German Football Part III

Status
Not open for further replies.

Vipers31

Advanced Stagnostic
Aug 29, 2008
20,356
2,105
Cologne, Germany
At the time as in when? Before the Müller case, or his contact with Schalke?
What's wrong with the Müller "case"? He gave more talented young players a chance, and was proven right by Karius, while Müller bothered the court system with a clearly baseless lawsuit that he lost. What about his contact with Schalke? What about that thing is supposed to illustrate poor interpersonal skills? His boss from back then in Heidel called the work with him "outstanding" years later and would have liked to bring him to his new club.
 

Evilo

Registered User
Mar 17, 2002
62,131
8,584
France
So are we going to talk about Carlo having bad interpersonal skills the rest of his career? I think what happened with Tuchel isn't that exceptional. Losing part of the locker room isn't rare. In the vast majority of cases, it isn't depicted as a permanent flaw that will prevent a manager from succeeding at his next job.
I don't have a side on this, I don't know Tuchel or BVB enough for me to make a judgment.
But your argument that people talking about Tuchel's problems are blowing things out of proportion because they're not in the know... well you do the same by denying them.
I had a problem with the form, that's it. You can't have it both ways.

As for Ancelotti, frankly, his career is known well enough. I never liked his approach towards young players or lack of attack mindset, but when guys like Robber or Ribery are attacking you, you know you're in the good papers.
These two are such well known idiots.
Ancelottis knows a thing or two about winning, both as a player and as a coach. He won more than the Robery circus, that's for sure.
 

Deficient Mode

Registered User
Mar 25, 2011
60,348
2,397
I don't have a side on this, I don't know Tuchel or BVB enough for me to make a judgment.
But your argument that people talking about Tuchel's problems are blowing things out of proportion because they're not in the know... well you do the same by denying them.
I had a problem with the form, that's it. You can't have it both ways.

As for Ancelotti, frankly, his career is known well enough. I never liked his approach towards young players or lack of attack mindset, but when guys like Robber or Ribery are attacking you, you know you're in the good papers.
These two are such well known idiots.
Ancelottis knows a thing or two about winning, both as a player and as a coach. He won more than the Robery circus, that's for sure.

I'm not denying them. He definitely lost part of the locker room and clashed with management. And part of the locker room that hated him (Hummels) also clashed with Ancelotti. Some players liked him, though (e.g. Dembele). I just think it is unfair treatment for the media to claim that he has permanently bad interpersonal skills that will hinder him at every job. This sport is filled with disciplinarian coaches, and hardly any of them get branded this way. The reactionary German football media never treated Tuchel fairly, even way before these problems came to light.
 

Albatros

Registered User
Aug 19, 2017
12,485
7,935
Ostsee
Müller was the number one until his injury against Augsburg early November, was injured for 6 weeks and then degraded to 5th goalkeeper by Tuchel. Even Christian Wetklo (34 at the time) was ahead of him. That talented Karius was given the chance and promoted ahead was of course understandable, Kicker rated him slightly better 3.07 that season vs. Müller 3.15, Wetklo 4.50, but to degrade and completely disregard your number one like that just because of an injury was terrible man management.

With a couple of dissonances towards the end as Heidel put it. In the same interview Heidel also called him not easy, maybe even complicated trying to put it nicely. Obviously there are no major hard feelings anymore between those particular two, but it wasn't like that during Tuchel's last year in Mainz.
 

Albatros

Registered User
Aug 19, 2017
12,485
7,935
Ostsee
This sport is filled with disciplinarian coaches, and hardly any of them get branded this way. The reactionary German football media never treated Tuchel fairly, even way before these problems came to light.

Sure it is like that, and someone like Magath wasn't treated exactly kindly by the press either. But Tuchel can primarily blame his own hypocrisy for his reputation, it's one thing to be a disciplinarian and another to not to live up to your own standards talking about honesty and respect but failing to be honest and respectful yourself. Even a disciplinarian has to earn his respect, without personal integrity it does not work.
 

Deficient Mode

Registered User
Mar 25, 2011
60,348
2,397
Sure it is like that, and someone like Magath wasn't treated exactly kindly by the press either. But Tuchel can primarily blame his own hypocrisy for his reputation, it's one thing to be a disciplinarian and another to not to live up to your own standards talking about honesty and respect but failing to be honest and respectful yourself. Even a disciplinarian has to earn his respect, without personal integrity it does not work.

Magath had far worse on-field results than Tuchel when he started to face criticism. And it was the results that sunk him.
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
60,313
19,200
w/ Renly's Peach
I don't think that's it. Many BVB fans are taking one side because Aki/Sahin/Schmeltzer are still theirs, while TT isn't. Others just dislike TT because he's outspoken and doesn't bother to hide his intelligence - he just doesn't have the "would like to have a beer with" factor for the average fan. They'd expect him to stare at them disapprovingly, while lecturing them on the benefits of a different dietary approach.

I get that from BVB fans, though they should be more pissed with Watzke than anyone, but hearing it from non-BVB fans is weird.

...though I'd love to have Tuchel lecture me about tactics over a beer...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Vipers31

Bon Esprit

Registered User
Jan 24, 2004
4,859
438
Müller was the number one until his injury against Augsburg early November, was injured for 6 weeks and then degraded to 5th goalkeeper by Tuchel. Even Christian Wetklo (34 at the time) was ahead of him. That talented Karius was given the chance and promoted ahead was of course understandable, Kicker rated him slightly better 3.07 that season vs. Müller 3.15, Wetklo 4.50, but to degrade and completely disregard your number one like that just because of an injury was terrible man management.

