Confirmed with Link: Hartley Fired Discuss (also Cloutier)

Calculon

unholy acting talent
Jan 20, 2006
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I think too much may be being made of this whole adjustment thing. It didn't happen over 82 games of the previous year, it didn't happen over a 6-game series with the same team (although the Canucks are and were terrible, I'll grant you), and then it happened over the summer? I don't think so, personally. I don't believe that the other 29 GMs spent their summer gameplanning to beat the Flames.

But it's possible.

End of the day, it's done. There is some excitement, I'll admit, at the thought of a fresh face.

Not a lot of time to analyze and figure out the weaknesses of 29 other teams during an 82 game grind of a season, especially when you play the majority of teams only twice. But the playoffs are a different matter; there's one opponent and huge implications behind a win, meaning organizations work a lot harder to identify strategies and potential weaknesses to exploit.

Which is exactly what the Ducks did. And when that happens, other organizations tend to take notice too. And coaches do gameplan in the summer; at least quite few talk about. Granted, not every coach; guys like Tortorella (and Hartley hilariously enough) preach playing the same way, regardless of opponent. Unsurprisingly, these types of coaches have very short shelf lives.

And yeah, seems like there's going to be a lot of change this off season. A bad year gives Treliving the ammunition to shape the roster much more to his preference than a surprise second round playoff appearance.
 

Anglesmith

Setting up the play?
Sep 17, 2012
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That is not true at all. Our defensive play was pretty bad when we made the playoffs too. Those moment were not as common as this year, but were still far too common. The biggest differences are the PK and goaltending,

Here are some numbers to compare:

2014-15 | Stat | 2015-16 | ----- | Difference
202 | Goals Against* | 241 | | +39
36 | Powerplay GA | 57 | | +21
2381 | Shots Against | 2361 | | -20
2179 | Saves | 2120 | | -59
.915 | Save% | .898 | | -.017
*excluding empty netters

Our shoits against was surprisingly similar, but our PPGA rose by more than 50%, most of which can be attributed to goaltending.

Now to be clear, I am not just blaming the goaltending. It was certainly terrible this year, but I also believe it was better both last year and this year than the numbers tell us and that would be due to poor defensive play in front if the goalies in both seasons.

I just don't know what to say other than that qualitatively, I felt there was a big difference in the way we protected dangerous areas in our own end between last year and this year. I thought we got a lot more careless. And it's not just in terms of what happens after the other team has the puck. It's not getting the puck out, not getting the puck deep, turning the puck over in bad spots and generally putting the team in a bad position. But also running around in our own zone. I thought we were more passive the previous season, and had more of a tendency to chase this season.

Again, I'm not claiming we suppressed shots worse or anything. I really just think it was the type of opportunities we gave up that were our downfall.
 

Lunatik

Registered User
Oct 12, 2012
56,255
8,385
Could be that Hartley's system was simply figured out, that it was no longer effective and he couldn't adapt. Would match Treliving's statement that Bob Hartley took the team as far as he could. And would match what a lot of people here were saying all season.

Don't see discipline as the problem; it wasn't like players were abandoning the system in place to chase opponents around or a lot of them taking lazy penalties. What I do remember a lot of, was two defenders (Usually Brodie and Giordano) standing on either side of the net watching opposing players either skate into the slot and score, or make easy passes from behind the net to some one wide open in front of the goalie. Repeatedly, game after game.

That's why I see this as a system's issue, rather than players tuning out an intense coach.
a 25% increase in times shorthanded is definitely a problem
 

Lunatik

Registered User
Oct 12, 2012
56,255
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I just don't know what to say other than that qualitatively, I felt there was a big difference in the way we protected dangerous areas in our own end between last year and this year. I thought we got a lot more careless. And it's not just in terms of what happens after the other team has the puck. It's not getting the puck out, not getting the puck deep, turning the puck over in bad spots and generally putting the team in a bad position. But also running around in our own zone. I thought we were more passive the previous season, and had more of a tendency to chase this season.

Again, I'm not claiming we suppressed shots worse or anything. I really just think it was the type of opportunities we gave up that were our downfall.

We definitely gave up more quality scoring chances this year; but it's not like we went from good to bad defensively, we went from bad to terrible.
 

1989

Registered User
Aug 3, 2010
10,409
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Official press release: http://flames.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=881275
CALGARY, AB -- The Bob Hartley era is over in Calgary.

