Doug Wilson speaks on taking C from Joe: Joe tells DW to "Shut his mouth"

[hockeyball]

We're getting the 15th pick

Book it

Tonights game will be a big indicator. Lose and we're likely top 12 at worst.

 

[SactoShark]

We're getting the 15th pick

Book it

#30

 

[weastern bias]

This season has been as bland and stale as week old mayo

I fully expect the most mediocre end game possible

 

[Led Zappa]

We are not treading water because our prospects are getting more NHL ready. Most of the team ain't floating into retirement in the next few years and most importantly we aren't trading picks and prospects for rentals.

We are not tanking. Sorry if that rustles your jimmies. If you think that's the only way to rebuild, as I've said for years, the NHL is in trouble. Not to mention that tanking doesn't guarantee a Cup.

 

[Beaviz81]

We are not treading water because our prospects are getting more NHL ready. Most of the team ain't floating into retirement in the next few years and most importantly we aren't trading picks and prospects for rentals.

We are not tanking. Sorry if that rustles your jimmies. If you think that's the only way to rebuild, as I've said for years, the NHL is in trouble. Not to mention that tanking doesn't guarantee a Cup.

Tanking doesn't need to go great as you say. NYI was the beating-boy of the league for years. And for every team like Pittsburgh, Chicago and Los Angeles that managed to pull through you have Ottawa and Philly that couldn't and lost. Plus you have the teams that basically imploded like Colorado, Edmonton and Buffalo who all saw their hopes burnt to ashes around them. Tanking is dangerous as okay you get one great player, but you need to flesh out the area around him or you are running on fumes like Colorado and Edmonton.

 

[HipCzech]

We're getting the 15th pick

Book it

You didn't answer my question above.

 

[Coy]

We could still realistically end up with the #8 pick I think if we play decently poor down the stretch anything past that we would have to get lucky but with a #8 pick in this draft you could get a really solid player.

 

[Evil Janney]

If we end up with a top-10 pick, can you guys imagine the amount of 2nd round picks we can get by trading it?!?!

 

[Coy]

If we end up with a top-10 pick, can you guys imagine the amount of 2nd round picks we can get by trading it?!?!

*7th round picks. That's what you meant to say. We could get like 50 of them.

 

[SJGoalie32]

But it really isn't SIGNIFICANTLY LOWER, except last year.

Overall, it IS significantly lower. And the drop-off is worse than just about every other comparable top player on that list.

Every single one of those other guys are scoring about the same, slight reduction, or even a slight increase. JT has the biggest drop-off of anybody with a substantial number of games played

Further, in the playoffs you play against the cream of the crop. In the regular season, half the games are against garbage. Please...

Yes....which is part of why his game suffers so much.

Goals in the playoffs are scored in transition and/or battling in front of the net. JT doesn't go to the prime scoring areas. JT doesn't drive the net. JT doesn't push the transition and try to take advantage of moving defensemen/goalies to create odd-man rushes and mismatches. He stands relatively stationary at one of the same two spots (half-boards or behind the net) and tries to feed passes into or through triple-coverage.

Against regular season garbage, Pavs or Couture or whomever can find enough gaps to score consistently. In the playoffs, against stout defenses & goalies who game-plan and adjust to the Sharks for 2 full weeks, those windows disappear. Thornton is still good enough to feed the occasional pass through the hard shell anyway (or make an uncontested pass back to the point to the guy who shoots and either scores or creates a tip or rebound), but more than anybody else, his stats suffer the most because his game is the most predictable and the most easily defended by a good defensive team. JT *could* help his team in the playoffs by taking the open ice they give him driving the net more, or rotating off the puck into the slot more so that Pavs and Couture don't keep absorbing all the physical abuse while JT stands comfortably off to the side out of harm's way (and out of any prime scoring areas), but he refuses to do that.

 

[Kcoyote3]

Doug Wilson has traded the 8th overall pick to Los Angeles for the 28th overall pick, the 178th overall pick, and a 4th rounder in 2017.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

...

Your first part is a lot of idealistic stuff that isn't reality and certainly not reality for this franchise, its owners, and the people working for him. Even in your idealistic scenario of a singular purpose of building a winning team, if someone isn't getting that job done, they are replaced regardless of their position on the team.

