Dominik Hasek greatest goalie ever?

[Plural]

Brodeur, by far, the best goalie ever. Stats speak for themselves. and a legitimate Stanley Cup run this late in his career solidifies it, imo.

Yeah, no.

I can see someone making an argument for Brodeur at no:1 (altough i would disagree) but there is no way to say he is the best goalie ever, by far.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I don't take anyone seriously who says goalie x is the best of all time by far

 

[Hobnobs]

I don't take anyone seriously who says goalie x is the best of all time by far

agreed

 

[Theokritos]

I guess I wasn't clear. I meant that Tretiak faced basically no competition from other USSR goalies domestically, so I think it's likely that his large number of "Soviet player of the year" awards is probably partly due to the fact that he stood out so much against every other goalie in the USSR.

The fact that he didn't stand out that much when compared to other goalies in Europe is a major reason I believe this.

World Championship tournaments are one thing, the course of a whole season is something else. Examples:

1981
Soviet League: Tretiak is Player of the Year ahead of Maltsev.
World Championship: Tretiak receives the IIHF Directorate Award, but the journalists who vote the All-Star Team prefer Peter Lindmark.
Golden Stick: Tretiak is in 1st place with 462 points (votes: 119-51-3), Lindmark in 5h place with 132 points (votes 25-24-9).
Conclusion: Tretiak and Lindmark both were good in the WC tournament, both possible award winners. But over the course of the season Tretiak was by far the better goaltender.

1982
Soviet League: Tretiak is third, behind Fetisov and Makarov.
World Championship: Jiří Králík wins the IIHF Award and the journalists' vote, Tretiak has nothing to show for.
Golden Stick: Tretiak is in 1st place (224 points, 61-11-19), Králík is in 9th place (points and votes unavailable, but he's the "undrafted Czech" who later finished 5th in 1983 and 1st in 1985).
Conclusion: Králík obviously outplayed Tretiak in the World Championships, but over the course of the season, Tretiak was again the better goaltender by far. I think it's a bit like Giguere winning the Conn Symthe in 2003, but Brodeur winning the Vezina.

Top 5 finishes in European Golden Stick voting:
Tretiak: 1st (1981), 1st (1982), 1st (1983), 2nd (1984)
Peter Lindmark (Sweden): 3rd (1986), 5th (1981), 5th (1988)
Jiří Králík (Czechoslovakia): 1st (1985), 5th (1983)
Dominik Hašek (Czechoslovakia): 2nd (1989), 3rd (1984), 3rd (1987)

As for Hasek, who was his competition in Europe during the mid-late 80s?

Czechoslovakia: Jaromír Å indel, Petr Bříza. Sweden: Peter Lindmark, Rolf Ridderwall. Finland: Jarmo Myllys, Jukka Tammi. Soviet Union: Sergei Mylnikov, Yevgeni Belosheikin.
Probably nothing to rave about, but if the people who saw Tretiak and voted him into first places in the early 1980s then saw Hašek and voted him into second and third places a couple of years later, then I think we should assume Hašek was clearly behind Tretiak, but not by mile. Vague? Yes, but that's as far as this record carries you.

 

[Killion]

I don't take anyone seriously who says goalie x is the best of all time by far

... impossible to determine. Inconsistencies exist with the best. Part art part science. Does not compute.

 

[Andrew Knoll]

Brodeur, by far, the best goalie ever. Stats speak for themselves. and a legitimate Stanley Cup run this late in his career solidifies it, imo.

By far? You do realize that he broke Sawchuk's records, who played in an era with shorter schedules and many, many more ties, right?

Brodeur has a case but to say he is "by far" better than Sawchuk, Roy, et al is a huge reach.

 

[Plural]

I don't take anyone seriously who says goalie x is the best of all time by far

This is a good way to put it.

 

[Dalton]

I would say that Brodeur has perhaps been the most successful career wise but not necessarily the best.

The best performances I recall were Vachon in a Canada cup, Tretiak against Canada and Hasek with Buffalo. I think goalies today with bigger equipment, teams devoted to limiting opportunities are hard to compare with goalies from the past who IMHO had better reflexes, instincts and glove hands as a rule.

