Doug Wilson speaks on taking C from Joe: Joe tells DW to "Shut his mouth"

[SactoShark]

Shut your mouth and stop lying.

 

[CrypTic]

I WISH we were rebuilding

We're treading water

I agree. Though I agree with HipCzech that Hasso is probably at least partly behind the stagnation. Speculation re: Hasso and the team's composition was pretty much beaten to death at the beginning of the season when many ppl were upset about the team's lack of direction. But it is still just as frustrating to fans so I think ppl (including me!) will still complain bc it seems mind-bogglingly stupid.

 

[weastern bias]

Joe Thornton is a career 0.98 point per game regular season player


PLAYOFFS WITH THE SHARKS:

YEAR GAMES POINTS
2005-06 11 9
2006-07 11 11
2007-08 13 10
2008-09 6 5
2009-10 15 12
2010-11 18 17
2011-12 5 5
2012-13 11 10
2013-14 7 3

Last year was the first real dip.

So please don't spout nonsense.

I think hb is specifically talking about his Playoff PPG being significantly lower than his regular season PPG, which has been true almost every year

 

[LeftHeartInSF]

We aren't entitled to a cup. The friggin Kings with Gretzky and Robitaille never won a cup. Other teams have waited longer with similarly great lineups to win a cup. We aren't Colorado in the early 2000's...we never brought that solid of personnel in.

Enjoy Thornton while you have him because players of his calibre are so few and far between. In fact, he is the only one of his calibre we have ever had, and is probably the best we will ever have for a long time. Who else on this team do you think is going to step to Joe's level. Couture? Pavelski? I love those guys too but seriously...

Get real.

 

[LeftHeartInSF]

I think hb is specifically talking about his Playoff PPG being significantly lower than his regular season PPG

But it really isn't SIGNIFICANTLY LOWER, except last year.

Further, in the playoffs you play against the cream of the crop. In the regular season, half the games are against garbage. Please...

 

[weastern bias]

But it really isn't SIGNIFICANTLY LOWER, except last year.

Further, in the playoffs you play against the cream of the crop. In the regular season, half the games are against garbage. Please...

I'm not the 'stats guy', but I have seen posts showing that his PPG diminishes at a greater rate from RS to PO than it does for other comparable players (your Getzlafs, Toewss(?), Kopitars, Crosbys, so on)

I have no data to substantiate this, but I'm sure someone who doesn't need to commute to work in 10 minutes could do some digging

Combine this with his painful plus minus and especially poor performance in must win situations, and Joe's resume is less than stellar in the POs

You're right that no one 'deserves' a cup, you earn and win one

Joe was never good enough to do it on his own, and he never had the team to help him there

 

[HipCzech]

Joe Thornton is a career 0.98 point per game regular season player


PLAYOFFS WITH THE SHARKS:

YEAR GAMES POINTS
2005-06 11 9
2006-07 11 11
2007-08 13 10
2008-09 6 5
2009-10 15 12
2010-11 18 17
2011-12 5 5
2012-13 11 10
2013-14 7 3

Last year was the first real dip.

So please don't spout nonsense.

He's talking about the difference from his regular season numbers and his playoff numbers. There is a big drop. That is not good for winning games in the playoffs. It's well documented he's a stubborn players who refuses to adapt his game in the playoffs.

 

[CrypTic]

Enjoy Thornton while you have him because players of his calibre are so few and far between. In fact, he is the only one of his calibre we have ever had, and is probably the best we will ever have for a long time. Who else on this team do you think is going to step to Joe's level. Couture? Pavelski? I love those guys too but seriously...

Get real.

I agree. I'm fine with Thornton staying. If he were the cancer that many here seem to think or if he were the primary reason that the players didn't listen to TMac in the playoffs last year, I'm not sure why TMac would be siding with Joe in the recent kerfuffle with DW.

If Joe wants to go, I'm fine with that too. I'll wish him the best and be thankful for the years he was here.