You can talk about how reasonable you are and what your expectations are but I'm going to go off what was said by the guy running the team. He expects them to be a playoff team. Regardless of how genuine that statement is, if you say it, you ought to be held to it. If it doesn't come to pass, he should be held accountable for failing to meet that expectation. Him saying that he won't trade futures to help the team is fine but you still have to do your job to make that happen and if you can't, buh-bye. It's not anyone else's decision but his to cut himself off and not help the team.

As for Weber, in terms of high quality d-men it depends on the parameters of the argument. There have been plenty of defensemen that are great contributors picked at his range and certainly picked within the Sharks range. You should be able to throw in Subban. If we're throwing Keith in, you can make arguments for guys like Letang, Josi, Carlson, Barrie, Faulk, Yandle, and Green.

As for Hertl, he's got a lot more to work on than just his scoring opportunities to be someone like Toews. Hertl doesn't have that kind of playmaking ability yet. He isn't in Toews' league defensively. Certainly things he can work on and incorporate into his game to some extent but you're getting ahead of yourself believing that's all within him based on what he's shown.

When you talk about dodging the bullet, you're not even realizing you're making a hypocritical statement. Yeah, you can be happy you dodged a bullet but a mistake was made in picking him in the first place. You can't just ignore that and only praise the guy for getting rid of the mistake. I vehemently disagreed then and now that Setoguchi was the better choice and even if you think he was, that was a mistake and is deserving of criticism. It was a poor choice then. It proved to be a poor choice as it went on. Their reasoning for it was complete nonsense.

As for the rebuild, I'm sorry but when you have a GM saying that they're rebuilding and at the same time saying they're expected to be a playoff team, somewhere in there is a red flag of bull ****. And maybe it's just me but when you keep a core group around like Thornton, Marleau, Couture, Pavelski, Burns, Vlasic, and Niemi, it's going to be awfully difficult to do a real legitimate rebuild. Because for that to happen, you have to have a group of high-quality young players to build around and be in a position to add more to that. Hertl, Nieto, and Mueller are not enough and not good enough to be that and the team's talent level is too high to get to a level to reasonably expect a pick to be at that level at least up front. But the Flames is actually a great reference point because what DW has done leads more to them being like that than a rebuilding team.

As for the final part, where DW didn't feel anything. That is false. Not just based on opinion but based on the fact that that's what Wilson said was the reason why he made that statement. So now not only are you disagreeing with what the organization has said and practiced regarding how they handle hockey ops, you are now disagreeing with what DW has said he felt.

You're really going off the rails with these responses, man.

 

[magic school bus]

This season has been as bland and stale as week old mayo

I fully expect the most mediocre end game possible

So, everybody stays and we just trade Brown for a 7th?

Doug Wilson has traded the 8th overall pick to Los Angeles for the 28th overall pick, the 178th overall pick, and a 4th rounder in 2017.

Then trades the 28th and 46th for the 27th.

 

[HipCzech]

I'll explain why I consider that treading water. But I'd like to note that this is pure conjecture at this point. We don't know where we will be drafting or even if we will miss the playoffs (though the latter is likely).

If we draft 11th OA, we are unlikely to draft an elite player, especially if we draft a D-man (where, except for goalies, our need is the greatest). Had we drafted in the top 5 (or even probably 7 or 8), we could certainly get an elite prospect. Would that prospect turn into an elite player? Who knows but the odds of that are much higher if we drafted, e.g., Marner or Werenski than if draft a prospect that is likely to be available at 11.

The org has many depth prospects. While it is commendable that, overall, the org has been good at drafting such players, getting more of them is not an org need. We need some elite players. So IMO if we are rebuilding, we should maximize our chances of getting one. It is very rare to get such a player via trades. It is possible (see Thornton, Seguin, Forsberg) but not something any org should count on.

Let me turn the question around. If we draft at 11 OA, by what metrics did the Sharks make progress? What if we draft at 14 OA?

Doesn't matter which way you ask the question, I'm just curious what all the expert armchair GMs are using as their metrics? That's not aimed at you Cryptic.

I wonder what metrics DW is using? Take out the money/profit side of it.

Some might be:
1) X games played by players under the age of X
2) Leadership group changed, see who steps up?
3) Players still listening to coach?
4) Like LZ mentioned, prospect development in other leagues
5) Draft like you mentioned

What are some others?

 

[CrypTic]

Doesn't matter which way you ask the question, I'm just curious what all the expert armchair GMs are using as their metrics? That's not aimed at you Cryptic.