Brodeur reminds me of Dryden. I'm never really secure with them in net. They are not convincing. The three I mentioned above however at certain times were simply unbeatable one on one (skater beats D and goes in alone). Or appeared to be.

I've never been a fan of Roy because of his oversized equipment and sweater. I could never agree that he was the best. Hasek beat him in the Olympics which I think supports that POV considering the talent on both teams. I think Vachon had the best performance ever by a Canadian goalie in an international tourney that I witnessed.

Give these guys old equipment and see how they fare without the shotblocking. LOL. Then you can make your argument that they are better today than yesteryear as a matter of fact. I look at Sawchuck's stats and will always wonder how an argument could be made that anyone was better. That certainly wasn't the opinion of those who saw him and the goalies that were around in my youth.

I would say Hasek was the best I've seen over an NHL season and playoffs. More than once in fact. I can't decide on number two. I lean towards Parent.

 

[Huis Clos*]

I would say that Brodeur has perhaps been the most successful career wise but not necessarily the best.

The best performances I recall were Vachon in a Canada cup, Tretiak against Canada and Hasek with Buffalo. I think goalies today with bigger equipment, teams devoted to limiting opportunities are hard to compare with goalies from the past who IMHO had better reflexes, instincts and glove hands as a rule.

Brodeur reminds me of Dryden. I'm never really secure with them in net. They are not convincing. The three I mentioned above however at certain times were simply unbeatable one on one (skater beats D and goes in alone). Or appeared to be.

I've never been a fan of Roy because of his oversized equipment and sweater. I could never agree that he was the best. Hasek beat him in the Olympics which I think supports that POV considering the talent on both teams. I think Vachon had the best performance ever by a Canadian goalie in an international tourney that I witnessed.

Give these guys old equipment and see how they fare without the shotblocking. LOL. Then you can make your argument that they are better today than yesteryear as a matter of fact. I look at Sawchuck's stats and will always wonder how an argument could be made that anyone was better. That certainly wasn't the opinion of those who saw him and the goalies that were around in my youth.

I would say Hasek was the best I've seen over an NHL season and playoffs. More than once in fact. I can't decide on number two. I lean towards Parent.

Roy lead the Canadiens to a cup title in 1986 wearing the "old" equipment.

 

[diligent_d]

I didn't read the previous 20 pages, but I inhabit the school of thought that Jacques Plante was the best ever: such a headcase, but seven Vezina trophies is amazing. Better than Terry Sawchuk, in my opinion.

I think Dominik Hasek and Patrick Roy follow those two respectively, thought I might put Hasek ahead of Sawchuk.

 

[ricky0034]

I didn't read the previous 20 pages, but I inhabit the school of thought that Jacques Plante was the best ever: such a headcase, but seven Vezina trophies is amazing. Better than Terry Sawchuk, in my opinion.

I think Dominik Hasek and Patrick Roy follow those two respectively, thought I might put Hasek ahead of Sawchuk.

the Vezina back then was a different trophy and pretty much what the Jennings is today though

year end all-star teams are the best way available to measure how he would have done if the Vezina was actually a best Goalie trophy back then:

he only had 3 first team(4 second team)

hell the year he shared the Vezina with Hall he didn't even get second team....

contrast that to Hasek who actually got first team all 6 of his Vezina years

 

[diligent_d]

the Vezina back then was a different trophy and pretty much what the Jennings is today though

year end all-star teams are the best way available to measure how he would have done if the Vezina was actually a best Goalie trophy back then:

he only had 3 first team(4 second team)

hell the year he shared the Vezina with Hall he didn't even get second team....

contrast that to Hasek who actually got first team all 6 of his Vezina years

Good point regarding the First Team All Star selections. I see both Plante and Sawchuk had three. Along with the Vezina trophies and First Team selections, it's hard also to argue with Hasek's two Hart trophies (and three more nominations on top of that.)

Plante obviously gets points for innovation, but the case for Hasek as best ever is definitely tangible. As stated above, I had him as 2nd or 3rd - but I might have to rethink that.