What I am not fine with is DW's apparent passive-aggressive attempts to get him to waive (per speculation here and pretty much everywhere else bc that's what DW's actions strongly suggest) while not directly asking Joe to waive his NMC. Be an adult: if you want Joe to waive, ask him directly. Don't take actions that harm the team by bad-mouthing players in the hopes that Joe will take the hint. If you don't want him to waive, have his back and come out and clearly say to the press that you want him here.

 

[boylerroom]

At the end of the day it really all comes down to this for me...

Joe Thornton's and Patrick Marleau's time in SJ and the NHL is coming to a close. And honestly, it cannot come soon enough for this fan. I'm tired of the homerism, the choking, and all the bull ****.

Fire DW - Don't fire DW, I really don't care. I'm gonna dance a jig when we're finally free of the stink that has hung over this organization like a could for the last decade. I'm so ready for an entirely different crew of players.

And I don't care how many pts Jumbo scores or records that Patty gets in the org... They never won a cup, period.

As A SF Giants fan, watching that team become a dynasty really does heal all past wounds from previous Giants failures. AND, believe we when I tell you, other than Will Clark, (who will always be my favorite athlete) you forget pretty quick about players that failed to win when your favorite team FINALLY hits their golden years...

In short, I'm just done with this SJ squad and I'm ready for new blood.

 

[hockeyball]

He's talking about the difference from his regular season numbers and his playoff numbers. There is a big drop. That is not good for winning games in the playoffs. It's well documented he's a stubborn players who refuses to adapt his game in the playoffs.

Yup.

I can't look it up right now, but as I recall it goes from about a ppg to .8 per game int eh playoffs. That is a huge drop off compared to his peers.

 

[RainbowDash]

Let's just say that your point of view is not shared by a single person that is involved with the San Jose Sharks because every single person like Hasso, DW, and TMac have made statements in some form or fashion saying that it's a business

Everybody is going to say its a business. But you know what isn't? The very act of hockey itself. Are you seriously still not getting this?

Here, let me go ahead and paint the picture for you.

Let's say the NHL wanted to expand to lets say...Washington state. I, some billionaire with so much money goes, "Hey, NHL, I'll front every penny and even build the arena out of my own pocket. I want a winning team."

The NHL approves me, and it this point in time is where I decide. Does the fact that people come watch my team to win the cup actually matter to me? Or does my entire operation run on the premise that I need incredible hockey minds and incredible hockey players to perform to win the cup? Sure, it'd be nice to have both, but who is actually the boss, here? The people who sit there to be entertained or me and my vision of the team winning the cup? The point is, I answer to no one. Hell, if I don't want to sell beer in my arena during the hockey game, thats up to me, too.

What I am getting at here if you don't still quite understand is that building and having a winning team is not a business in and of itself. It just so happens that I am required to offer to sell you tickets to come see my team since the entire league wants to make money. It just so happens that any profitability that can help me recuperate my out of pocket costs is better for me and the league. I am however, not in any way obligated to please anyone other then the NHL standards and myself.

...in TMac's case, he has specifically referred to it as a results-oriented business. So if you can't even agree with a very basic premise that the entire organization goes off of, there isn't much to do here with you. You're beyond hope.

Hey, heres what TMac's case actually is. He, himself, is in the business of results. That doesn't mean it aligns with my vision in my fictional team I made up. If he doesn't deliver in his promises, then I should and could very well be pretty pissed off that he doesn't deliver me a team that wins the cup. That depends on entirely how reasonable am would be as a fictional owner of a team, right?

I can't expect a great coach to get results from players who aren't good enough to take on other teams top players.
Its the other way around, too. I can't expect great players to win the cup if the coach has a **** gameplan that isn't going to win the game.

There is some accountability on the GM as well. I can't expect my team to be successful if the GM insists that drafting Dylan Strome is a better 1st overall pick then Connor McDavid. I can't expect my team to be successful if he sells my star players for a bag of pucks, and then turns around and buys rental players for my teams next 10 years of 1sts.

