Doug Wilson speaks on taking C from Joe: Joe tells DW to "Shut his mouth"

[LeftHeartInSF]

Well I mean he's below Toews so his intangibles obviously don't stack up. Thornton might as well be a bag of pucks sitting on the ice.

To be fair, Toews once turned water into wine.

 

[Barrie22]

The whole thornton is wrong to be captain stuff is hilarious. 1st thornton was to easy going, don't care about anything attitude. Now its he cares to much and he is to in your face.

 

[SJGoalie32]

I think hb is specifically talking about his Playoff PPG being significantly lower than his regular season PPG, which has been true almost every year

Exactly. It's not that Thornton doesn't have decent point totals, it's that they aren't of the same caliber that his regular season numbers make people believe he has the talent to reproduce.

In the Regular Season, Joe Thornton puts up the kind of numbers that are guaranteed to enshrine him in the Hall of Fame. In the Playoffs, that production level disappears and his numbers since the 2004-05 lockout (while still quite decent overall) don't even place him among the top 2 members of the Sedin family.

Regular Joe Thornton is a Hall-of-Fame talent. Playoff Joe Thornton is merely a relatively average 1st liner. Relatively average first liners tend not to win too many cups unless they are playing beneath other HOF'ers.

If Playoff JT showed up in the regular season, the Sharks would have been a perennial bubble team, occasionally good enough to battle for a division title. If Regular JT (the HOF-destinged guy who led the Sharks to multiple division titles and a President's Trophy) could produce at anything even just approximating the same Hall-of-Fame caliber production in the playoffs, the only question would be how many times Joe Thornton would have his name on the Cup.

Unfortunately he *isn't* two different guys. He is the same guy. There are observable reasons why his production drops so dramatically, and it isn't just due to puck luck. A lot of it has to do with the way he plays the game....something which benefits his linemates/teammates during the regular season but which harms them in the postseason.

And while it is certainly fair to argue that the Sharks maybe *could* have won a Cup or two anyway without higher production from JT if they had just had other HOF players or greater depth (strange that all those same inadequate "depth" players were good enough to help the Sharks win so many division titles and post multiple 100-pt seasons), the truth still remains that even in his better showings JT himself was not playing so supremely well that you could absolve him of the loss. Thornton is not Barry Bonds or JS Giguere standing on his head and putting up historic numbers while the rest of his charges fell in heartbreaking defeat.

 

[dechire]

In the Playoffs, that production level disappears and his numbers (while still quite decent overall) wouldn't even place him among the top 2 members of the Sedin family.

Except the list posted on the last page places him above both Sedins in playoff PPG. So you're correct that he wouldn't be among the top 2 Sedins but only because he's above them.

 

[CrypTic]

Everybody is going to say its a business. But you know what isn't? The very act of hockey itself. Are you seriously still not getting this?

Here, let me go ahead and paint the picture for you.

Let's say the NHL wanted to expand to lets say...Washington state. I, some billionaire with so much money goes, "Hey, NHL, I'll front every penny and even build the arena out of my own pocket. I want a winning team."

The NHL approves me, and it this point in time is where I decide. Does the fact that people come watch my team to win the cup actually matter to me? Or does my entire operation run on the premise that I need incredible hockey minds and incredible hockey players to perform to win the cup? Sure, it'd be nice to have both, but who is actually the boss, here? The people who sit there to be entertained or me and my vision of the team winning the cup? The point is, I answer to no one. Hell, if I don't want to sell beer in my arena during the hockey game, thats up to me, too.

What I am getting at here if you don't still quite understand is that building and having a winning team is not a business in and of itself. It just so happens that I am required to offer to sell you tickets to come see my team since the entire league wants to make money. It just so happens that any profitability that can help me recuperate my out of pocket costs is better for me and the league. I am however, not in any way obligated to please anyone other then the NHL standards and myself.

Except that is not how it works. You can tell that PF regularly reads the BoH boards (which has news and info about expansions). What you say seems based much more on someone's fantasy about how owning a hockey team works than on what observable actions owners (or potential owners) actually take.

Before you make up a fantasy about putting a team in Washington state, you might want to read at least a few threads (that go back a few years) on what actions have actually been taken WRT putting an NHL team in Seattle.