 

[plusandminus]

Many posts in this thread. Looking at the stats, I think it should be clear that Hasek is by a large margin the best NHL regular season goalie since at least 1987 onwards. No other goalie has stood out as much as Hasek did. Roy is likely a clear 2nd.
As shown, Hasek was great in the domestic league too, as well as internationally. I remember him catching eyebrows not only because his stellar play, but also by introducing (he may not have been the first) things like moving the goalpost if the opponents got close to scoring.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Many posts in this thread. Looking at the stats, I think it should be clear that Hasek is by a large margin the best NHL regular season goalie since at least 1987 onwards. No other goalie has stood out as much as Hasek did. Roy is likely a clear 2nd.

And herein lies the rub, how much weight does regular season performance get and how much does playoff performance get.
I agree that Hasek was more dominant in the regular season than Roy but not to the degree that Roy was more dominant than Hasek in the playoffs.

As shown, Hasek was great in the domestic league too, as well as internationally. I remember him catching eyebrows not only because his stellar play, but also by introducing (he may not have been the first) things like moving the goalpost if the opponents got close to scoring.

Heh, not even close to the first. From '84 till '93, while the magnet posts were in use, pretty much every goalie in the league was doing it.
The main reason they even went to the Marsh pegs was because it was getting out of control.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Hell, I remember in either the '91 or '92 playoffs, Habs vs Bruins, the Habs were down a goal with their goalie pulled. They were swarming the Boston goal, Moog ended up standing up with his front to the net and he just blatantly shoved the net off. Habs score into the net when it was a good 6-8 inches off the moorings and the ref counted it anyway. He all but laughed at Moog when he tried to complain about it and repeated to him the exact motion Moog used to push the net off.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Hell, I remember in either the '91 or '92 playoffs, Habs vs Bruins, the Habs were down a goal with their goalie pulled. They were swarming the Boston goal, Moog ended up standing up with his front to the net and he just blatantly shoved the net off. Habs score into the net when it was a good 6-8 inches off the moorings and the ref counted it anyway. He all but laughed at Moog when he tried to complain about it and repeated to him the exact motion Moog used to push the net off.

Game 7 of 1991.

 

[Dalton]

Roy lead the Canadiens to a cup title in 1986 wearing the "old" equipment.

That's one season not a career. Penny and Theodore did pretty well for themselves over short timespans as well. However I'll concede that I wasn't aware of it. I just remember those huge shirts and pads. But none of this relates to talent. Give me a 4x8 sheet of plywood for a chest protector and I might win a few games. Even at my age.

I seem to remember something about equipment in one of the Olympics being less than what the NHL allowed. But I forget the result. It may shed some light on the subject as it puts the NHL's best back into older equipment. Wasn't Roy involved in that?

IIRC and I wouldn't put money on it, that's the year Hasek's team beat Canada.

I think equipment changes and rule changes make it very difficult to judge talent across time. That's just two variables. Going by my eyeballs and trying to handicap for equipment advantages I think Hasek was most talented and I feel that Parent was the next most remarkable compared to his peers over full seasons and playoffs.

For longevity, well look at Brodeur today. He's probably the most successful goalie of all time but not quite the best or most talented.

 

[Rhiessan71]

That's one season not a career. Penny and Theodore did pretty well for themselves over short timespans as well. However I'll concede that I wasn't aware of it. I just remember those huge shirts and pads. But none of this relates to talent. Give me a 4x8 sheet of plywood for a chest protector and I might win a few games. Even at my age.

I seem to remember something about equipment in one of the Olympics being less than what the NHL allowed. But I forget the result. It may shed some light on the subject as it puts the NHL's best back into older equipment. Wasn't Roy involved in that?

IIRC and I wouldn't put money on it, that's the year Hasek's team beat Canada.

I think equipment changes and rule changes make it very difficult to judge talent across time. That's just two variables. Going by my eyeballs and trying to handicap for equipment advantages I think Hasek was most talented and I feel that Parent was the next most remarkable compared to his peers over full seasons and playoffs.

For longevity, well look at Brodeur today. He's probably the most successful goalie of all time but not quite the best or most talented.

A lot of people like to bring up the '98 Olympics when discussing Roy and Hasek.
The reality however is that Hasek did not outplay Roy. 1/3 of the goals Roy allowed in the entire tounry came in the Bronze medal game 3-2 loss to Finland that Canada didn't have its heart into.

The Czech's actually outshot Canada 29-25 in their game.