Thanks. I realized that. I prefaced my answer bc you'd asked someone else (Weastern Bias?), not me. I wasn't sure if you were interested in other ppls' answers of just his/hers.

I'll try to reply to the rest of your post later. Interesting discussion.

 

[SJGoalie32]

So, everybody stays and we just trade Brown for a 7th?

Classic Sharks rebuild

 

[Beaviz81]

Doesn't matter which way you ask the question, I'm just curious what all the expert armchair GMs are using as their metrics? That's not aimed at you Cryptic.

I wonder what metrics DW is using? Take out the money/profit side of it.

Some might be:
1) X games played by players under the age of X
2) Leadership group changed, see who steps up?
3) Players still listening to coach?
4) Like LZ mentioned, prospect development in other leagues
5) Draft like you mentioned

What are some others?

There is a saying. In boxing everyone is an expert but noone is a player, in chess noone is an expert but everyone is a player.

 

[OrrNumber4]

It's actually not that great.

First off though, let me say that I am not in fact lumping all of our problems on Joe, but he is a problem, and I will explain why I believe that. First and foremost though let me be clear that I do not think Joe is doing this on purpose or it is a lack of effort on his part.

The reason it is not that great is because this chart isn't comparing it to his regular season numbers. Joe is at a .98ppg regular season total right now. As you see here he's a .76ppg pace career in the playoffs. That is a 23% drop. He's still good in the playoffs, but he's significantly worse in the playoffs than he is in the regular season. As a comparison, Patrick Kane is a .97ppg in the regular season and a .98ppg in the playoffs. That is a playoff leader. That and Toews (who only drops off 4%) are a HUGE reason why the Hawks have two cups. The Sharks have no one who can compare to either.

Now, the why. Joe Thornton's point pace drops off so severely in the playoffs simply because by nature of being in the playoffs you are playing against the best defensive teams. The best defensive teams have a pretty easy job defending Thornton. Why? Because he's predictable. All you have to do is assume he will pass and shutdown the lanes and you are going to cripple him. Good teams can do this very well. There are other factors, such as the Sharks blue line sometimes not being enough of a threat (making covering the forwards even easier), but Joe's refusal to shoot the puck and score goals himself, while admirable, is extremely limiting. You know Thornton will pass, stop the pass, that's it.

Now what compounds the problem is that the team is accustomed to Thornton doing all the heavy lifting, they are built around that. He is such a phenomenal player that it's very hard not to do that. His linemates become used to waiting for their magical Thornton special and stop trying to create on their own. Thornton dominates the puck so much it's difficult for his linemates to do much except shoot. Come playoff time when good teams shutdown Thornton his linemates, even when they are top end players, do not have the time to adapt. They've spent an entire season (or more) getting used to Thornton's amazing passes and when those dry up they are left struggling to produce.

That is the issue. It's not that Joe's a bad guy, or he's a choker, it's that Joe's play style is actively harmful to the team around him come playoff time. He's a crutch, and as soon as that crutch is removed the team falls over and ends up struggling to get up. By the time they get up, it's over and they are limping home.

That's what I've been saying!

 

[OrrNumber4]

The reality that the people who want to hold players accountable fail to grasp is that if you buy into that concept, you absolutely must hold the GM accountable for that very issue anyway because he is the one that manages the entire operation. However, most of what I'm seeing regarding the fire DW crowd is that they want to hold him AND the players accountable. Often the DW defenders are misrepresenting the position of those they're arguing against.

If this franchise wants a real fresh start, DW has to go, TMac has to go, Jumbo and Patty have to go and anyone else with a clause or even without one that doesn't want any part of the team going forward has to go.

This type of issue is not something that will go away contrary to how Mr. Roenick has to think. This affects everyone whether they admit it or not. The guy in charge of all staff and personnel decisions has practically the entire locker room against him on this issue. That's not a healthy relationship regardless of whether Jumbo and DW legitimately hash out the issue.

Well said.

 

[hockeey]

Forgive me if this has already been posted but I looked through the past couple pages and didn't see anything. DW says Joe isn't going anywhere:

http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=782567

 

[drunksage]

Forgive me if this has already been posted but I looked through the past couple pages and didn't see anything. DW says Joe isn't going anywhere:

http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=782567

It's been posted, but I don't think the video link has been shared.

Also, really close to 1000 posts so it's closing time.