The Calgary Flames have relieved Hartley of his coaching duties after missing the playoffs for the third time in four seasons under his tutelage.

Hartley – the 15th head coach in franchise history – was informed of the decision early this morning.

“Today is a tough day,” said Flames GM Brad Treliving, who also announced associate coach Jacques Cloutier would not be returning next season. “I want to thank Bob. He did a lot of good things here. He built a foundation with this organization, and apart from all else, he put his heart and soul into this team. He bled for this team and Bob is a good coach.

“I want to make sure this is very clear; this is my decision. I debated this for a while and in the last couple of days we’ve come to it. We had an owners’ meeting and I made my recommendation and we moved forward.”

Hartley was hired by the Flames in May 2012, a mere month after claiming the Swiss Championship with the ZSC Lions.

He had one year remaining on his contract after receiving a two-year extension in December 2014.

The Flames advanced to the second round of the 2015 playoffs under Hartley’s watch but relapsed and missed the playoffs for the third time in four seasons.

“Any time you go through a situation that a coach is being relieved, there is blood on a lot of hands,” Treliving said. “It starts with myself; there is responsibility with the players and it goes through the organization. But when you go through the process, which I have gone through over the course of the last couple weeks, I just felt Bob had taken this team as far as he can take it.

“Each coach has their own style and their own way of doing things. Bob is able to get a lot out of players, but when we sat back and reviewed the season, I felt for us to move forward as an organization it was time, it was critical that we made this decision now.”

A decision that Treliving said was based on an entire body of work rather than a snap shot.

“I don’t think you make decisions in short periods of time,” he said. “This isn’t a six-game, eight-game situation. Last year, Bob was extended during the middle of an eight-game losing streak. Each day that goes by is another page in the file and, at a particular time, you make a decision once the season is done. That’s what we did.

“I think a lot of Bob. I wanted to go through a thorough evaluation and didn’t want to act on emotion. I think you make the best decisions on clear, hard evidence. You challenge it, you rehash it, and then you maybe make a decision. And once that decision is made it is imperative that you let that person know as quickly as possible, and we did that.”

Hartley became the first Flames coach to win the Jack Adams Award as the NHL’s coach of the year after guiding Calgary to a playoff berth in 2015.

However, the Flames floundered in certain areas of their game this season, specifically puck possession and on special teams. Calgary owned the league’s lease effective penalty kill and the 22nd ranked power play.

“I think in today’s game, you need to hold the puck,” Treliving said. “You need to work like hell to get it and once you’ve got it, you’ve got to hold onto it and play with it. You break down the chances that we give up and you have to have to be able to defend in this league. Special teams, those are critical areas to have any type of success. I don’t want to point and say that Bob didn’t feel any of those were important, he does, but you go through the process and ultimately you come to a decision.”

Overall, the 55-year-old Hartley compiled a regular season record of 134-135-25 with Calgary over four seasons.

“When you go through the process, you ask yourself are we going to maximize the ability from our players as we’re currently constructing,” Treliving said. “This is not letting players off the hook. This is on a lot of other people that need to take responsibility as well, myself included. When you have a day like today, it’s not one person’s undoing.”

Treliving also made it clear that the decision was not based on a potential replacement waiting in the wings.

“Today’s decision was not made upon anybody else sitting on the on-deck circle. Today is about Bob,” stated Treliving. “This isn’t about having a prettier girl at the dance. The process will start today. I’ve got a profile in my mind of what I’m looking for. I’ve got a good idea what can give us success, what can drag success out of our group. But as far as a timetable, we’re going to start the process today. We’re going to be thorough, we’ll be extensive, and we will find the right match.

“This is a very important decision. Today is a difficult day and we’ll deal with today. From this point forward, we’ll start looking for that new person.”

Treliving admitted today’s decision was, without question, the most difficult one has had to make since taking over the GM reins in April 2014.

“You’re dealing with people and with trades and all that stuff and you guys have heard me talk about that. The human element is important,” he said. “This is a good man who cared so those are hard decisions. These are not made by chance; this is not fantasy hockey. You’re dealing with people. Good people. You have to make decisions that you think are right no matter how difficult they are and that’s the job.”

“He wears his heart on his sleeve and cares. It was a tough day. He’s a pro. He enjoyed working here. We talked and shook hands when it was over and he took it as I would have expected.”