You conveniently ignore that the real world application line included sports world application. You ask how this team failed with the same key people in key areas. That's easy, your premise is false. You need at least two lines and two pairs of d-men that are reliable and performing well to get into the playoffs. They've had 3rd wheel problems on both top two lines all year. They've had issues with the 4th d-man in some form or fashion all year with either Braun or Mueller/Dillon/Demers struggling. The only guy among that group one may call key is Braun but I don't think one key guy struggling is why the team is falling apart. But let's say this entire premise is true, we know DW has absolved himself of this because he wants a rebuild, right? So why are you blaming it on the players when you look at the entire roster and you see a clear lack of proven talent and a crap ton of inexperienced players in roles that are not just depth roles?

I didn't expect the Sharks to contend for the cup. Much less make the playoffs. Clearly, I don't believe this team can win after last years exit. How is that not clear to you? This team needs to rebuild. Period. Its probably why TMac hasn't been fired, yet. Thornton needs to go. Patty probably needs to go. TMac needs to go when the team is ready to make deep playoff runs.

With regards to McLellan and those three years, no they couldn't have because in the two years they went to the conference finals, they were badly outmatched by Vancouver and Chicago. Why? Easy, their blue line was pretty poor in comparison to those two teams. The Sharks were pretty easy for most playoff teams to adjust to because their weakness was pretty much the same. You chip it in on the left side and you have very good odds of getting the puck off the d-man on that side. Something that has never really changed since the 2005 lockout for this team. But when it comes more towards McLellan and why he may not be considered a success, he's had three first round exits. He has equaled Ron Wilson's playoff series number where Wilson went 5 for 9 and McLellan is 5 for 11. The difference being that TMac went to the conference finals once more but lost three times in the first round.

You already know what I think of TMac. No need to rehash it.

With regards to the Weber deal, when it comes to d-men it is certainly reasonable that after 12 years you would find one. But let's not pretend like the Sharks didn't have their chances under this regime to pick one of those guys and didn't. 2003 was just the first one. There's enough of them out there that in the time that DW has been GM, it's a reasonable expectation to have landed one. And hell, they don't even all have to be franchise level d-men either. How about just offensive ones that can make it and contribute at the NHL level? They've only been able to do that with Ehrhoff and Demers and they quickly gave up on them.

Demers was never given a complete fair shake in this organization. I blame TMac for it.

and No, it is not reasonable at all that we find a Shea Weber within 12 years. Again, how many teams have those players? I can only think of Shea Weber and Duncan Keith at this moment.

As for Hertl, it's tough to say that he's going to have the skating ability to be that level of a player either. We'll see but I'm not expecting it out of him.

The thing with Hertl is that he has such a knack for making incredible scoring opportunities and he knows it, so he starts moving. If he can develop and fine tune his ability to execute and finish then we have someone who is legitimately as good as Jonathan Toews. Again, we should all be ecstatic that we have someone like him.

As for Setoguchi, that's such a hypocritical statement to make. You can't praise them for projecting him out to be a loser and trading him then go back and say it was a good pick because that didn't happen, did it?

Uh, you absolutely could be glad that you dodged a bullet. Thats not being a hypocrite. Thats just being smart. For example, I think Jack Johnson is complete ****, and LA was smart to sell him to the Jackets for what they got.

Also, pretty sure the issues that made him available to trade were the same issues that were there when they drafted him. The fact that they took him over Kopitar only makes it worse because they're looking for the wrong things in prospects at the time but that has been a common theme with this regime.

At the time, Setoguchi was a better choice. The org probably thought that he was going to be a great forechecking and score 30 goals every year. They thought he might grow up if he was surrounded with responsible individuals. He didn't. We saw it. We sold high. Came out on top.

Well, for one he didn't really do what he said he was going to do. Because first of all, he said he was going to rebuild. So here's the problem you have here. If you say that they are going to rebuild and he did rebuild then you can't say that they have the key players in key spots and are just underperforming because if they have those key players in those key spots then they aren't rebuilding. So which is it?

