Fans raise money to put up anti-Garth billboard outside Barclays

[LeapOnOver]

But...Who...Cares...?

We're trying to fire snow, but salvage his ego or something?

PK beat me to it, but again it's about not sounding like an idiot. A lot of people stop reading posts when you come at it from a dishonest, unintelligent angle. So the last thing you want to do when proving your point is to say, "Snow has been terrible for 12 years" and then have someone point out that the first several years there were money and owner issues so it's not that accurate and then you reply with, "So what it doesn't matter he still sucks". How many people are going to continue an honest discourse with you after that?

PK doesn't roll that way, and I try not to either. I can recognize the good and bad things in the equation and still come up with the same conclusion. Doesn't mean I have to exaggerate the reasons to get there. Makes people come off as fanatical rather than logical. Sometimes you come off as fanatical because you think suddenly all your hardwork in changing people's minds about Snow might be disintegrated if you admit anything positive about him. That's not the case. Don't discount people's facts. There are enough facts to prove Snow should be fired without having to ignore anything positive.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Because I think a lot of people view the 12 years thing as disingenuous because it's treating all 12 years the same. They aren't. He still needs to be fired though.

Couldn't the argument that he's sucked for all 12 years be valid, though, as long as you point out the areas he failed in within the context of what he had to work with?

The "defense" (for lack of a better word) of Snow's first few years was he had a limited budget and a mandate to stay below the cap floor. Okay, so you can't quite evaluate him on those rosters or the final standings. But you *can* evaluate the job he did during those years in stockpiling players that should now be paying dividends. And, based on the Isles' current predicament (ie. standing and overall organization depth), couldn't it be argued he DID fail to do what he should have done during those "budget" years?

I think the only way you can defend Snow's first handful of years is if he built a top notch farm system/prospect pool that's now on the brink of being an elite team in the league. But that's not really the case, so can't it be said that Snow not only failed recently, but also in the years leading up to his operating budget finally going up?

 

[PK Cronin]

Couldn't the argument that he's sucked for all 12 years be valid, though, as long as you point out the areas he failed in within the context of what he had to work with?

The "defense" (for lack of a better word) of Snow's first few years was he had a limited budget and a mandate to stay below the cap floor. Okay, so you can't quite evaluate him on those rosters or the final standings. But you *can* evaluate the job he did during those years in stockpiling players that should now be paying dividends. And, based on the Isles' current predicament (ie. standing and overall organization depth), couldn't it be argued he DID fail to do what he should have done during those "budget" years?

I think the only way you can defend Snow's first handful of years is if he built a top notch farm system/prospect pool that's now on the brink of being an elite team in the league. But that's not really the case, so can't it be said that Snow not only failed recently, but also in the years leading up to his operating budget finally going up?

I agree, 100%. It's often simplified to "1 playoff series win in 12 years" or "4 playoff appearances in 12 years" and that sort of thing. There's a tremendous emphasis on the amount of years, as if the expectation for all of them was the same. He couldn't have possibly made the playoffs for the first, let's say four years (I'm just randomly throwing this number out), so why is it even relevant to include it as part of the discussion when talking about playoff appearances? It's not really, and it's used to exaggerate or simplify the bad job he's done.

 

[Islanders4Cups]

Yes most might have picked him...except the "most" you're referring to aren't NHL GM's and it's Snow's job to make the right call. Hell if his only role during the draft is to draft the players that most people would take...you or I could do that job easily. His job is to draft the best player in that situation...and quite frankly his track record is shaky at best.

So you are saying no NHL GMs would have picked him. Only Snow would have. Get real.

 

[LeapOnOver]

Couldn't the argument that he's sucked for all 12 years be valid, though, as long as you point out the areas he failed in within the context of what he had to work with?

The "defense" (for lack of a better word) of Snow's first few years was he had a limited budget and a mandate to stay below the cap floor. Okay, so you can't quite evaluate him on those rosters or the final standings. But you *can* evaluate the job he did during those years in stockpiling players that should now be paying dividends. And, based on the Isles' current predicament (ie. standing and overall organization depth), couldn't it be argued he DID fail to do what he should have done during those "budget" years?

I think the only way you can defend Snow's first handful of years is if he built a top notch farm system/prospect pool that's now on the brink of being an elite team in the league. But that's not really the case, so can't it be said that Snow not only failed recently, but also in the years leading up to his operating budget finally going up?

But it's also possible that he did gain good draft picks and built up the system, but made bad moves after and lost them. He got John Tavares, no brainer but have to give credit for not botching it. He also grabbed Matt Moulson out of obscurity, but then gambled on Vanek and lost. So there are quite a few players / diamonds in the rough he got in those early years that paid dividends or are now paying dividends (Hamonic in the past, Lee now, Signed Streit when he was buried behind depth in Montreal and guy had career years with us, etc). In the early years of a ham-stringed budget and ownership meddling I don't think it's fair to say he completely failed. Might not be fair to say he succeeded, but I'd call it a draw.

 

[Nassau Revisited]

But it's also possible that he did gain good draft picks and built up the system, but made bad moves after and lost them. He got John Tavares, no brainer but have to give credit for not botching it. He also grabbed Matt Moulson out of obscurity, but then gambled on Vanek and lost. So there are quite a few players / diamonds in the rough he got in those early years that paid dividends or are now paying dividends (Hamonic in the past, Lee now, Signed Streit when he was buried behind depth in Montreal and guy had career years with us, etc). In the early years of a ham-stringed budget and ownership meddling I don't think it's fair to say he completely failed. Might not be fair to say he succeeded, but I'd call it a draw.

If Snow had any success his first 6-8 years with a limited budget we would be talking about if Statsny, Kane, or McDonagh push us over the top for a cup instead of debating a draft pick from 2011.

Snow has failed miserably for 12 years including the lean years. He failed to build an above averge farm system despite finishing in the bottom 5 for nearly a decade

 

[MJF]

Because I think a lot of people view the 12 years thing as disingenuous because it's treating all 12 years the same. They aren't. He still needs to be fired though.

I’ve always cut him some slack for having to operate as a cap floor team under Chuckles but since we first made the playoffs in the lockout season of 2012-13, when the financial constraints came off, Snow’s body of work has been awful. He should have been fired after the 2013-14 season. He must be removed as GM immediately.

 

[MJF]

Couldn't the argument that he's sucked for all 12 years be valid, though, as long as you point out the areas he failed in within the context of what he had to work with?

The "defense" (for lack of a better word) of Snow's first few years was he had a limited budget and a mandate to stay below the cap floor. Okay, so you can't quite evaluate him on those rosters or the final standings. But you *can* evaluate the job he did during those years in stockpiling players that should now be paying dividends. And, based on the Isles' current predicament (ie. standing and overall organization depth), couldn't it be argued he DID fail to do what he should have done during those "budget" years?

I think the only way you can defend Snow's first handful of years is if he built a top notch farm system/prospect pool that's now on the brink of being an elite team in the league. But that's not really the case, so can't it be said that Snow not only failed recently, but also in the years leading up to his operating budget finally going up?

But you also have to admit that Mike Milbury left the Isles bereft of prospects and Snow was able to restock the prospect pool when he took over as GM. Bailey, Nelson, Lee, Cizikas, deHaan, Pulock, Pelech, Mayfield, Beauvillier, Barzal all came through our pipeline. That has to be noted as well. But here we are in 2018 and Snow’s body of work doesn’t warrant him keeping his job anymore.

 

[doublechili]

Snow has done some good things, but he's been around long enough that I think we know there are some "holes in his game" and he doesn't look like the guy to bring the team all the way. I think he's got to work on his 200 foot GM game - maybe a stint in the AHL would help?

 

[saintunspecified]

Fans who don't want to tolerate mediocrity and try to do something about it >>>>>>>>>> Fans who make fun of them while mediocrity is happening right in front of them

This is is sports not politics. Giving for a f'ing NYI fan billboard is 101st on a list of 100 contributions I'd like to make. I've been a broken record about wanting Snow gone since 2013. But, please, shove your sports morality up your ***.

 

[nycole]

But you also have to admit that Mike Milbury left the Isles bereft of prospects and Snow was able to restock the prospect pool when he took over as GM. Bailey, Nelson, Lee, Cizikas, deHaan, Pulock, Pelech, Mayfield, Beauvillier, Barzal all came through our pipeline. That has to be noted as well. But here we are in 2018 and Snow’s body of work doesn’t warrant him keeping his job anymore.

+ Tavares and Hamonic

This covers nine draft years. Six of those years he had 5th or earlier (1 first, 1 fourth, 4 fifth.)

IMO he has way too many busts to hits.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

But you also have to admit that Mike Milbury left the Isles bereft of prospects and Snow was able to restock the prospect pool when he took over as GM. Bailey, Nelson, Lee, Cizikas, deHaan, Pulock, Pelech, Mayfield, Beauvillier, Barzal all came through our pipeline. That has to be noted as well. But here we are in 2018 and Snow’s body of work doesn’t warrant him keeping his job anymore.

Absolutely. That's why I don't think that Snow is horrible at drafting as some claim. He's average. Overall, the players he's picked have panned out at an average rate. What Snow doesn't have are the homeruns.

Snow took over a very mediocre team with vets and no prospects. The team sucked for years and years and rebuilt their prospect pool without even coming close to being competitive. Then after the excruciatingly long rebuild was supposedly over, we've yet to see the team become a true contender. And are in fact going in reverse (potentially two straight years of no playoffs).

 

[Doshell Propivo]

+ Tavares and Hamonic

This covers nine draft years. Six of those years he had 5th or earlier (1 first, 1 fourth, 4 fifth.)

IMO he has way too many busts to hits.

I posted something a while ago an article about how draft picks pan out. I think it's something like 70% of players picked fifth overall become NHLers. And more than 50% of them are 3rd liners. I could be off a bit but that's what I recall. I remember being surprised at how low of a percentage it was to draft an impact player even at 4th or 5th overall. They way Snow's draft picks have developed are pretty much on par with the average.

 

[MJF]

+ Tavares and Hamonic

This covers nine draft years. Six of those years he had 5th or earlier (1 first, 1 fourth, 4 fifth.)

IMO he has way too many busts to hits.

Thanks. I forgot about them. The point of my post was to give Snow credit where credit was due, but he still has to go.

 

[MJF]

Absolutely. That's why I don't think that Snow is horrible at drafting as some claim. He's average. Overall, the players he's picked have panned out at an average rate. What Snow doesn't have are the homeruns.

Snow took over a very mediocre team with vets and no prospects. The team sucked for years and years and rebuilt their prospect pool without even coming close to being competitive. Then after the excruciatingly long rebuild was supposedly over, we've yet to see the team become a true contender. And are in fact going in reverse (potentially two straight years of no playoffs).

He’s had too many misses with 1st round picks. It’s a red flag for me.

 

[periferal]

Couldn't the argument that he's sucked for all 12 years be valid, though, as long as you point out the areas he failed in within the context of what he had to work with?

The "defense" (for lack of a better word) of Snow's first few years was he had a limited budget and a mandate to stay below the cap floor. Okay, so you can't quite evaluate him on those rosters or the final standings. But you *can* evaluate the job he did during those years in stockpiling players that should now be paying dividends. And, based on the Isles' current predicament (ie. standing and overall organization depth), couldn't it be argued he DID fail to do what he should have done during those "budget" years?

I think the only way you can defend Snow's first handful of years is if he built a top notch farm system/prospect pool that's now on the brink of being an elite team in the league. But that's not really the case, so can't it be said that Snow not only failed recently, but also in the years leading up to his operating budget finally going up?

Best post around here in a long time.

No one is saying snow got a 760 on his SATs so he should be fired. Whatever his level of responsibility to the Islanders organization was...He failed, and that takes into account the budgets he had to work with. Essentially whether he was hitting from the championship tees or the ladies' tees, the ball wound up in the rough.

 

[periferal]

He’s had too many misses with 1st round picks. It’s a red flag for me.

Literally the biggest red flag. And one of the few he hit on (Nino) he traded out the door for a 4th liner - Not because it was best for the Islanders, but garth snow will not be questioned.

 

[nycole]

I posted something a while ago an article about how draft picks pan out. I think it's something like 70% of players picked fifth overall become NHLers. And more than 50% of them are 3rd liners. I could be off a bit but that's what I recall. I remember being surprised at how low of a percentage it was to draft an impact player even at 4th or 5th overall. They way Snow's draft picks have developed are pretty much on par with the average.

After 12 years of futility, we have "average" draft results, along with a bunch of busts drafted because Snow thought he was reinventing the wheel with some of his picks. Yay.

The ONE thing where we can equally evaluate GMs across the board, and after 12 years he's "average."

"Average" drafting, compared to abysmal development and trading. But at least he's also "average" at contracts.

 

[Costigan77]

I haven't commented on this, but seriously, billboards? Garth sucks and should not be here. But the same jack wagons that support these are the same that show up to a town information meeting---a town they don't reside in---in islanders jerseys, zubaz and chanting and yelling. Have some candor and class for christsakes. Flood ledecky's inbox. Call up WFAN and ESPN radio. Uhhhh don't go to games. But to support putting up billboards is such a waste. The fact that there is 24 pages on this is sad. These people who donated might have well just taken that cash and thrown it out their car window.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

After 12 years of futility, we have "average" draft results, along with a bunch of busts drafted because Snow thought he was reinventing the wheel with some of his picks. Yay.

The ONE thing where we can equally evaluate GMs across the board, and after 12 years he's "average."

"Average" drafting, compared to abysmal development and trading. But at least he's also "average" at contracts.

All true.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

I haven't commented on this, but seriously, billboards? Garth sucks and should not be here. But the same jack wagons that support these are the same that show up to a town information meeting---a town they don't reside in---in islanders jerseys, zubazz and chanting and yelling. Have some candor and class for christsakes. Flood ledecky's inbox. Call up WFAN and ESPN radio. Uhhhh don't go to games. But to support putting up billboards is such a waste. The fact that there is 24 pages on this is sad. These people who donated might have well just taken that cash and thrown it out their car window.

LOL!!!!!

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

But you also have to admit that Mike Milbury left the Isles bereft of prospects and Snow was able to restock the prospect pool when he took over as GM. Bailey, Nelson, Lee, Cizikas, deHaan, Pulock, Pelech, Mayfield, Beauvillier, Barzal all came through our pipeline. That has to be noted as well. But here we are in 2018 and Snow’s body of work doesn’t warrant him keeping his job anymore.

Keep in mind when I say Snow "failed", I don't mean he literally drafted/traded/acquired absolutely nothing, or that every draft pick or move he made was a failure. I'm using the term "failed" to cover the end result of those years of stockpiling, where the prospects he stockpiled (some good, some average, some bad) have a cumulative result of not being a contender.

Yes, he did add some good prospects to a barren system. Yes, he made some nice trades along the way (Boychuk and Leddy additions arguably at the top of the list). But evaluating him as a GM is about evaluating where his teams are in the standings and where they project to be going forward. Thus, why I call his stockpiling period during his low budget days as a "failure" because at the end of the day, the players he drafted then have turned into an average team today.

 

[sabremike]

I haven't commented on this, but seriously, billboards? Garth sucks and should not be here. But the same jack wagons that support these are the same that show up to a town information meeting---a town they don't reside in---in islanders jerseys, zubaz and chanting and yelling. Have some candor and class for christsakes. Flood ledecky's inbox. Call up WFAN and ESPN radio. Uhhhh don't go to games. But to support putting up billboards is such a waste. The fact that there is 24 pages on this is sad. These people who donated might have well just taken that cash and thrown it out their car window.

That billboard did more to draw attention and ire throughout the continent towards the sad and pathetic shit show that is this organization than anything ever. And that was kinda the point of doing it.

 

[macleod50]

I haven't commented on this, but seriously, billboards? Garth sucks and should not be here. But the same jack wagons that support these are the same that show up to a town information meeting---a town they don't reside in---in islanders jerseys, zubaz and chanting and yelling. Have some candor and class for christsakes. Flood ledecky's inbox. Call up WFAN and ESPN radio. Uhhhh don't go to games. But to support putting up billboards is such a waste. The fact that there is 24 pages on this is sad. These people who donated might have well just taken that cash and thrown it out their car window.

Zubaz reference. I used to have a pair when I was a kid. Very comfortable.

I don't have a problem with fans voicing their opinions. The franchise asked for this when they maintained the status quo after making the second round a couple seasons ago. That was the time to go "all in" as some posters like to put it. Weight like a moron, then decided to criticize the fanbase this season. A billboard is the least of their worries. Belmont will be empty if they don't do something now.

 

[MJF]

I haven't commented on this, but seriously, billboards? Garth sucks and should not be here. But the same jack wagons that support these are the same that show up to a town information meeting---a town they don't reside in---in islanders jerseys, zubaz and chanting and yelling. Have some candor and class for christsakes. Flood ledecky's inbox. Call up WFAN and ESPN radio. Uhhhh don't go to games. But to support putting up billboards is such a waste. The fact that there is 24 pages on this is sad. These people who donated might have well just taken that cash and thrown it out their car window.

Flooding Ledecky's inbox doesn't make it into the papers. Calling WFAN or ESPN to talk about the Islanders will get you put on hold for 2 hours, if they take your call at all as you know how much they love to talk hockey. Those billboards did exactly what they were supposed to do. They got the media talking about how fed up Isles fans are. It never would have happened otherwise. Sometimes it takes something like this to get ownership's attention.

Are you old enough to remember the Giants fans renting an airplane to fly over Giants Stadium in 1978? I am. "15 Years of Lousy Football...We've Had Enough" What's the difference between Giants fans doing that and Isles fans collecting money to rent some billboards? The fact that Giants fans were doctors and lawyers while Isles fans are a bunch of chooches?

Sports of The Times; GIANT FANS PROUD OF 1978 PROTEST

Maybe instead of chanting Snow Must Go, we should start chanting WE'VE HAD ENOUGH!