Hartley led the American Hockey League’s Hershey Bears to a Calder Cup in 1997, before capturing the Stanley Cup with the Colorado Avalanche in 2001. He also coached the Atlanta Thrashers for parts of five seasons.

Flames assistant coach Martin Gelinas, goaltender coach Jordan Sigalet and video coach Jamie Pringle will all remain with the organization.
 

WTG

December 5th
Jan 11, 2015
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Since you guys are discussing which potential coaches replace Hartley I'll give my 2 cents about Travis Green.

I've watched the Comets for 2 full seasons now and I really like coach Green. But not coach comes without their flaws. I'll start off talking about how I really dislike his conservatism when it comes to playing young players. Green can be very stubborn about inserting young players into a young lineup. Last year, right before the playoffs he was given Virtanen, McCann and Hutton. Hutton only played a few games and was sat out for most of the playoffs. Virtanen only managed to play when there was an injury. McCann didn't play at all. This was my huge gripe with Travis Green, I thought all 3 of these players deserved at least a good chance of playing on the team regularly. I said so at the time, now that all 3 of those players played in the NHL I feel very justified in saying that Travis Green was wrong here.

I don't blame him for messing up or even see it as a huge negative. Travis Green is very much a new comer to being a head coach. It makes sense that he's a bit conservative and plays by the books.



For his systems, I must admit I do not know much about systems so I'll try my best to describe the way Green's teams play. Green loves to start the offense from the defense. Much like Hartley, however, he doesn't rely on gimmicky stretch passes like Hartley does. Rather he relies on puck possession and getting the D involved into the play. This kind of system works well with very mobile defensemen that can join in on the rush or carry the puck up the ice. In the offensive zone he likes his forwards very much behind the goal line grinding it out and passing the puck back to the point stretching out the defense.

Green allows his grinders to grind and his skill players to play a skill game. He's a very versatile coach. You can see this by just looking at the end of the season roster that Utica had. The team had 2 regular defensemen and one of them was a rookie (Subban). The rest were all PTO's, but somehow he managed to turn that team into a playoff team. Unfortunately he didn't manage to win in the playoffs primary because someone decided to trade away his best player (I'm still salty about Shinkaruk). But anyway, overall I'd say he's a good coach but also a very young coach. If you hire him you will have growing pains. But if you stick with him long term you won't regret it. Green's also a very good possession coach.

Sorry if this is a incomprehensible mess of a post. I am ESL #excusesforpoorenglish.
 

Anglesmith

Setting up the play?
Sep 17, 2012
46,483
14,802
Victoria
We definitely gave up more quality scoring chances this year; but it's not like we went from good to bad defensively, we went from bad to terrible.

I dunno. I thought we defended a lot, rather than defending poorly. It's like in soccer. When you see the really good teams play against the really bad teams, the strategy for the really bad team is typically to play as safe as possible, take no risks, and then strike when the other team opens up, usually later in the game. The better team has the ball a ton, but not because the worse team is defending poorly; just because they aren't over-pressuring. It takes extreme discipline to do that well, but if done properly it can be effective.

That's how I saw the Flames playing last season. They didn't have the puck a lot, but they controlled how they lost the puck and made sure that the other team had a tough time scoring despite having possession. They managed to keep themselves in just about every game.
 

Lunatik

Registered User
Oct 12, 2012
56,255
8,385
Who's Kevin Dineen?

Assistant coach for the Hawks for 2 years now and former Panthers coach. He had a 56-62-28 record in 2 and a part seasons as head coach in FLA. He led the Panthers to the playoffs in his first year, but in year 2 (lockout year), they performed terribly. But had goaltending issues and lost 2 of his 3 top scorers (Weiss to injury for almost 2/3 of the season and Versteeg to trade). Prior to that he had been the head coach in Portland for 6 seasons.

You would have to think he's picked up a thing or two working with Coach Q.

Dineen was also a pretty damn good hockey player, as an undersized guy playing through the mid-80 and the 90s. 2200+ PIMs while recording 355 goals and 760 points in 1188 games.
 

Lunatik

Registered User
Oct 12, 2012
56,255
8,385
I dunno. I thought we defended a lot, rather than defending poorly. It's like in soccer. When you see the really good teams play against the really bad teams, the strategy for the really bad team is typically to play as safe as possible, take no risks, and then strike when the other team opens up, usually later in the game. The better team has the ball a ton, but not because the worse team is defending poorly; just because they aren't over-pressuring. It takes extreme discipline to do that well, but if done properly it can be effective.