They're rebuilding. I don't want them to make the playoffs. That hurts the bottom line of the rebuild. God forbid we become the Flames.

DW did actually pick Hannan because he re-signed him. DW did pick Irwin because he re-signed him and kept him. If he wanted Mueller in the lineup, he certainly has options to remove players playing over him or canning the coach refusing to play who he wants if he doesn't agree. But just the mere fact that the coach and the GM have not really been on the same page is a crack. DW is certainly involved with the cuts at training camp. He's there evaluating with TMac. They do cuts in conjunction. When it comes to who stays on the roster, nothing TMac does happens without DW's approval.

DW isn't interested in being the coach or doing coach things. Thats delusional. There is nothing to suggest that DW micro manages the team. TMac says he has a good relationship with DW in all previous reports. I am not so sure about it right now. I am sure DW certainly is still pissed about the fact that TMac has clearly lost the room and thats why they melted down. That never looks good, and certainly doesn't feel good either.

Your last bit is hilarious because the only reason why the DW-Thornton spat even happened in the first place is because DW felt like he had to answer to a season ticket holder that was not satisfied. It's just hilarious that you continue to argue against a concept that the team has said they go by and practice. I mean, come on man. DW and TMac both have said in so many words or even specifically that it is a results-oriented business. So either they're wrong, the people in said business, or you're wrong. I'm probably going to go with you being wrong.

DW didn't feel anything. Selling tickets helps the organization, and thats the bottom line. What DW probably didn't expect is for Joe Thornton to react the way he did. In fact, when the captaincy was taken from him, I am sure DW probably told him something to the extent that its ok to be proud but at this point and this critical turn in this organization you need to knock that **** off and be professional.

I can only speculate so much about what DW and Thornton have talked about behind closed doors, but we all know it sure wasn't pleasant for either of them.

 

[weastern bias]

In short, I'm just done with this SJ squad and I'm ready for new blood.

It's gonna be a little bit

The way I see it, we're at very least stuck with Joe and Patty until their contracts expire

If Hasso is as un-involved as some have come to fear, we could be stuck with Doug for a loooooooong time

 

[LeftHeartInSF]

Yup.

I can't look it up right now, but as I recall it goes from about a ppg to .8 per game int eh playoffs. That is a huge drop off compared to his peers.

I would like to see the stat lines of these peers who have 10 playoff season appearances. I acknowledge the drop but I have to believe the sample size of these peers is smaller.

 

[Beaviz81]

I would like to see the stat lines of these peers who have 10 playoff season appearances. I acknowledge the drop but I have to believe the sample size of these peers is smaller.

Here is the stat-line. The drop is there, but then again I don't think everything wrong with the Sharks can be lopped on JT http://www.hockey-reference.com/leaders/points_per_game_active_p.html 20th place.

 

[sharski]

Nick Cotsonika ‏@cotsonika 5m5 minutes ago

Sharks GM on Joe Thornton: ‘Our relationship is at really good place’ http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-p...onship-is-at-really-good-place-195154890.html

LOL @ expecting us to believe that… they need to schedule a joint interview on The Barbershop with Brutus "The Barber" Beefcake to confirm this



I can actually kind of see the resemblance between DW-Jannetty and Jumbo-Michaels

a Jumbo heel turn would be SO AWESOME… it really is the perfect timing… most of the fans are on his side, but he's clearly got the tendency to "lash out" at people like a heel, so it would make sense

 

[LeftHeartInSF]

Here is the stat-line. The drop is there, but then again I don't think everything wrong with the Sharks can be lopped on JT http://www.hockey-reference.com/leaders/points_per_game_active_p.html 20th place.

Thank you...now I am curious which of those players have been to 10 years of playoffs. He is #20...that's still incredibly good.