To this day, I still believe the Czech's were lucky that it did go to a shootout. If it was sudden death OT until someone scored, it's much more unlikely that Roy loses.

 

[Tmu84]

A lot of people like to bring up the '98 Olympics when discussing Roy and Hasek.
The reality however is that Hasek did not outplay Roy. 1/3 of the goals Roy allowed in the entire tounry came in the Bronze medal game 3-2 loss to Finland that Canada didn't have its heart into.

The Czech's actually outshot Canada 29-25 in their game.

To this day, I still believe the Czech's were lucky that it did go to a shootout. If it was sudden death OT until someone scored, it's much more unlikely that Roy loses.

Not sure what your point is here. Usually the winning goaltender is the one who has outplayed the opposing side goaltender. Even if it's just one goal difference. That is hockey. 29-25 shots on goal is pretty damn close meaning the game could have gone either way. So what? Thanks to great goaltending on both sides it went to shootout. And Canada had pretty damn good team in '98.

Hasek was the king of shootouts. Hasek won over Roy in the shootout. I was not that surprised that Hasek won the shootout back in '98

 

[Dalton]

A lot of people like to bring up the '98 Olympics when discussing Roy and Hasek.
The reality however is that Hasek did not outplay Roy. 1/3 of the goals Roy allowed in the entire tounry came in the Bronze medal game 3-2 loss to Finland that Canada didn't have its heart into.

The Czech's actually outshot Canada 29-25 in their game.

To this day, I still believe the Czech's were lucky that it did go to a shootout. If it was sudden death OT until someone scored, it's much more unlikely that Roy loses.

Hey, I'm Canadian, I agree with you but the record is what it is. Roy lost to Hasek in international competition despite the fact our team was superior by all accounts and measures at that time.

If that was the year that the goalies couldn't use there oversized NHL equipment then it supports my point even if only one game. IIRC Roy bullied his way into the starting position. The Canadian management team agreed only reluctantly and vowed never again afterwards.

IMHO they knew the equipment change had potential for problems but in the end IIRC goalies that may have helped out declined to attend because of Roy's demand.

This and the big shirt just don't allow me to concede that Roy was the best. One of absolutely. But I've seen better. And I've seen better performances in short tourneys. Parent was outstanding in two cup wins. Hasek for the Sabres, Tretiak for Russia and Vachon for Team Canada are examples. I never saw Sawchuck but my older relatives (RIP) raved about him and George Hainsworth for reasons not clear to me.

I'd be watching a game with them and someone would say his (Hainsworth) name. I was quite young then. Perhaps he has some terrific performance on his resume I've forgotten.

 

[Rexor]

Roy was excellent in that game, he was the main reason we didn't win in regulation.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

That's one season not a career. Penny and Theodore did pretty well for themselves over short timespans as well. However I'll concede that I wasn't aware of it. I just remember those huge shirts and pads. But none of this relates to talent. Give me a 4x8 sheet of plywood for a chest protector and I might win a few games. Even at my age.

I seem to remember something about equipment in one of the Olympics being less than what the NHL allowed. But I forget the result. It may shed some light on the subject as it puts the NHL's best back into older equipment. Wasn't Roy involved in that?

IIRC and I wouldn't put money on it, that's the year Hasek's team beat Canada.

I think equipment changes and rule changes make it very difficult to judge talent across time. That's just two variables. Going by my eyeballs and trying to handicap for equipment advantages I think Hasek was most talented and I feel that Parent was the next most remarkable compared to his peers over full seasons and playoffs.

For longevity, well look at Brodeur today. He's probably the most successful goalie of all time but not quite the best or most talented.

this is what roy's equipment looked like the year he won his second straight vezina trophies:

Hey, I'm Canadian, I agree with you but the record is what it is. Roy lost to Hasek in international competition despite the fact our team was superior by all accounts and measures at that time.

If that was the year that the goalies couldn't use there oversized NHL equipment then it supports my point even if only one game. IIRC Roy bullied his way into the starting position. The Canadian management team agreed only reluctantly and vowed never again afterwards.

IMHO they knew the equipment change had potential for problems but in the end IIRC goalies that may have helped out declined to attend because of Roy's demand.

