Confirmed with Link: Hartley Fired Discuss (also Cloutier)

[RedHot]

Should he be the coach going forward? Why or why not?

I personally think he's a poor coach, but am curious to see why others would prefer to keep him.

And any other suitable candidates can be discussed as well.

Click to read more...

 

[InfinityIggy]

I'd like to keep him and see how we do next season with some actually decent goaltending (fingers crossed).

All coaches have a shelf life and I think this is probably Hartley's last season here anyways.

 

[BigRangy]

His offensive schemes clearly work. This team can score goals above its talent level. The defensive systems do not seem to work. I don't know of this is because the flames have a group of players who aren't good defensively, or if the flames defensive system is not getting the most of said players. I know people will point to corsi and the other entry-level fancy stats, but you and I both know that NHL teams can use much more complex analytical tools than Joe public can. Are the tools the Flames are using the right ones? I don't know, and only success can really give you the answer. I have a hunch about their statistical philosophy, but I would need a lot of non-publically-available data to confirm it. All I've seen so far is that Bob got a lot out of a fairly objectively bad group of players in the last two seasons, with nearly everybody having a career year during that duration.

That being said, I'm all on the Bruce Boudreau train when he gets fired.

 

[Lunatik]

none of our defensemen are known for their defensive play

 

[Anglesmith]

They aren't an elite roster, and Bob coaches a style that demands the utmost discipline in the neutral zone and defensive end. They got away from that at the beginning of last season and struggled to get back to it. I think the players thought they were better because of the success of the previous year.

Anyway, I think we'll see a refocused squad this season. At the end of the day, after Hartley's Jack Adams season, you owe it to the man to make certain that the coach is the problem before going in search of another one.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

I think if an elite coach, Vigneault, Boudreau come available, I think you have to consider it.

But I've said this before and I'll say it again. The team never bought in this year. Tough to blame a coach when the team just didn't play well. At times we look like the Blackhawks. I want to see what Hartleys system looks like when the team actually cares. Look at Dallas. They designed their system after us and went from a non-playoff team to first in the west.

I think Hartleu gets one more year. If we struggle then look for a high profile guy or an assistant like Kevin Dineen.

 

[Fig]

none of our defensemen are known for their defensive play

Agreed. I mentioned in the other thread, 5 of our main Dmen are offense first guys.

Gio
Brodie
Hamilton
Wideman
Nakladal

our defense first minded guys. Mostly bottom pairing guys.
Smid
Engelland
Jokipakka
Wotherspoon
Russell



TWO seasons ago (ploffs) we had 3 offense first guys

Gio
Brodie
Wideman

vs

Schlemko
Russell
Diaz
Smid
Engelland


Hartley may possibly have been given an inferior "defense" corps plus an inferior goalie situation this season, but I also feel like the "attack first" dmen mentality didn't help. I wouldn't mind the stats on that if available. Either way, I think it's too early to turf Hartley. Hartley will be gone only if a great candidate comes along. It's better to stick with the guy than do a revolving door of meh candidates IMO.

 

[Lunatik]

Agreed. I mentioned in the other thread, 5 of our main Dmen are offense first guys.

Gio
Brodie
Hamilton
Wideman
Nakladal

our defense first minded guys. Mostly bottom pairing guys.
Smid
Engelland
Jokipakka
Wotherspoon
Russell



TWO seasons ago (ploffs) we had 3 offense first guys

Gio
Brodie
Wideman

vs

Schlemko
Russell
Diaz
Smid
Engelland


Hartley may possibly have been given an inferior "defense" corps plus an inferior goalie situation this season, but I also feel like the "attack first" dmen mentality didn't help. I wouldn't mind the stats on that if available. Either way, I think it's too early to turf Hartley. Hartley will be gone only if a great candidate comes along. It's better to stick with the guy than do a revolving door of meh candidates IMO.

Nakladal is not an offense first guy. He's a defensive defenseman with a bomb from the point

 

[Fig]

Nakladal is not an offense first guy. He's a defensive defenseman with a bomb from the point

Ehh...?

Maybe he seems more offense first because he was paired with Wotherspoon? My mistake if that's the case.

 

[tfong]

I like Bob. His style creates an interesting game to watch. Not the greatest defensive system but its entertaining.

Just need to bring in a really solid stay at home type.

 

[Johnny GODreau]

I like Bob. His style creates an interesting game to watch. Not the greatest defensive system but its entertaining.

Just need to bring in a really solid stay at home type.

Bingo.

 

[tfong]

I mean the alternative is to watch like....super defensive hockey and get a few more wins, but i'd be bored out of mind.