That's how I saw the Flames playing last season. They didn't have the puck a lot, but they controlled how they lost the puck and made sure that the other team had a tough time scoring despite having possession. They managed to keep themselves in just about every game.
You can never play safe and utilize the stretch pass though, that is one of the riskiest plays because it requires at least one forward cheating at all times. They played safer when hemmed in, sure; but as soon as they had the puck they switched to risky and turned over the puck alot.
 

L13

Registered User
Oct 1, 2015
1,226
94
Since you guys are discussing which potential coaches replace Hartley I'll give my 2 cents about Travis Green.

I've watched the Comets for 2 full seasons now and I really like coach Green. But not coach comes without their flaws. I'll start off talking about how I really dislike his conservatism when it comes to playing young players. Green can be very stubborn about inserting young players into a young lineup. Last year, right before the playoffs he was given Virtanen, McCann and Hutton. Hutton only played a few games and was sat out for most of the playoffs. Virtanen only managed to play when there was an injury. McCann didn't play at all. This was my huge gripe with Travis Green, I thought all 3 of these players deserved at least a good chance of playing on the team regularly. I said so at the time, now that all 3 of those players played in the NHL I feel very justified in saying that Travis Green was wrong here.

I don't blame him for messing up or even see it as a huge negative. Travis Green is very much a new comer to being a head coach. It makes sense that he's a bit conservative and plays by the books.



For his systems, I must admit I do not know much about systems so I'll try my best to describe the way Green's teams play. Green loves to start the offense from the defense. Much like Hartley, however, he doesn't rely on gimmicky stretch passes like Hartley does. Rather he relies on puck possession and getting the D involved into the play. This kind of system works well with very mobile defensemen that can join in on the rush or carry the puck up the ice. In the offensive zone he likes his forwards very much behind the goal line grinding it out and passing the puck back to the point stretching out the defense.

Green allows his grinders to grind and his skill players to play a skill game. He's a very versatile coach. You can see this by just looking at the end of the season roster that Utica had. The team had 2 regular defensemen and one of them was a rookie (Subban). The rest were all PTO's, but somehow he managed to turn that team into a playoff team. Unfortunately he didn't manage to win in the playoffs primary because someone decided to trade away his best player (I'm still salty about Shinkaruk). But anyway, overall I'd say he's a good coach but also a very young coach. If you hire him you will have growing pains. But if you stick with him long term you won't regret it. Green's also a very good possession coach.

Sorry if this is a incomprehensible mess of a post. I am ESL #excusesforpoorenglish.

Thank you for this report! It's great to have such detailed impressions of his coaching style.
 

Anglesmith

Setting up the play?
Sep 17, 2012
46,483
14,802
Victoria
You can never play safe and utilize the stretch pass though, that is one of the riskiest plays because it requires at least one forward cheating at all times. They played safer when hemmed in, sure; but as soon as they had the puck they switched to risky and turned over the puck alot.

Not really. I honestly think the frequency with which the Flames utilized the stretch pass is over-emphasized on this board. Was there a lot of stretch-passing last year and the year before? Sure, but there was way more passing up the boards and chipping it out into the neutral zone during our successful season. Frustratingly so. I didn't appreciate it at the time, but it was a very safe way to play. At the time, I just hated how we never seemed to have anyone up-ice waiting for breakout passes.
 

JurassicTunga

it is what it is
Mar 21, 2010
7,603
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Good luck to Hartley and Cloutier. Hope they land on their feet again soon. I'm personally hoping for Boudreau.
 

Lunatik

Registered User
Oct 12, 2012
56,255
8,385
So some of the coaches potentially available:

Bruce Boudreau (unemplayed)
Kevin Dineen (asst. CHI)
Paul MacLean (asst. AHM)
Mike Yeo (unemployed)
Travis Green (HC Utica Comets)
Dave Cameron (unemployed)
Guy Boucher (unemployed)
Claude Noel (unemployed)
Marc Crawford (unemployed)
Ted Nolan(unemployed)
Randy Carlyle (unemployed)
Ron Wilson (unemployed)
Jim Playfair (asst. ARZ)
John Stevens (asst. LAK)
Shelodn Keefe (HC Toronta Marlies)
Rick "Killer" Kowalsky (HC Albany Devils)
Dean Evason (HC Milwaukee Admirals)
Dallas Eakins (HC San Diego Gulls)


I am not suggesting these coaches, just listing coaches that could be available.
 