With a couple of dissonances towards the end as Heidel put it. In the same interview Heidel also called him not easy, maybe even complicated trying to put it nicely. Obviously there are no major hard feelings anymore between those particular two, but it wasn't like that during Tuchel's last year in Mainz.

I was following Heinz Müller's career a bit because I knew him in person since we lived in the same appartment house when he was with Hannover 96.
He was a journeyman his entire career, playing on teams in 2. Bundeliga, England (2. league), Norway etc.
He got his job at Mainz 05 by replacing an injured Dimo Wache. And then he lost his job the same way.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_Müller_(Fußballspieler,_1978)
 

Nalens Oga

Registered User
Jan 5, 2010
16,780
1,053
Canada
Hoffenheim look like they're getting healthy again. Hannover on the other hand...Felipe and Jonathas both seem like they've had setbacks in recovery and injuries are looking more long-term.

Also some not so good results for VFB/Werder/Hertha in friendlies against 3rd division and police sides despite starting quite a few players from the first team :laugh:
 

Cassano

Registered User
Aug 31, 2013
25,610
3,818
GTA
Neuer may miss more than 6 months.

All the pieces landing for a BvB title season.
 

Nalens Oga

Registered User
Jan 5, 2010
16,780
1,053
Canada
Lol Keita got another red for his int'l team this time, waited until the end of the game at least and his suspension over for RB for their next match (but Ilsanker's injured now).
 

Deficient Mode

Registered User
Mar 25, 2011
60,348
2,397
So Piszczek could be out for a month according to his agent. Dortmund with only one healthy full back atm lol. Schmelzer should be back soon at least.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
Dec 8, 2013
57,654
23,587
New York
So Piszczek could be out for a month according to his agent. Dortmund with only one healthy full back atm lol. Schmelzer should be back soon at least.

How close is Guerreiro?? I saw he was doing some training.

I don't want Piszczek to be injured but is he really an improvement on these makeshift fullbacks?
 

Deficient Mode

Registered User
Mar 25, 2011
60,348
2,397
How close is Guerreiro?? I saw he was doing some training.

I don't want Piszczek to be injured but is he really an improvement on these makeshift fullbacks?

Guerreiro is also fairly close to making a return. Which is good. Too bad he and Schmelzer are both left backs.

Piszczek is still good against bad teams I find. Toljan hasn't exactly distinguished himself yet, either.
 

jniklast

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Sep 28, 2007
6,165
231
How close is Guerreiro?? I saw he was doing some training.

I don't want Piszczek to be injured but is he really an improvement on these makeshift fullbacks?

Piszczek is still the best right back on the team. Also this means that Zagadou has to play LB again, so this definitely hurts.

Hopefully Guerreiro and/or Schmelzer are back soon. But it's probably another 2 weeks, which could be up to 4 games with just Zagadou and Toljan available. It's really unbelievable, with Guerreiro, Schmelzer, Piszczek, Durm and Toljan Dortmund has quite a few full backs (more than most teams) in their squad and now 4 of 5 are injured.
 
  • Like
Reactions: theprofessor

Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
Dec 8, 2013
57,654
23,587
New York
We've barely seen any of Toljan. If he's halfway competent, he's better than Piszczek.

I wonder who's the team's third RB. Larsen or Bartra I'd think, although we haven't had that problem so far.

And as much as I prefer Zagadou at CB, he's been doing okay enough at LB. I want him to get games, whether it's at CB or LB, and we know right now he's 4th choice at CB, so he's not going to get many games there.
 

jniklast

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Sep 28, 2007
6,165
231
Durm is the 3rd RB. Larsen could be an option for either side, he got a few minutes at LB earlier this season.

Piszczek hasn't been that bad, he clearly is aging and no longer top-class, but Toljan has to become better defensively to pass him. Could happen quickly for sure, but as of now I would still prefer Piszczek over him.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
Dec 8, 2013
57,654
23,587
New York
I know about Durm, but he's also another one injured, so he doesn't help.

We seem to disagree about Piszczek. He might not be a liability against Bundesliga teams who can't threaten Dortmund and UCL dobbers like APOEL but against any good team, he seems to stand out as our weakest link and it's been this way this season so far and all of last season. Tuchel didn't even trust him anymore at parts of the second half of last season defending in wide positions that he implimented a back 3, he was especially helped by the back 3 as he got way more cover for his mistakes. Whatever though, I think he's fine enough for now, he won't decide the team's season by himself, but he needs to completely go in the summer window. Two seasons of this level is not acceptable. It seems like our fans are generally more accepting of his mistakes because we have a lack of good RB options. There's no reason we can't sign a real starter next season and have Toljan as the back up.
 
Jan 3, 2012
27,085
983
Why couldn't we have gotten Rodriguez? What happened to him? I remember hearing he was the next big fullback and then quietly goes to Milan for pennies.
 

Nalens Oga

Registered User
Jan 5, 2010
16,780
1,053
Canada
What? No it's because they're old. Players retire from their NT when they get to around 30 or so usually when it comes to competitive countries with NT's that are hard to break into.

Vidal's a piece of shit tbh but he does play for my favourite club and maybe it'll improve his club performance, I dunno.

Anyways, RB vs Dortmund on Saturday. The Friday game is another disappointing one.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad