Draft Thread Part 2: Bark to the Future

[PredsV82]

15 years of forwards and who did he develop into a star? Rads was the closest but other than that, did any of our forwards ever sniff an all star game or get recognition for being that player? Track record says it all. He's a very good coach but can't develop forwards to the next level and he can't take the team to the next level because of that. The two are interrelated.

horse piss. Poile uses our top draft picks on goalies and defensemen and Trotz gets the blame for not developing star forwards??

Legwand isnt a franchise player but he is a solid NHL caliber forward

Martin Erat is a solid top 6 winger

Patric Hornqvist was the last player taken in the draft yet under trotz's supervision he has scored 20+ 3 times and 30 once

Scott Hartnell didnt "develop" in Philly he developed here and Philly reaped the rewards of leipold being a douchecanoe

Upshall was never healthy long enough to "develop" but yet still has managed a decent NHL career

Radulov didnt stay around long enough for us to see what Trotz could do with some real raw talent

hell under Trotz's guidance Vern Fiddler became an NHL level forward.. does "developing" only count for making 30 goal scorers or does he get credit for taking a guy with marginal NHL talent and making him a 15-20 goal scorer?

and if Wilson becomes the 25+ goal guy we think he is going to be does trotz get credit? or will you claim he could be a 35 goal scorer if not for Trotz?

and if Trotz is so useless why is Bourque coming along so nicely?

you anti-trotz and anti-poile guys have your worldview and be damned if facts will get in the way

 

[glenngineer]

Volde, yet you proved my point, he's never developed a star forward in 15 years. If you want to use facts that's the reality. You say I'm anti-Trotz and I am. So what if I am. While it's great that he made Fiddler into an NHL player and other guys are good players, even top 6 players, fact is, Wilson is now going on 24 in the fall and started to have a breakout season this past year. He was taken 7th overall after Stamkos and a line of amazing defensemen. I know it takes time for kids to develop but this old school mentality of the road to Nashville goes through Milwaukee is good and bad. While it allows certain guys to grow and become better players, some kids are more ready than others but are never given a fair shake unless it's done the way Trotz wants it done. That's great if you hold everyone accountable and not everyone is. Vets are not chastised for their mistakes yet youngsters are destroyed.

Case in point. Gill and Blum. As a defenseman you never pass the puck to the middle of the ice unless it's right on the stick of your teammate and even then, not the best move if other options are available. Gill in a game this year did it at least twice yet was out there for every shift that was his. Blum does the same thing and he's benched and sat out for a few games. How are kids supposed to develop with that kind of message?

Erat and Hornqvist are good examples of the work Trotz did but are they elite players? No. Are all elite players drafted in the top 5, top 10? No. I never get why everyone around here blames Trotz for never getting any top end talent. Sometimes the talent is there but never utilized properly.

You brought up Arkhipov a while back. He was developing well and then disappeared to Russia. Why is that? Was he mentally not strong enough? Not talented enough? Not having fun? Remember Andreas Johansson? He had a pretty good season playing with Legwand until Legwand broke his collarbone but he left after his good season. Rads took off to Russia. Suter just left as opposed to staying and being on the best d-pair in hockey. Decent to good with the potential of becoming better players have left this team. Why is that? Could it be the coach is too stringent on his way? I know it's a profession and the players should adapt but if it's not fun to come to the rink, they're going to want to go somewhere else. People blame Poile for players leaving and not signing contracts. Maybe it's not Poile and it's Trotz and the way he treats his players. I've heard he's a players coach and he rips in to them when need be. I've also heard the run-ins with guys like Hartnell and Suter.

I just find it hard to believe in 15 years a coach is not able to develop an elite level forward, even with only one top 3 pick in the draft. If other teams/coaches are able to do it, why aren't we? While making the playoffs year in and year out is grand, making a serious run would justify keeping Trotz around. Not developing top offensive talent and not going far in the playoffs is not a coincidence. Is it Poile drafting poorly or is it poor development on the staffs part or is it both?

Back on track for this thread, I'm terrified of what Trotz will do to Forsberg and whoever we get at number 4. I'll be pleasantly surprised if they develop well but at the same time, I don't think they'll max out with their potential with Trotz at the helm. Toews and Kane were really good going to Chicago and learned a lot from Denis Savard and Kane has thanked Savard for teaching him a lot but it wasn't until Quenneville got there where they really excelled. It's ok that you support Trotz. That's your right to do so. It's also my right to want him gone as a fan of this team. You and I will never see eye to eye on this and I really don't care to be perfectly honest. I know what I see. I know what I feel.