 

[1989]

I'll take Boudreau in Calgary. Not likely to happen, but I can definitely hope. Team needs more regular season success before they can even think of post-season, so Boudreau could be a good stop-gap.

 

[MonyontheMoney]

Who cares if his systems create an entertaining game? His job is to win, and if he's not able to do that then he should not have a job.

Having said that, I think it could go either way, but I believe he gets one more year.

 

[Lunatik]

Ehh...?

Maybe he seems more offense first because he was paired with Wotherspoon? My mistake if that's the case.

In Calgary's system it encourages defensemen to jump into the play, so guys who are defensive minded will look more offensive. Look at Jokipakka in Dallas and here, his production level doubled

 

[Johnny GODreau]

Who cares if his systems create an entertaining game? His job is to win, and if he's not able to do that then he should not have a job.

Having said that, I think it could go either way, but I believe he gets one more year.

The fans..

 

[MonyontheMoney]

The fans..

Last I checked the fans don't determine if a coach is fired or not...

Management will not simply keep a coach around because the fans are entertained by his systems, fans will support winning hockey just as much.

 

[RedHot]

The fans..

I'd be pretty entertained if the Flames were in the playoffs.

Regardless, the Flames have Gaudreau, Brodie and others, and I don't think there is a coach who could make then not entertaining.

 

[1989]

I'd be pretty entertained if the Flames were in the playoffs.

Regardless, the Flames have Gaudreau, Brodie and others, and I don't think there is a coach who could make then not entertaining.

Tortorella and Yeo.

 

[The Gnome]

This team is garbage on paper, but we do have some budding young talents and the blueline should be better next year if they stay healthy. Hartley deserves another year.

 

[Johnny GODreau]

Last I checked the fans don't determine if a coach is fired or not...

Management will not simply keep a coach around because the fans are entertained by his systems, fans will support winning hockey just as much.

Management cares as well. They want an entertaining product on ice.

I'd be pretty entertained if the Flames were in the playoffs.

Regardless, the Flames have Gaudreau, Brodie and others, and I don't think there is a coach who could make then not entertaining.

Brent Sutter.

 

[Dertell]

His offensive schemes clearly work. This team can score goals above its talent level.

How? Everyone who had fluky career year in shooting% back in 2014-15 - Stajan, Bouma, Wideman, Hudler, Jooris - saw that number regress. They had a 2.1 GF60 at 5-on-5 when Backlund was off the ice (bottom 10), the second worst bottom 6 point/60 and the 21st powerplay in the league.

What left is Colborne and a bunch of players who were or should have been expected to score a lot, score.

The defensive systems do not seem to work. I don't know of this is because the flames have a group of players who aren't good defensively, or if the flames defensive system is not getting the most of said players.

Statistically speaking, poor team defense is sustainable while player defense (not just sv%rel, CA60Rel & scoring chances as well) is not.

I know people will point to corsi and the other entry-level fancy stats, but you and I both know that NHL teams can use much more complex analytical tools than Joe public can. Are the tools the Flames are using the right ones? I don't know, and only success can really give you the answer. I have a hunch about their statistical philosophy, but I would need a lot of non-publically-available data to confirm it. All I've seen so far is that Bob got a lot out of a fairly objectively bad group of players in the last two seasons, with nearly everybody having a career year during that duration.

I am willing to bet hundreds of dollars these much more complex analytical tools would never be used to defy the regime/coaches' philosophy and instead exist to justify/confirm it. So when a statistic doesn't support the stance or a popular belief in the house they're ignored because "misusing statistics is bad" and "need balance between eyetest and analytic" talking points. Kinda like here in a way. Useful for PR, but not progress.

Frustrating because I can't really prove it, but they're humans. No one will truly challenge their own philosophy about a certain topic they stuck with for many years if it got them a nice job and position. You'll stick with people who mostly agree with you and were hired on similar principles and make some PR hires along the way.

That being said, I'm all on the Bruce Boudreau train when he gets fired.

Meh, I'd rather have a new guy in with no experience than recycling someone else's trash. Doubt he'd be a big upgrade anyway.

 

[MonyontheMoney]

Management cares as well. They want an entertaining product on ice.

Doubt it. Why would they?

 

[Lunatik]

Doubt it. Why would they?

Burke cares, he has talked about it numerous times.

 

[Skobel24]

Keep Hartley, but replace the assistants/special teams coaches. The powerplay and penalty killing was disgraceful this season.

Also, I've brought this up before, and it's gotten mixed reactions, but I'd love to see someone brought in to specifically to help with faceoffs. I'm not big on advanced stats, but this team needs to improve it's possession numbers. Winning faceoffs more would definitely help with that. I wonder what Yanic Perreault is up to. Maybe Stephane Yelle?