News Article: Inside Ken Holland's challenge of rebuilding the Red Wings on the fly

[jolly roger]

Detroit's offense was 5th from bottom by goals per game, sixth from bottom by shots per game, PP 4th worst (despite having the 7th most PP time in the league), bottom third in shots against, and could only be bothered to score first in a game 27 times. Yeah, Mrazek shares some blame but no Detroit goaltender was getting much help from the 18 guys in front of him (they weren't winning much even when Howard was healthy and playing lights out). This team is a dumpster fire inside a tire fire underneath a giant radioactive turd Godzilla left at the center of the ruins of Tokyo. Pointing out the tire fire in this scenario as the root cause of the team's miserable performance is pretty silly.

As for AA, sure, why not flip him for whichever ineffective, over-the-hill dman that Kenny has had a hard-on for for six or seven years. What's the value of having a gifted, exciting player capable of scoring goals if you're just gonna staple him to the bench for minor infractions while letting non-contributing but "hard-working" plugs rack up 20 minutes of ice time a night killing penalties and chasing the puck around their own zone for the majority of their shifts. I know I sure tune in to watch our skill-less drones meet coach's low standards for "playing the game right," which is infinitely more rewarding than watching creative players score goals, even though the games are boring as hell and we lose anyways. I mean it's not like the point of professional sports is to entertain us or anything, right?

Omg. What a perfect analysis!

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Not really, more that the "success" of their current rebuild wouldn't have happened if they didn't have 10 years of failed rebuilding before it.

And I strongly disagree with the bolded being false. Debatable maybe?

http://thehockeywriters.com/the-culture-change-of-the-maple-leafs/



http://www.foxsports.com/nhl/story/babcock-lays-out-plans-to-run-a-tight-ship-in-toronto-063015

The lie is insinuating that's what we want.

We would rather the team focus on the rebuild BEFORE things get completely bongled and relationships between players, management, and the media erode to the point where it becomes as public as it was with Toronto.

 

[Pavels Dog]

The lie is insinuating that's what we want.

We would rather the team focus on the rebuild BEFORE things get completely bongled and relationships between players, management, and the media erode to the point where it becomes as public as it was with Toronto.

People here are very much asking for media to be more hostile to the Wings.

 

[Boomhower]

look at what Holland has done with Draft picks In the last 5 drafts (Including this year) dating back to 2013.

1st round picks: 5
2nd round picks: 5
3rd round picks:7
4th round picks: 5
5th round picks: 5
6th round picks: 6
7th round picks:6

Seems pretty committed to a rebuild to me. He is actually even or in the positive ledger in every round.

I mean people complain that veterans get spots while guys like Marchenko, Ferraro, Backstrom, Frk, Nestrasil, Nosek and Pulkinnen get waived. But I mean come on... these guys aren't rebuilding pieces, so who cares! It's irrelevant.

Janmark and Jarnkrok are basically the only young players that Holland possessed and lost (In last 5 years) that are actually capable NHLers. And they aren't needle pushers!

Holland does seem committed to keeping picks and advancing young talent in the last half decade when you look at actual facts.
People just like to rag on Holland and throw meltdowns over the smallest waiver transaction (or the typical Mrazek overreaction).

 

[Boomhower]

The lie is insinuating that's what we want.

We would rather the team focus on the rebuild BEFORE things get completely bongled and relationships between players, management, and the media erode to the point where it becomes as public as it was with Toronto.

Isn't that precisely what you want. The Leafs model?
Any team that tanks down to being complete garbage for 10 years like the Leafs will have problems with players and especially media.

And don't kid yourself, the Leafs wouldn't be who they are now if they weren't complete trash for 10 years.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

People here are very much asking for media to be more hostile to the Wings.

People are asking the media to make the Wings management more accountable for their actions. That is much different than looking for the Toronto media, which is completely cancerous (this is the same media that threw Murphy to the wolves back in the 90s before he came to us and lambasted them).

Isn't that precisely what you want. The Leafs model?
Any team that tanks down to being complete garbage for 10 years like the Leafs will have problems with players and especially media.

And don't kid yourself, the Leafs wouldn't be who they are now if they weren't complete trash for 10 years.

The Leafs model as it is currently described is not the Burke model. There is a big difference betwen what Burke was trying to do and what Shanahan and co. are trying to do currently.

 

[jkutswings]

Everything is fine. Just a blip. Ignore you could see the slide coming for years. Once Howard is healthy they'll be fine!