 

[weastern bias]

^ LOL

Joe and Doug are SO The Rockers

 

[LeftHeartInSF]

^ LOL

Joe and Doug are SO The Rockers

And we all know who the real superstar of that group was!

 

[weastern bias]

And we all know who the real superstar of that group was!

Vince McMahon?

 

[dechire]

Here is the stat-line. The drop is there, but then again I don't think everything wrong with the Sharks can be lopped on JT http://www.hockey-reference.com/leaders/points_per_game_active_p.html 20th place.

20th best doesn't exactly scream Playoff Loser to me. He's above both Sedins, Datsyuk, Hossa and Bergeron who have all played in a similarly large number of playoff games and don't have a reputation of being useless.

 

[Beaviz81]

Thank you...now I am curious which of those players have been to 10 years of playoffs. He is #20...that's still incredibly good.

Most of them when I give it a shallow reading. Actually at previous lists he and Patty tended to be even higher.

 

[Led Zappa]

20th best doesn't exactly scream Playoff Loser to me. He's above both Sedins, Datsyuk, Hossa and Bergeron who have all played in a similarly large number of playoff games and don't have a reputation of being useless.

This is irrelevant. The MEME will continue.

 

[dechire]

This is irrelevant. The MEME will continue.

Well I mean he's below Toews so his intangibles obviously don't stack up. Thornton might as well be a bag of pucks sitting on the ice.

 

[Beaviz81]

20th best doesn't exactly scream Playoff Loser to me. He's above both Sedins, Datsyuk, Hossa and Bergeron who have all played in a similarly large number of playoff games and don't have a reputation of being useless.

I have never argued that Joe is useless. I just think he is badly tempered and unfit to be a captain. He is a leader, but the wrong kind in order to bring home a playoff-trophy.

 

[hockeyball]

Thank you...now I am curious which of those players have been to 10 years of playoffs. He is #20...that's still incredibly good.

It's actually not that great.

First off though, let me say that I am not in fact lumping all of our problems on Joe, but he is a problem, and I will explain why I believe that. First and foremost though let me be clear that I do not think Joe is doing this on purpose or it is a lack of effort on his part.

The reason it is not that great is because this chart isn't comparing it to his regular season numbers. Joe is at a .98ppg regular season total right now. As you see here he's a .76ppg pace career in the playoffs. That is a 23% drop. He's still good in the playoffs, but he's significantly worse in the playoffs than he is in the regular season. As a comparison, Patrick Kane is a .97ppg in the regular season and a .98ppg in the playoffs. That is a playoff leader. That and Toews (who only drops off 4%) are a HUGE reason why the Hawks have two cups. The Sharks have no one who can compare to either.

Now, the why. Joe Thornton's point pace drops off so severely in the playoffs simply because by nature of being in the playoffs you are playing against the best defensive teams. The best defensive teams have a pretty easy job defending Thornton. Why? Because he's predictable. All you have to do is assume he will pass and shutdown the lanes and you are going to cripple him. Good teams can do this very well. There are other factors, such as the Sharks blue line sometimes not being enough of a threat (making covering the forwards even easier), but Joe's refusal to shoot the puck and score goals himself, while admirable, is extremely limiting. You know Thornton will pass, stop the pass, that's it.

Now what compounds the problem is that the team is accustomed to Thornton doing all the heavy lifting, they are built around that. He is such a phenomenal player that it's very hard not to do that. His linemates become used to waiting for their magical Thornton special and stop trying to create on their own. Thornton dominates the puck so much it's difficult for his linemates to do much except shoot. Come playoff time when good teams shutdown Thornton his linemates, even when they are top end players, do not have the time to adapt. They've spent an entire season (or more) getting used to Thornton's amazing passes and when those dry up they are left struggling to produce.

That is the issue. It's not that Joe's a bad guy, or he's a choker, it's that Joe's play style is actively harmful to the team around him come playoff time. He's a crutch, and as soon as that crutch is removed the team falls over and ends up struggling to get up. By the time they get up, it's over and they are limping home.