 

[PredsV82]

Volde, yet you proved my point, he's never developed a star forward in 15 years. If you want to use facts that's the reality. You say I'm anti-Trotz and I am. So what if I am. While it's great that he made Fiddler into an NHL player and other guys are good players, even top 6 players, fact is, Wilson is now going on 24 in the fall and started to have a breakout season this past year. He was taken 7th overall after Stamkos and a line of amazing defensemen. I know it takes time for kids to develop but this old school mentality of the road to Nashville goes through Milwaukee is good and bad. While it allows certain guys to grow and become better players, some kids are more ready than others but are never given a fair shake unless it's done the way Trotz wants it done. That's great if you hold everyone accountable and not everyone is. Vets are not chastised for their mistakes yet youngsters are destroyed.

Case in point. Gill and Blum. As a defenseman you never pass the puck to the middle of the ice unless it's right on the stick of your teammate and even then, not the best move if other options are available. Gill in a game this year did it at least twice yet was out there for every shift that was his. Blum does the same thing and he's benched and sat out for a few games. How are kids supposed to develop with that kind of message?

Erat and Hornqvist are good examples of the work Trotz did but are they elite players? No. Are all elite players drafted in the top 5, top 10? No. I never get why everyone around here blames Trotz for never getting any top end talent. Sometimes the talent is there but never utilized properly.

You brought up Arkhipov a while back. He was developing well and then disappeared to Russia. Why is that? Was he mentally not strong enough? Not talented enough? Not having fun? Remember Andreas Johansson? He had a pretty good season playing with Legwand until Legwand broke his collarbone but he left after his good season. Rads took off to Russia. Suter just left as opposed to staying and being on the best d-pair in hockey. Decent to good with the potential of becoming better players have left this team. Why is that? Could it be the coach is too stringent on his way? I know it's a profession and the players should adapt but if it's not fun to come to the rink, they're going to want to go somewhere else. People blame Poile for players leaving and not signing contracts. Maybe it's not Poile and it's Trotz and the way he treats his players. I've heard he's a players coach and he rips in to them when need be. I've also heard the run-ins with guys like Hartnell and Suter.

I just find it hard to believe in 15 years a coach is not able to develop an elite level forward, even with only one top 3 pick in the draft. If other teams/coaches are able to do it, why aren't we? While making the playoffs year in and year out is grand, making a serious run would justify keeping Trotz around. Not developing top offensive talent and not going far in the playoffs is not a coincidence. Is it Poile drafting poorly or is it poor development on the staffs part or is it both?

Back on track for this thread, I'm terrified of what Trotz will do to Forsberg and whoever we get at number 4. I'll be pleasantly surprised if they develop well but at the same time, I don't think they'll max out with their potential with Trotz at the helm. Toews and Kane were really good going to Chicago and learned a lot from Denis Savard and Kane has thanked Savard for teaching him a lot but it wasn't until Quenneville got there where they really excelled. It's ok that you support Trotz. That's your right to do so. It's also my right to want him gone as a fan of this team. You and I will never see eye to eye on this and I really don't care to be perfectly honest. I know what I see. I know what I feel.

please let me know how you define "star forward" ... your definition will almost certainly either apply to Hornqvist, Hartnell or where we project Wilson to be in an unjured season, or else will be so restrictive that there will be many coaches who have never developed a "star forward"

 

[RaiderDoug]

Is anyone else still betting Colorado will pick Jones?

I'll believe it's someone else when Roy strolls up to the podium and announces someone else. I really think they're trying to drum up some interest in trading down a slot or two.

 

[token grinder]

NSH: 4th + SK + Ellis/Blum
COL: 1st + Stastny

With 1st Pick: Drouin

Wilson (PFW) Stastny (PLY) Drouin (SNP) = 1st Line

What do You guys think about this? Greetings from Germany

looks like a video game setup with the acronyms

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Is anyone else still betting Colorado will pick Jones?

I'll believe it's someone else when Roy strolls up to the podium and announces someone else. I really think they're trying to drum up some interest in trading down a slot or two.

This was my thinking until I read the article in the Denver Post. He sounds pretty definite.

 

[glenngineer]

please let me know how you define "star forward" ... your definition will almost certainly either apply to Hornqvist, Hartnell or where we project Wilson to be in an unjured season, or else will be so restrictive that there will be many coaches who have never developed a "star forward"

Top 3 talent. Game breaker. All star. Did you really need me to explain this to you? Come on doc, you're smarter than that.

Heck, I'd be happy if we developed someone as good as Mikko Koivu.