This and the big shirt just don't allow me to concede that Roy was the best. One of absolutely. But I've seen better. And I've seen better performances in short tourneys. Parent was outstanding in two cup wins. Hasek for the Sabres, Tretiak for Russia and Vachon for Team Canada are examples. I never saw Sawchuck but my older relatives (RIP) raved about him and George Hainsworth for reasons not clear to me.

I'd be watching a game with them and someone would say his (Hainsworth) name. I was quite young then. Perhaps he has some terrific performance on his resume I've forgotten.

looks close enough to me.

 

[Killion]

I seem to remember something about equipment in one of the Olympics being less than what the NHL allowed. But I forget the result. It may shed some light on the subject as it puts the NHL's best back into older equipment. Wasn't Roy involved in that?

I think equipment changes and rule changes make it very difficult to judge talent across time. That's just two variables. Going by my eyeballs and trying to handicap for equipment advantages I think Hasek was most talented and I feel that Parent was the next most remarkable compared to his peers over full seasons and playoffs.

... over sized equipment or "cheating" is certainly a factor, though there are other less obvious forms of cheating, and its here I believe Hasek was indeed a fully blown practitioner.... I refer of course to telepathy, ESP. Neuro imaging using electromagnetic waves & elementary particles in forcing the shooter to put the puck exactly where you want him to do so. The Czechs have long been leaders in the field of psychical research & mental bionics, led by the likes of former blok scientist Zdenck Rejdak amongst others. Ostensibly, Dominik studied history & languages while attending the University of Hradec Kralove, though I believe he was actually deeply involved in developing his Psychotronic capabilities, honed to a razors edge. How else to explain his inexplicable performances?. For qualitative evidence, I need only point to but one example, and that would be the night of April 27th, 1994. A 70 save 4OT period 1-0 win against Brodeur & the Devils while playing for Buffalo. Case closed.

 

[tombombadil]

Good point regarding the First Team All Star selections. I see both Plante and Sawchuk had three. Along with the Vezina trophies and First Team selections, it's hard also to argue with Hasek's two Hart trophies (and three more nominations on top of that.)

Plante obviously gets points for innovation, but the case for Hasek as best ever is definitely tangible. As stated above, I had him as 2nd or 3rd - but I might have to rethink that.

This is fantastic. Usually, people just keep arguing their view, from constantly changing angles, if need be. I love when someone is man enough, and patient enough, to actually rethink their opinion. That's what these boards should be - educational.

I've already chimed in on this thread, i think, but for my two cents - Hasek is #1. Save%, Harts, and Vezinas (the kind that are individual), those are the numbers that matter. Roy and Thomas are the only other goalies, in my time, that i've visibly seen destroy shooters mentally, Roy, obviously having a bigger career between those two.

I think one thing that I love about Hasek that doesn't get mentioned is that he was only 5'11. We know nowadays, that these 6'4 butterfly machines are going to be stopping the puck upwards of .920, and a couple will get over .930 every year. Dom's statistical reign will end... but he was nearly an 80's sized goalie!

 

[Canadiens1958]

In Hockey Language.

... over sized equipment or "cheating" is certainly a factor, though there are other less obvious forms of cheating, and its here I believe Hasek was indeed a fully blown practitioner.... I refer of course to telepathy, ESP. Neuro imaging using electromagnetic waves & elementary particles in forcing the shooter to put the puck exactly where you want him to do so. The Czechs have long been leaders in the field of psychical research & mental bionics, led by the likes of former blok scientist Zdenck Rejdak amongst others. Ostensibly, Dominik studied history & languages while attending the University of Hradec Kralove, though I believe he was actually deeply involved in developing his Psychotronic capabilities, honed to a razors edge. How else to explain his inexplicable performances?. For qualitative evidence, I need only point to but one example, and that would be the night of April 27th, 1994. A 70 save 4OT period 1-0 win against Brodeur & the Devils while playing for Buffalo. Case closed.

Translated into the language of hockey, this means Hasek had an ability to make the shooter shoot or deke where Hasek wanted him to shoot or deke.

Most goalies especially the pre Michelin Man era had the ability to tease with fake looks that would try to get the shooter to make the play the goalie wanted.

Nothing overly exceptional, most did it to various degrees.