OvermanKingGainer

#BennettFreed #CurseofTheSpulll #FreeOliver
Feb 3, 2015
16,133
7,107
2022 Cup to Calgary
It's too bad Hartley was fired but pretty inevitible.

Not Hartley's fault Treliving waived Byron though while giving Brandon Bollig and Mason Raymond roster spots on a platter triggering a team culture that playing defense was less important than facepunching or gettin' paid.

Will be interesting to see who is up.
 

Fig

Absolute Horse Shirt
Dec 15, 2014
12,981
8,455
Good luck Bob! Thanks for the entertaining hockey!
 

DCDM

Da Rink Cats
Mar 24, 2008
38,094
6,426
Calgary
It's too bad Hartley was fired but pretty inevitible.

Not Hartley's fault Treliving waived Byron though while giving Brandon Bollig and Mason Raymond roster spots on a platter triggering a team culture that playing defense was less important than facepunching or gettin' paid.

Will be interesting to see who is up.

Oh, are we still on the Byron thing? Get over it.
 

TheHudlinator

Registered User
Nov 21, 2011
28,824
7,602
Victoria,BC
It's too bad Hartley was fired but pretty inevitible.

Not Hartley's fault Treliving waived Byron though while giving Brandon Bollig and Mason Raymond roster spots on a platter triggering a team culture that playing defense was less important than facepunching or gettin' paid.

Will be interesting to see who is up.

That Raymond contact was terrible the second it was signed and it's only gotten worse.
 
May 27, 2012
17,070
856
Earth
The flames capitalized on the Pacific division being ass.

I think we won like 6-7 games this season compared to the 18-19 wins last season.
 

Skobel24

#Ignited
May 23, 2008
16,789
920
Winnipeg
I'm fine with this. Hartley wasn't a Treliving hire. I don't think Treliving and Burke ever saw Hartley as their guy. However, after the team went to the playoffs, I think they had to see if he could continue to get results. He was given the chance, and it didn't work.

I am a bit bothered by Gelinas remaining though. The special teams were a ****ing disaster.
 

OvermanKingGainer

#BennettFreed #CurseofTheSpulll #FreeOliver
Feb 3, 2015
16,133
7,107
2022 Cup to Calgary
Oh, are we still on the Byron thing? Get over it.

No, we're still on the "team defensive culture was crap last year while guys like Bollig, Jones, Stajan, Wideman, Raymond severely underperformed but went unpunished with the exception of a very late demotion for Raymond that probably won't even stand going into next year's camp, and everyone continues to blame goaltending which was only a small part of the problem."

I'll get over it when slow, unskilled, underperforming vets are gone.
 

Dertell

Registered User
Jul 14, 2015
2,923
474
I dunno. I thought we defended a lot, rather than defending poorly.
They're the same thing. A smaller ℅ of shot allowed will come directly from breakaways and the like if you "defend a lot" because the opponent can't make zone entries when they're already in your zone. Needless to say, this creates a false perception of being good at keeping opponent on the outside.
 

DCDM

Da Rink Cats
Mar 24, 2008
38,094
6,426
Calgary
No, we're still on the "team defensive culture was crap last year while guys like Bollig, Jones, Stajan, Wideman, Raymond severely underperformed but went unpunished with the exception of a very late demotion for Raymond that probably won't even stand going into next year's camp, and everyone continues to blame goaltending which was only a small part of the problem."

I'll get over it when slow, unskilled, underperforming vets are gone.

So if the Flames were to punish and demote every player you just mentioned, then please explain what kind of team they were supposed to ice. The guys down in Stockton? Congratulations, you just became the Oilers. Handing NHL spots to young players before they're ready.

You crying about Byron being gone for what is now the ninth month after the fact doesn't do anything to help your argument. [MOD] Get over it.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Anglesmith

Setting up the play?
Sep 17, 2012
46,483
14,802
Victoria
They're the same thing. A smaller ℅ of shot allowed will come directly from breakaways and the like if you "defend a lot" because the opponent can't make zone entries when they're already in your zone. Needless to say, this creates a false perception of being good at keeping opponent on the outside.

I mean, yeah, the conflation of shots and good shots is fundamental to a lot of statistical approaches. It just isn't an assumption I'm comfortable with.
 

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