Cue dog sitting in a room of fire.

When you drag things out forever, people tend to fight it less:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog

 

[Syckle78]

look at what Holland has done with Draft picks In the last 5 drafts (Including this year) dating back to 2013.

1st round picks: 5
2nd round picks: 5
3rd round picks:7
4th round picks: 5
5th round picks: 5
6th round picks: 6
7th round picks:6

Seems pretty committed to a rebuild to me. He is actually even or in the positive ledger in every round.

I mean people complain that veterans get spots while guys like Marchenko, Ferraro, Backstrom, Frk, Nestrasil, Nosek and Pulkinnen get waived. But I mean come on... these guys aren't rebuilding pieces, so who cares! It's irrelevant.

Janmark and Jarnkrok are basically the only young players that Holland possessed and lost (In last 5 years) that are actually capable NHLers. And they aren't needle pushers!

Holland does seem committed to keeping picks and advancing young talent in the last half decade when you look at actual facts.
People just like to rag on Holland and throw meltdowns over the smallest waiver transaction (or the typical Mrazek overreaction).

All I get from this is that Holland and company can't draft and develop for **** with the middle of the pack and late picks. But,yea,I guess we should keep trying to go down that road.

 

[A II R]

Kenny needs to fire Blashill and hire Dave Tippett.

 

[jkutswings]

look at what Holland has done with Draft picks In the last 5 drafts (Including this year) dating back to 2013.

1st round picks: 5
2nd round picks: 5
3rd round picks:7
4th round picks: 5
5th round picks: 5
6th round picks: 6
7th round picks:6

Seems pretty committed to a rebuild to me. He is actually even or in the positive ledger in every round.

I mean people complain that veterans get spots while guys like Marchenko, Ferraro, Backstrom, Frk, Nestrasil, Nosek and Pulkinnen get waived. But I mean come on... these guys aren't rebuilding pieces, so who cares! It's irrelevant.

Janmark and Jarnkrok are basically the only young players that Holland possessed and lost (In last 5 years) that are actually capable NHLers. And they aren't needle pushers!

Holland does seem committed to keeping picks and advancing young talent in the last half decade when you look at actual facts.
People just like to rag on Holland and throw meltdowns over the smallest waiver transaction (or the typical Mrazek overreaction).

So you're saying that Holland has been trying to rebuild on the fly for 5 years now, and the team has gone from being one win from a Conference Finals, to missing the playoffs altogether...and, despite having 39 draft picks over that time frame, has no high-end talent to show for it?

Sounds like one of those cartoons, where they're in a board room, and there's a stock chart, where the graph falls past the bottom of the easel, and extends all the way to the floor. Great job rebuilding, Kenny.

 

[One Blurred Eye]

Kenny specifically said a trade would have to be for a player in the same age range, but sure, whatever.

Reading articles is overrated.

Ha, guilty there! But I'm not gonna waste my time presupposing a realistic trade to be made under those condition that could improve the team as it is, or that Holland would really do it, or that he wouldn't get fleeced in doing so. He either does nothing, or gives us another treadless veteran in FA, those are the options on Holland's menu. There's the things people say and the things people do--Holland can say whatever he wants to whomever, but his recent history has turned me from my youthful optimism to a crotchety, pessimistic, sardonic **** who won't bother with what Ken Holland says until he proves he can DO better, by trade or otherwise, or gets the hell out so someone else can try.

And to the other thread my yammering, what's the point of keeping guys like AA if you're just going to suffocate them in a system and organization that no longer seems particularly interested in rewarding their creativity and skill? Trade him for a bag of pucks and a used jock strap for all I care, let him thrive somewhere where he can bring joy to little kids and inspire the hockey players of tomorrow. If you're just going to leave him sitting at the end of the bench twiddling his thumbs another season, might as well flip him for something (mostly frustrated facetiousness here).

 

[Boomhower]

So you're saying that Holland has been trying to rebuild on the fly for 5 years now, and the team has gone from being one win from a Conference Finals, to missing the playoffs altogether...and, despite having 39 draft picks over that time frame, has no high-end talent to show for it?

Sounds like one of those cartoons, where they're in a board room, and there's a stock chart, where the graph falls past the bottom of the easel, and extends all the way to the floor. Great job rebuilding, Kenny.

Tyler Wright has proven to be a terrible choice for director of Amateur scouting.
The last 3 drafts have been awful.