 

[PredsV82]

Some lower round "sclubs" have developed into stars, just not for us. Zetterburg and Datsyuk for example. Trotz needed to go after our loss to Phoenix.

Patric Hornqvist and Martin Erat say hi

and everyone cant luck into a Datsuyk and Zeterburg... care to name any other "low level schlubs" that "all" of the other coaches have developed that are better than Horns and Marty?

 

[glenngineer]

Patric Hornqvist and Martin Erat say hi

and everyone cant luck into a Datsuyk and Zeterburg... care to name any other "low level schlubs" that "all" of the other coaches have developed that are better than Horns and Marty?

Joe Pavelski. David Backes. They say hi right back.

 

[PredsV82]

Top 3 talent. Game breaker. All star. Did you really need me to explain this to you? Come on doc, you're smarter than that.

Heck, I'd be happy if we developed someone as good as Mikko Koivu.

well, "top 3 talent" is kind of subjective since its defined by the team they are on

please feel free to inform me of the multitudes of these "stars" that other coaches have "developed" that werent top 5 draft picks and thus likely to be stars under any coach

everyone throws out Datsuyk and Zetterburg but youre gonna have to do better than that if you want to coinvince me that Trotz has a worse track record than most of the other NHL coaches given what he has had to work with

edit: and you are smoking serious dope if you think M. Koivu is substantially better than Hornqvist or Erat.. in fact Koivu's career stats look very much Legwandish.. so maybe you want to try again??

 

[AintLifeGrand]

I'm going to be seriously depressed if we do not get Barkov

 

[Persona5]

What do you guys think of this offer...

Nashville sends:
2013 1st pick (#4)
2014 1st pick
2014 3rd pick
Smith & Blum

Colorado sends:
ROR
2013 1st (#1)

We would end up with ROR, Mack, Fisher, and Gaustad down the middle.

Colorado would have Smith to pair with Stansey along with a solid 3rd pairing d-man. They would still get either Drouin, Barkov, or Jones in the draft.

 

[Preddownsouth]

What do you guys think of this offer...

Nashville sends:
2013 1st pick (#4)
2014 1st pick
2014 3rd pick
Smith & Blum

Colorado sends:
ROR
2013 1st (#1)

We would end up with ROR, Mack, Fisher, and Gaustad down the middle.

Colorado would have Smith to pair with Stansey along with a solid 3rd pairing d-man. They would still get either Drouin, Barkov, or Jones in the draft.

I believe I read yesterday a post saying that ROR was offer-sheeted (like Weber was) so he can't be moved for a year.

 

[PredsV82]

What do you guys think of this offer...

Nashville sends:
2013 1st pick (#4)
2014 1st pick
2014 3rd pick
Smith & Blum

Colorado sends:
ROR
2013 1st (#1)

We would end up with ROR, Mack, Fisher, and Gaustad down the middle.

Colorado would have Smith to pair with Stansey along with a solid 3rd pairing d-man. They would still get either Drouin, Barkov, or Jones in the draft.

ROR by NHL rules cannot be traded until feb of 2014. and I wouldnt give up next years 1st until we have played some of next season and have some idea of where that pick will be. the only thing worse than another season like this last one would be another season like this last one and then watching someone else use our high draft pick

 

[RaiderDoug]

What do you guys think of this offer...

Nashville sends:
2013 1st pick (#4)
2014 1st pick
2014 3rd pick
Smith & Blum

Colorado sends:
ROR
2013 1st (#1)

We would end up with ROR, Mack, Fisher, and Gaustad down the middle.

Colorado would have Smith to pair with Stansey along with a solid 3rd pairing d-man. They would still get either Drouin, Barkov, or Jones in the draft.

I don't think ROR can be traded?

If he can, I would think that Colorado would have to look hard at that. I don't know how much they would value Smith or Blum though.

That's an awful lot of assets to move, but I think I would do it to add ROR and MacKinnon to our top 6.

 

[BigFatCat999]

I'm going to be seriously depressed if we do not get Barkov

I would be Meh, fact is there is a top 4 now with Nich ripping up his KHL contract and NSH is going to get one of them. If Nich or Drouin, a replacement for Erat/SK/Smith on the wing along with Forsberg. If Jones, Sweet Jesus Christ ****, your top 4 is Josi-Weber, Jones-Klein, you trade a metric ****ton of D-men for forward help and Nashville will still have a heaping dump truck of cap space for a very limited number of spots.

I want NSH to trade Blum/Gill/someone along with either SK or Smith for an upgrade at forward, and/or a 2nd in this draft.

