LeftHeartInSF
Left Heart In SF
Well I mean he's below Toews so his intangibles obviously don't stack up. Thornton might as well be a bag of pucks sitting on the ice.
To be fair, Toews once turned water into wine.
Well I mean he's below Toews so his intangibles obviously don't stack up. Thornton might as well be a bag of pucks sitting on the ice.
I think hb is specifically talking about his Playoff PPG being significantly lower than his regular season PPG, which has been true almost every year
In the Playoffs, that production level disappears and his numbers (while still quite decent overall) wouldn't even place him among the top 2 members of the Sedin family.
Everybody is going to say its a business. But you know what isn't? The very act of hockey itself. Are you seriously still not getting this?
Here, let me go ahead and paint the picture for you.
Let's say the NHL wanted to expand to lets say...Washington state. I, some billionaire with so much money goes, "Hey, NHL, I'll front every penny and even build the arena out of my own pocket. I want a winning team."
The NHL approves me, and it this point in time is where I decide. Does the fact that people come watch my team to win the cup actually matter to me? Or does my entire operation run on the premise that I need incredible hockey minds and incredible hockey players to perform to win the cup? Sure, it'd be nice to have both, but who is actually the boss, here? The people who sit there to be entertained or me and my vision of the team winning the cup? The point is, I answer to no one. Hell, if I don't want to sell beer in my arena during the hockey game, thats up to me, too.
What I am getting at here if you don't still quite understand is that building and having a winning team is not a business in and of itself. It just so happens that I am required to offer to sell you tickets to come see my team since the entire league wants to make money. It just so happens that any profitability that can help me recuperate my out of pocket costs is better for me and the league. I am however, not in any way obligated to please anyone other then the NHL standards and myself.
The whole thornton is wrong to be captain stuff is hilarious. 1st thornton was to easy going, don't care about anything attitude. Now its he cares to much and he is to in your face.
Except the list posted on the last page places him above both Sedins in playoff PPG. So you're correct that he wouldn't be among the top 2 Sedins but only because he's above them.
He cares too much and the stress of winning is getting to him.
He doesn't care about winning and wants to stay in San Jose through a rebuild.
I haven't seen a picture of either Sedin holding the Stanley either.
Here is the stat-line. The drop is there, but then again I don't think everything wrong with the Sharks can be lopped on JT http://www.hockey-reference.com/leaders/points_per_game_active_p.html 20th place.
Thank you...now I am curious which of those players have been to 10 years of playoffs. He is #20...that's still incredibly good.
20th best doesn't exactly scream Playoff Loser to me. He's above both Sedins, Datsyuk, Hossa and Bergeron who have all played in a similarly large number of playoff games and don't have a reputation of being useless.
It's not ALL on JT, but I get frustrated at the contingent who seems to argue that none of it is him. Especially after last year where James flippin' Sheppard scored as many points as JT did in far less ice time, yet the apologists STILL want to blame the 4th liners for not playing like superstars and not the actual superstar.
I agree that not *everything* wrong with the Sharks can be lopped on JT. But he is a part of it and (to my eyes) is often an active contributor to what's wrong. And it does seem there are a contingent of Sharks fans and apologists who seem to give a free pass to JT no matter what he does.
Pretty much every other forward, defenseman, goaltender, and even coach has paid the price for those failures over the years, yet JT still remains. After a full decade, JT, PM, DW, and Vlasic are pretty much the only guys left. Everybody else has been cleaned out, replaced, and the replacements cleaned out and replaced, and the same issues still seem to be there.
It's not ALL on JT, but I get frustrated at the contingent who seems to argue that none of it is him. Especially after last year where James flippin' Sheppard scored as many points as JT did in far less ice time, yet the apologists STILL want to blame the 4th liners for not playing like superstars and not the actual superstar.
This exists which is practically the same as winning it
Except the list posted on the last page places him above both Sedins in playoff PPG. So you're correct that he wouldn't be among the top 2 Sedins but only because he's above them.
Who is saying that? I'm sure there are a few ppl here saying it (bc there are a few ppl here on that put most of the blame on only one party, whether that is DW, TMac, Thornton, Niemi, Plattner, whomever)
but it seems to me that most ppl are saying that Thornton (and DW and TMac and the other players) shares some of the blame.
Well you also have the Swedish twins commercial https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6tBr6PMkBY
EDIT: How do I get the Youtube-vid to get embedded in the post?
And it's those ones I debate the most with (though other people will still read my posts, and I will use still other people's posts to further my own points).
And it's those ones I debate the most with (though other people will still read my posts, and I will use still other people's posts to further my own points).
It's actually not that great.
First off though, let me say that I am not in fact lumping all of our problems on Joe, but he is a problem, and I will explain why I believe that. First and foremost though let me be clear that I do not think Joe is doing this on purpose or it is a lack of effort on his part.
The reason it is not that great is because this chart isn't comparing it to his regular season numbers. Joe is at a .98ppg regular season total right now. As you see here he's a .76ppg pace career in the playoffs. That is a 23% drop. He's still good in the playoffs, but he's significantly worse in the playoffs than he is in the regular season. As a comparison, Patrick Kane is a .97ppg in the regular season and a .98ppg in the playoffs. That is a playoff leader. That and Toews (who only drops off 4%) are a HUGE reason why the Hawks have two cups. The Sharks have no one who can compare to either.
Now, the why. Joe Thornton's point pace drops off so severely in the playoffs simply because by nature of being in the playoffs you are playing against the best defensive teams. The best defensive teams have a pretty easy job defending Thornton. Why? Because he's predictable. All you have to do is assume he will pass and shutdown the lanes and you are going to cripple him. Good teams can do this very well. There are other factors, such as the Sharks blue line sometimes not being enough of a threat (making covering the forwards even easier), but Joe's refusal to shoot the puck and score goals himself, while admirable, is extremely limiting. You know Thornton will pass, stop the pass, that's it.
Now what compounds the problem is that the team is accustomed to Thornton doing all the heavy lifting, they are built around that. He is such a phenomenal player that it's very hard not to do that. His linemates become used to waiting for their magical Thornton special and stop trying to create on their own. Thornton dominates the puck so much it's difficult for his linemates to do much except shoot. Come playoff time when good teams shutdown Thornton his linemates, even when they are top end players, do not have the time to adapt. They've spent an entire season (or more) getting used to Thornton's amazing passes and when those dry up they are left struggling to produce.
That is the issue. It's not that Joe's a bad guy, or he's a choker, it's that Joe's play style is actively harmful to the team around him come playoff time. He's a crutch, and as soon as that crutch is removed the team falls over and ends up struggling to get up. By the time they get up, it's over and they are limping home.
I WISH we were rebuilding
We're treading water
If we miss the playoffs and say draft 11th, then I'm curious by which metrics you can argue that we treaded water this season? For the sake of the discussion, let's ignore the DW/JT drama.
If we miss the playoffs and say draft 11th, then I'm curious by which metrics you can argue that we treaded water this season? For the sake of the discussion, let's ignore the DW/JT drama.
If we miss the playoffs and say draft 11th, then I'm curious by which metrics you can argue that we treaded water this season? For the sake of the discussion, let's ignore the DW/JT drama.