Most owners buy teams both for the prestige and the investment. If you think that most are not concerned with the investment aspect, I don't know what to tell you. In any event, Hasso Plattner has said that he is concerned with the Sharks not losing money (though it is not clear if he means just based on operating income, on income plus tax benefits, on the team's valuation, or on something else) so what an owner in your fantasies would do is irrelevant.

 

[SactoShark]

The whole thornton is wrong to be captain stuff is hilarious. 1st thornton was to easy going, don't care about anything attitude. Now its he cares to much and he is to in your face.

He cares too much and the stress of winning is getting to him.

He doesn't care about winning and wants to stay in San Jose through a rebuild.

 

[LeftHeartInSF]

Except the list posted on the last page places him above both Sedins in playoff PPG. So you're correct that he wouldn't be among the top 2 Sedins but only because he's above them.

I haven't seen a picture of either Sedin holding the Stanley either.

 

[Led Zappa]

He cares too much and the stress of winning is getting to him.

He doesn't care about winning and wants to stay in San Jose through a rebuild.

 

[dechire]

I haven't seen a picture of either Sedin holding the Stanley either.

This exists which is practically the same as winning it

 

[SJGoalie32]

Here is the stat-line. The drop is there, but then again I don't think everything wrong with the Sharks can be lopped on JT http://www.hockey-reference.com/leaders/points_per_game_active_p.html 20th place.

I agree that not *everything* wrong with the Sharks can be lopped on JT. But he is a part of it and (to my eyes) is often an active contributor to what's wrong. And it does seem there are a contingent of Sharks fans and apologists who seem to give a free pass to JT no matter what he does.

Pretty much every other forward, defenseman, goaltender, and even coach has paid the price for those failures over the years, yet JT still remains. After a full decade, JT, PM, DW, and Vlasic are pretty much the only guys left. Everybody else has been cleaned out, replaced, and the replacements cleaned out and replaced, and the same issues still seem to be there.

It's not ALL on JT, but I get frustrated at the contingent who seems to argue that none of it is him. Especially after last year where James flippin' Sheppard scored as many points as JT did in far less ice time, yet the apologists STILL want to blame the 4th liners for not playing like superstars and not the actual superstar.

Thank you...now I am curious which of those players have been to 10 years of playoffs. He is #20...that's still incredibly good.

#20 is good. But in a 16-team tournament where only ONE team gets to win the ultimate prize, a team whose best player is not as good as 19 others is a serious problem.....and not one that is going to be rectified by some magical combination of gritty Bottom-6 depth forwards.

(Also, those are only the active guys. Doesn't take into account the other top players who have won Cups during JT's tenure who have since retired)

20th best doesn't exactly scream Playoff Loser to me. He's above both Sedins, Datsyuk, Hossa and Bergeron who have all played in a similarly large number of playoff games and don't have a reputation of being useless.

20th best doesn't make him a Playoff Loser. But the part where he is 6TH BEST under the same metric for Regular Season scoring does provide statistical evidence that he dramatically underperforms in the second season in a way that no other player seems to, and to a degree that cannot be chalked up to mere luck.

 

[CrypTic]

It's not ALL on JT, but I get frustrated at the contingent who seems to argue that none of it is him. Especially after last year where James flippin' Sheppard scored as many points as JT did in far less ice time, yet the apologists STILL want to blame the 4th liners for not playing like superstars and not the actual superstar.

Who is saying that? I'm sure there are a few ppl here saying it (bc there are a few ppl here on that put most of the blame on only one party, whether that is DW, TMac, Thornton, Niemi, Plattner, whomever) but it seems to me that most ppl are saying that Thornton (and DW and TMac and the other players) shares some of the blame.

 

[Beaviz81]

I agree that not *everything* wrong with the Sharks can be lopped on JT. But he is a part of it and (to my eyes) is often an active contributor to what's wrong. And it does seem there are a contingent of Sharks fans and apologists who seem to give a free pass to JT no matter what he does.