I really like Larkin and Svechnikov.
But I think Cholowski was a bad pick and every single pick outside the 1st round has been complete trash the last 3 years... with the exception of Hronek.

Hopefully he turns that around this year!

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Sambrook could be good and smith needs another year to determine me thinks. So yeah if he busts this draftn and smith and sambrook take bad turns we should get rid of him probably. It's like a 50% chance it's a good pick at that point and I don't want a coin flip in the first round

 

[jkutswings]

Tyler Wright has proven to be a terrible choice for director of Amateur scouting.
The last 3 drafts have been awful.

I really like Larkin and Svechnikov.
But I think Cholowski was a bad pick and every single pick outside the 1st round has been complete trash the last 3 years... with the exception of Hronek.

Hopefully he turns that around this year!

I really liked Nyquist and Tatar too. And they turned into fine secondary pieces. Which is exactly what I expect Larkin and Svech to end up as. And the hamster wheel of being on either side of the bubble continues.

Considering that the avenues of major trades and RFA signings have been written off, and that major free agents no longer want to come here...until they take their medicine, be downright horrendous for a few years, and hopefully hit on a top 2 or top 3 pick (or two), the odds of making significant strides are stacked against them.

 

[Boomhower]

Sambrook could be good and smith needs another year to determine me thinks. So yeah if he busts this draftn and smith and sambrook take bad turns we should get rid of him probably. It's like a 50% chance it's a good pick at that point and I don't want a coin flip in the first round

Sambrook was just a product of a stacked team. I've seen him play many times and he is nothing special. I have no hope for him.
Smith might've had a future in the old NHL. But he can't skate and fighting has been removed. I guess you can't completely write him off yet, because he does some things well. But he is a long shot at best... which is disappointing for a recent 2nd .

 

[Run the Jewels]

Tyler Wright has proven to be a terrible choice for director of Amateur scouting.
The last 3 drafts have been awful.

I really like Larkin and Svechnikov.
But I think Cholowski was a bad pick and every single pick outside the 1st round has been complete trash the last 3 years... with the exception of Hronek.

Hopefully he turns that around this year!

If you are feeling charitable you can label Red Wings drafting downright mediocre over the past 18 or so years.

 

[Winger98]

I really liked Nyquist and Tatar too. And they turned into fine secondary pieces. Which is exactly what I expect Larkin and Svech to end up as. And the hamster wheel of being on either side of the bubble continues.

Considering that the avenues of major trades and RFA signings have been written off, and that major free agents no longer want to come here...until they take their medicine, be downright horrendous for a few years, and hopefully hit on a top 2 or top 3 pick (or two), the odds of making significant strides are stacked against them.

Nyquist and Tatar aren't from the last three drafts, though.

Tyler Wright has proven to be a terrible choice for director of Amateur scouting.
The last 3 drafts have been awful.

I really like Larkin and Svechnikov.
But I think Cholowski was a bad pick and every single pick outside the 1st round has been complete trash the last 3 years... with the exception of Hronek.

Hopefully he turns that around this year!

I like JVP and Saarijarvi, too. This next season is going to be a big year for Ehn, Holmstrom, and Pearson. They can either establish themselves towards the top of our prospect list, or do some serious damage to their statures.

 

[Boomhower]

I really liked Nyquist and Tatar too. And they turned into fine secondary pieces. Which is exactly what I expect Larkin and Svech to end up as. And the hamster wheel of being on either side of the bubble continues.

.

I'm confident Larkin is legit and is going to grow into a 2 way beast of a centre.
Really like Svech, but you may be right, he could top out at 25 goals and 55/60 points (ala Tatar). So a great NHL winger.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Sambrook was just a product of a stacked team. I've seen him play many times and he is nothing special. I have no hope for him.
Smith might've had a future in the old NHL. But he can't skate and fighting has been removed. I guess you can't completely write him off yet, because he does some things well. But he is a long shot at best... which is disappointing for a recent 2nd .

No he wasn't. It helped but he still put up good numbers. And is rock solid in the dzone. At worst if he makes it he's a bottom pair dman (wow that's never happened in Detroit before) but still that's a good steal. He has a shot he can score 10 goals

I never really liked smith. He's the big physical guy that the casual fans Love and they were calling him a future top sixer shanahan type player.

 

[HIFE]

Doubt a deal gets done around AA that doesn't have us also add to get it done.