I have 3.5 million slotted at the Pick and I'd say 2 million for a backup. that leaves about 6-10 million for 4 forwards, 1 BIG forward and 3 bottom 6 forwards

 

[CroKaas]

looks like a video game setup with the acronyms

Should i write an unnecessary long text?

Sry for the bad try.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

that leaves about 6-10 million for 4 forwards, 1 BIG forward and 3 bottom 6 forwards

You had me up until here. 4 forwards?? Where are you putting them?

 

[RaiderDoug]

WRT Barkov - he had a recent interview where he said if he's not in the NHL next year, he's going to go back to Tappara. So, similar to Nichushkin, the AHL is not going to be an option for those Euros.

 

[RaiderDoug]

I'm going to be seriously depressed if we do not get Barkov

My list still goes 1. MacK, 2. Drouin, 3. Barkov/Jones. Then a major dropoff (i'm not buying Nichushkin).

Sitting at 4, unless we do something really stupid (Lindholm? Monahan?), we're projected to get an elite player and i'll be happy with any of them.

 

[Shea Weber]

Lots of talk about packing Smith in a deal.

I think I remember Poile pretty much saying Smith is the kind of guy with offensive talent we need and hopes he can develop his game on the smaller ice. Especially at the price tag we gave him I don't know what value he has right now. Granted he was down right awful last year, but I think it's in the plans to keep him around and hope he can contribute more than just being a turnover machine.

 

[Preddownsouth]

WRT Barkov - he had a recent interview where he said if he's not in the NHL next year, he's going to go back to Tappara. So, similar to Nichushkin, the AHL is not going to be an option for those Euros.

Interesting you mention that - I was listening to a Preds podcast and they had a draft expert on from THN. They were discussing Barkov at 4 for the Preds and the draft guy intimated that it was reasonable that he would stay over there for at least another year before coming over.

 

[BigFatCat999]

Based on talent not depth chart

Top 9: Pick, Forsberg, Legwand, Fisher, Hornqvist, Wilson, Bourque, Beck/Watson/UFA, UFA

Maybes/trade bait: SK, Smith

Bottom 6: Gaustad, Clune, (RFA) Spaling, UFA, UFA/Beck?

My biggest concern about assuming Beck will make the team much less be a top 9 forward is that 1) Trotz leans on vets, 2) Sophomore year, 3) Smith may stop doing self proctology and be the player we know he can be. If that becomes the case then Beck becomes one of the bottom 6, specifically the player who bounces between Mil/NSH. I think we are going to see an SK/Blum deal to the Oilers for Hemsky personally. Thought I think the HF speculation of a Blum to Philly deal would make a ton of sense too.

it really, REALLY, depends on who the Preds draft on the roster math. Even then, I'm not sold on Forsberg. Next year is a big assed crystal ball filled with white smoke. As usual.

In my mind, Jones and Mack will be gone in picks 1-2 no matter the order, then TBL will either go with Drouin or Nich. I have a feeling Nich will be going to TBL. He's a goal scorer who's played in a better league in the KHL. Drouin went into freak mode when MacK went down scoring about 2 pts a game. Doing a cross reference of team needs/depth charts/talent scales I could see it like this:

COL: MacK
FLA: Jones
TBL: Nich
NSH: Drouin
CAR: Nurse

I think this is a year where D men will rise up and scoring forwards will drop. My question is at NJ, they DO have to forfeit a pick next year, I think they will trade down to get a 1st next year.

 

[triggrman]

WRT Barkov - he had a recent interview where he said if he's not in the NHL next year, he's going to go back to Tappara. So, similar to Nichushkin, the AHL is not going to be an option for those Euros.

What? So does that mean he has an attitude problem? Does this mean he's not committed to the NHL?

If Drouin, Mac and Barkov are gone do you take Jones or Nichushkin? I'd prefer Nichushkin.

I'll repeat my stance that Nichushkin looks like the most dynamic player in the draft that I've seen on clips. I'm not at all against drafting him at 5.

 

[glenngineer]

well, "top 3 talent" is kind of subjective since its defined by the team they are on

please feel free to inform me of the multitudes of these "stars" that other coaches have "developed" that werent top 5 draft picks and thus likely to be stars under any coach

everyone throws out Datsuyk and Zetterburg but youre gonna have to do better than that if you want to coinvince me that Trotz has a worse track record than most of the other NHL coaches given what he has had to work with

edit: and you are smoking serious dope if you think M. Koivu is substantially better than Hornqvist or Erat.. in fact Koivu's career stats look very much Legwandish.. so maybe you want to try again??

Never said Koivu was substantially better, just better than Hornqvist and Erat and would be happy to develop someone as good as him.