Pretty much every other forward, defenseman, goaltender, and even coach has paid the price for those failures over the years, yet JT still remains. After a full decade, JT, PM, DW, and Vlasic are pretty much the only guys left. Everybody else has been cleaned out, replaced, and the replacements cleaned out and replaced, and the same issues still seem to be there.

It's not ALL on JT, but I get frustrated at the contingent who seems to argue that none of it is him. Especially after last year where James flippin' Sheppard scored as many points as JT did in far less ice time, yet the apologists STILL want to blame the 4th liners for not playing like superstars and not the actual superstar.

He has his share of the blame. For me its more DW's mortgaging of the future that finally have bit you in the back several years after it should have.

Another poster made excellent points about the way SJS play building themselves around JT and basically JT is not as competent facing better defenders where before his superhuman vision on the ice created a lot of chances and goal for SJS. But when it comes time for playoffs tighter marking start to play an active role, and after the first round you tend to meet more sturdy defenses while you tended to have at best average defenses, but basically he has covered what I want to state there.

 

[LeftHeartInSF]

This exists which is practically the same as winning it

I said holding the cup. They are just holding each other. Close but no cigar.

 

[SJGoalie32]

Except the list posted on the last page places him above both Sedins in playoff PPG. So you're correct that he wouldn't be among the top 2 Sedins but only because he's above them.

I knew someone was going to latch onto that that, which is I quickly edited my post (not quickly enough) to compare the two just since the 04-05 lockout.....or rather, since JT joined the Sharks.

One of the posts I was referencing displayed JT's stats since he joined the Sharks. I compared the Sedins post-lockout playoff stats and JT's.

Furthermore, it appears I did make a slight calculation error. JT is not below Daniel, he's actually smidge ahead of him....though still a smidge behind Henrik. The three are all statistically comparable....as are the number of Cups they've won.

I concede my slight error, but not my overall point. Regular Season JT is a sure-fire no doubt Hall-of-Famer. When the regular season clock strikes midnight, he becomes less like Joe Sakic or Stan Mikita, and more like a Sedin.

And I don't mean that to disparage the Sedins (who are very good players in their own right) but the drop-off between those two talent groups is quite substantial.

 

[Beaviz81]

Well you also have the Swedish twins commercial



EDIT: How do I get the Youtube-vid to get embedded in the post?

 

[SJGoalie32]

Who is saying that? I'm sure there are a few ppl here saying it (bc there are a few ppl here on that put most of the blame on only one party, whether that is DW, TMac, Thornton, Niemi, Plattner, whomever)

And it's those ones I debate the most with (though other people will still read my posts, and I will use still other people's posts to further my own points).

but it seems to me that most ppl are saying that Thornton (and DW and TMac and the other players) shares some of the blame.

I am among them. At this point, I want them all gone. But there are of course those posters who want to keep their personal favorite. So we argue against them. Or at least their points.

 

[LeftHeartInSF]

Well you also have the Swedish twins commercial https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6tBr6PMkBY

EDIT: How do I get the Youtube-vid to get embedded in the post?

Put the part after v= between the link helper.

 

[CrypTic]

And it's those ones I debate the most with (though other people will still read my posts, and I will use still other people's posts to further my own points).

Thanks. Gotcha. I tend to ask for/challenge the basis of their claims bc it seems to me that they are usually built on conjecture that ignores key facts. It sounds like we have the same goal then. (I don't necessarily want them all gone but I wouldn't be upset if they were.)

 

[Beaviz81]

And it's those ones I debate the most with (though other people will still read my posts, and I will use still other people's posts to further my own points).

You are speaking to the choir there, I always have rows with the Brian Burke-apologists when discussing the Leafs. Seriously they are damn fanatical. So I can understand you.

 

[HipCzech]

It's actually not that great.

First off though, let me say that I am not in fact lumping all of our problems on Joe, but he is a problem, and I will explain why I believe that. First and foremost though let me be clear that I do not think Joe is doing this on purpose or it is a lack of effort on his part.

The reason it is not that great is because this chart isn't comparing it to his regular season numbers. Joe is at a .98ppg regular season total right now. As you see here he's a .76ppg pace career in the playoffs. That is a 23% drop. He's still good in the playoffs, but he's significantly worse in the playoffs than he is in the regular season. As a comparison, Patrick Kane is a .97ppg in the regular season and a .98ppg in the playoffs. That is a playoff leader. That and Toews (who only drops off 4%) are a HUGE reason why the Hawks have two cups. The Sharks have no one who can compare to either.

Now, the why. Joe Thornton's point pace drops off so severely in the playoffs simply because by nature of being in the playoffs you are playing against the best defensive teams. The best defensive teams have a pretty easy job defending Thornton. Why? Because he's predictable. All you have to do is assume he will pass and shutdown the lanes and you are going to cripple him. Good teams can do this very well. There are other factors, such as the Sharks blue line sometimes not being enough of a threat (making covering the forwards even easier), but Joe's refusal to shoot the puck and score goals himself, while admirable, is extremely limiting. You know Thornton will pass, stop the pass, that's it.

Now what compounds the problem is that the team is accustomed to Thornton doing all the heavy lifting, they are built around that. He is such a phenomenal player that it's very hard not to do that. His linemates become used to waiting for their magical Thornton special and stop trying to create on their own. Thornton dominates the puck so much it's difficult for his linemates to do much except shoot. Come playoff time when good teams shutdown Thornton his linemates, even when they are top end players, do not have the time to adapt. They've spent an entire season (or more) getting used to Thornton's amazing passes and when those dry up they are left struggling to produce.

That is the issue. It's not that Joe's a bad guy, or he's a choker, it's that Joe's play style is actively harmful to the team around him come playoff time. He's a crutch, and as soon as that crutch is removed the team falls over and ends up struggling to get up. By the time they get up, it's over and they are limping home.

Great summary.

But that possession stat though... in 3...2...1

 

[HipCzech]

I WISH we were rebuilding

We're treading water

If we miss the playoffs and say draft 11th, then I'm curious by which metrics you can argue that we treaded water this season? For the sake of the discussion, let's ignore the DW/JT drama.

 

[LeftHeartInSF]

If we miss the playoffs and say draft 11th, then I'm curious by which metrics you can argue that we treaded water this season? For the sake of the discussion, let's ignore the DW/JT drama.

New thread time.

 

[CrypTic]

If we miss the playoffs and say draft 11th, then I'm curious by which metrics you can argue that we treaded water this season? For the sake of the discussion, let's ignore the DW/JT drama.

I'll explain why I consider that treading water. But I'd like to note that this is pure conjecture at this point. We don't know where we will be drafting or even if we will miss the playoffs (though the latter is likely).

If we draft 11th OA, we are unlikely to draft an elite player, especially if we draft a D-man (where, except for goalies, our need is the greatest). Had we drafted in the top 5 (or even probably 7 or 8), we could certainly get an elite prospect. Would that prospect turn into an elite player? Who knows but the odds of that are much higher if we drafted, e.g., Marner or Werenski than if draft a prospect that is likely to be available at 11.

The org has many depth prospects. While it is commendable that, overall, the org has been good at drafting such players, getting more of them is not an org need. We need some elite players. So IMO if we are rebuilding, we should maximize our chances of getting one. It is very rare to get such a player via trades. It is possible (see Thornton, Seguin, Forsberg) but not something any org should count on.

Let me turn the question around. If we draft at 11 OA, by what metrics did the Sharks make progress? What if we draft at 14 OA?

 

[hockeyball]

If we miss the playoffs and say draft 11th, then I'm curious by which metrics you can argue that we treaded water this season? For the sake of the discussion, let's ignore the DW/JT drama.

If we draft top 10 I will consider this season not wasted. It likely means we drafted a truly elite player, hopefully either a top-end D-man or a #1 center. Either way it fills an enormous hole.

If we do not draft top 10, I will consider this season iffy and we'll simply have to see how things pan out.

I would also be pretty happy with a top-15 pick as long as we have a 2nd pick in the top 30.

I of course will be thrilled if we get a top-10 pick AND a 2nd top 30 pick

At this point, if I had two 1st's and one was a top-10 while I'd be tempted to go for that defensemen, I'd likely pick a center like Rantanen, Zacha, Marner or Barzal then hope with a later pick I could grab Roy and be absolutely thrilled.

 

[weastern bias]

We're getting the 15th pick

Book it