I would rather just move assets to other teams, get draft picks, and build through the draft. A trade for one defenseman who may not even be a high end top pairing guy is not going to help us at this juncture.

This. While rebuilding on the fly every year is the same mantra to "improve our defense." I remember even before Lidstrom retired. We did get Green but nothing more. I think that window is shut, or should be now. Build through the lottery and as many of you guys are saying simply stand pat. As OBE said AA is a unique and creative player It'd be a shame to trade him away for an empty desire to be competitive.

Man we are going to be rebuilding on the fly forever.

 

[Pavels Dog]

So you're saying that Holland has been trying to rebuild on the fly for 5 years now, and the team has gone from being one win from a Conference Finals, to missing the playoffs altogether...and, despite having 39 draft picks over that time frame, has no high-end talent to show for it?

Sounds like one of those cartoons, where they're in a board room, and there's a stock chart, where the graph falls past the bottom of the easel, and extends all the way to the floor. Great job rebuilding, Kenny.

5 years is nothing. Not even guys like AA, Mrazek, XO etc are done developing. No need to even mention the picks of the last few years. The benefit of top 10 picks is not just talent, it's development time.

 

[Reddwit]

https://theathletic.com/69497/2017/06/22/athanasiou-could-be-the-price-to-upgrade-red-wings-defense/

Doubt a deal gets done around AA that doesn't have us also add to get it done.

I would rather just move assets to other teams, get draft picks, and build through the draft. A trade for one defenseman who may not even be a high end top pairing guy is not going to help us at this juncture.

I'd be very surprised if Detroit found a defenseman good enough that they'd be willing to trade away AA. Partly because they tend to over value their own players quite a bit.

I picture Holland calling about guys like Barkov, Werenski, and Trouba...and getting laughed off the phone each time.

Their is no good young dman mean that could be add for AA.

Either we add or we simply trade for a meh player

Just trade for picks and prospects

Reading between the lines, the defenseman that's giving rise to this talk is probably Dumba. He's the right age, plays the right style, the right side, and is damaged-enough goods that he likely wouldn't be so outrageous to pursue that Holland would turn away.

Athanasiou + Sheahan (in a lame attempt to replace Haula) for Dumba.

And before anyone responds about how Dumba is worth the sun and the moon because he put up 34 points - spare me. If you haven't followed the guy, don't bother telling me all about his stats - I know he's got points. But the guy is known for his Smith-like hiccups and has had rumors surrounding him about his decision-making and IQ basically since his NHL career started. He's been in the rumor mill for over a year now. Points aside, the guy has been dogged by not one but two NHL coaches now in Minnesota. His value is closer to Justin Schultz circa 14-15 (not as bad as 15-16, mind you) than Jacob Trouba circa 16-17. There's no way he'd land a similarly aged top 6 center, and I'm sure Minny knows that. They're probably looking for a young, cheap forward with room to grow; They have little use for another top 4 defenseman - they already have 4 other machines back there - and they can't really afford big expenditures elsewhere given all the big money they still have due all over their roster.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

5 years is nothing. Not even guys like AA, Mrazek, XO etc are done developing. No need to even mention the picks of the last few years. The benefit of top 10 picks is not just talent, it's development time.

Dude XO is waiver wire trash. Dude turns 24 next month and doesn't even have 100 NHL games played. His future is a #5-6 defenseman.

AA is a speedy winger

Mrazek...lol

If you don't know what you have after five years, you know what you have. Absolutely nothing.

No team has the luxury of taking 5+ years to assess if their draft picks are busts. Especially teams that have almost no talent at every position.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

So long as Holland dosbt trade for any one over 25 I will call today a success

Trade roster players for picks and prospects

Don't trade down in the draft

 

[jkutswings]

Dude XO is waiver wire trash. Dude turns 24 next month and doesn't even have 100 NHL games played. His future is a #5-6 defenseman.

AA is a speedy winger

Mrazek...lol

If you don't know what you have after five years, you know what you have. Absolutely nothing.

No team has the luxury of taking 5+ years to assess if their draft picks are busts. Especially teams that have almost no talent at every position.

Exactly. While I certainly don't expect guys taken outside the top 5 to be perennial Calder candidates, if a forward isn't making noise by his 3rd year, the odds of him ever being an impact player at the NHL level are slim. Defensemen get a little longer leash, but acting like 5 years is nothing for player evaluations is being too patient in today's NHL.

Not to mention the contract implications of continuing to over ripen players, having fewer of their cheap years with the big club.