Dominik Hasek greatest goalie ever?

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Wasn't Roy's closest competition during his peak Ed Belfour, who was also in his regular season peak? That's pretty damn good.

Early 90s was not the cesspool of goaltending that the mid 80s was.

 

[toob]

Wasn't Roy's closest competition during his peak Ed Belfour, who was also in his regular season peak? That's pretty damn good.

Early 90s was not the cesspool of goaltending that the mid 80s was.

Agreed but i left out the early 90s precisely because of Belfour who was arguably better than Roy then.

 

[toob]

Wasn't Roy's closest competition during his peak Ed Belfour, who was also in his regular season peak? That's pretty damn good.

Early 90s was not the cesspool of goaltending that the mid 80s was.

Agreed but i left out the early 90s precisely because of Belfour who was arguably better than Roy then. Roy from my impressions was by far the dominant goalie of the late 80s. Belfour made that very close in the early 90s.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

One thing about HO's adjusted save percentage - IIRC, it compares a goalie to league average save percentage, not his closest competition. The league expanded from 21 to 26 to 30 teams between Roy and Hasek's regular season primes.

So while there probably were more good goaltending performances competing with Hasek, there were probably also more bad ones - the league added between 5 and 9 teams worth of goalies who wouldn't be playing in a 21 team league.

(this is correct, right?)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Agreed but i left out the early 90s precisely because of Belfour who was arguably better than Roy then. Roy from my impressions was by far the dominant goalie of the late 80s. Belfour made that very close in the early 90s.

Leaving to go see the Devils game.

I would be interested to see the Vezina finalists from Roy'a first time to Hasek's last to get a better gauge on high end competition

 

[quoipourquoi]

There have been quite a few posts intimating that Roy has had the better career (not in terms of playoffs included either) whereas Hasek has had the better peak and im assuming a lot of these have to do with Hasek's shorter NHL career.

It probably has more to do with Roy being a post-season All-Star or Vezina nominee in 8 different seasons, whereas Hasek hasn't a nominee outside his six wins - but I'm sure those people are including the playoffs too, as he had a few off-years with great playoffs.

What is your view on the matter? Was Roy in the mid 90s onward a better goalie than the closest competition to him in the late 80s or was he at their level or below? From then we can discuss Hasek's play during Roy's peak and Roy's play during Hasek's peak more completely.

Hard to say. Around their level, but more consistent (in that he wouldn't have a handful of years and then somewhat disappear like a Hextall or a Casey), I suppose. He was staying among the top ten in save percentage his entire career, but as I've said before, there were occasional flashes of a marked improvement in play (particularly in 1996-97, the 1997 playoffs, and the first half of 1997-98) that show that as a whole in the mid-90s, he wasn't his old self anymore. And as detailed a few pages ago, Colorado's system didn't do his save percentage as many favors as the Burns' system.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I would be interested to see the Vezina finalists from Roy'a first time to Hasek's last to get a better gauge on high end competition

I'll list the save percentages relative to Roy/Hasek as well:


1988*
Fuhr: -.019
Barrasso: -.004
Hrudey: -.004

1989
Vernon: -.011
McLean: -.017

1990
Puppa: -.009
Moog: -.019

1991
Belfour: +.004
Richter: -.003

1992
McLean: -.013
Essensa: -.004

1994
Vanbiesbrouck: -.006
Roy: -.012

1995
Belfour: -.024
Carey: -.017

1997
Brodeur: -.003
Roy: -.007

1998
Brodeur: -.015
Barrasso: -.010

1999
Joseph: -.027
Dafoe: -.011

2001
Cechmanek: +.000
Brodeur: -.015

2002
Theodore: +.006
Burke: -.005

 

[GuineaPig]

Belfour's Second All-Star Team placement in '95 is pretty baffling.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Belfour's Second All-Star Team placement in '95 is pretty baffling.

It's one of those cases where the goalies closest to Hasek in save percentage were backups/platooning goalies (Osgood, Thibault) or had losing records (Moog, Vanbiesbrouck). Belfour led the league in shutouts for the fourth-straight year though, but his statistics certainly were not what they were in his rookie season, nor what they would become on Dallas.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Having read the thread cover-to-cover over the past couple days, I have to say this has been a really compelling set of arguments.

One question I have for our math majors. I recall seeing it argued in a Tim Thomas thread that the higher a save% goes, the harder it is to sustain. Basically, once a goalie hits the .930 or .940 range, even a slight departure from that rate will quickly bring the total number back down to earth. Is that true?

The reason I ask being, was it mathematically harder for Hasek to sustain a large lead over his contemporaries in the .920 range than for Roy to do the same in the .890 range? Is a lead of .930 over .920 more impressive than a lead of .900 over .890? Or do both have the same value?

 

[Ivan13]

Having read the thread cover-to-cover over the past couple days, I have to say this has been a really compelling set of arguments.

One question I have for our math majors. I recall seeing it argued in a Tim Thomas thread that the higher a save% goes, the harder it is to sustain. Basically, once a goalie hits the .930 or .940 range, even a slight departure from that rate will quickly bring the total number back down to earth. Is that true?

The reason I ask being, was it mathematically harder for Hasek to sustain a large lead over his contemporaries in the .920 range than for Roy to do the same in the .890 range? Is a lead of .930 over .920 more impressive than a lead of .900 over .890? Or do both have the same value?

The same IMHO. Either way you're giving up one goal less over 100 shots than the competition.

 

[newfy]

Having read the thread cover-to-cover over the past couple days, I have to say this has been a really compelling set of arguments.

One question I have for our math majors. I recall seeing it argued in a Tim Thomas thread that the higher a save% goes, the harder it is to sustain. Basically, once a goalie hits the .930 or .940 range, even a slight departure from that rate will quickly bring the total number back down to earth. Is that true?

The reason I ask being, was it mathematically harder for Hasek to sustain a large lead over his contemporaries in the .920 range than for Roy to do the same in the .890 range? Is a lead of .930 over .920 more impressive than a lead of .900 over .890? Or do both have the same value?

It is much harder to go upwards from a .930 whereas when you have an .890 you have potential to have a good game and move up in save percentage quite easier.

 

[quoipourquoi]

It is much harder to go upwards from a .930 whereas when you have an .890 you have potential to have a good game and move up in save percentage quite easier.

But .890 is a good game in certain years... for instance in 1987, when there were only 28 shutouts in the entire season - compared to 1998, when there were 155. In the eras in which the standard for a good game was lower, the possibility of a perfect game to bolster a save percentage was exponentially lower.

 

[billybudd]

I would say yes.

 

[Pepe Silvia]

Who do you guys think is the greatest goalteneder to have ever played the game? Scratch that lets make it more ''relevant''.

Who do you think was the best goalie out of lets say: Hasek, Roy and Brodeur?


Hasek didn't have the privilige to play in such good teams as Colorado or Devils during their primes. Sure Sabres was good but he did not have the same group of talented players like Brodeur had for instance. Stevens, Niedermayer and so on. Playing in a very defensive style which helped Brodeur even more.

Brodeur is/was a great goalie but IMO Roy was better and Hasek was slightly better than both of them.


Hasek played around 3-400 games less than both Roy and Brodeur in NHL. Hasek has the highest save percentage through all time. He averaged: .922, and he had 2.20 GAA while Brodeur's GAA was 2.23 (playing in a better team with HoF's like Stevens, Niedermayer etc)


Hasek has also won the Olympics, Hart x2, Vezina x6, Lester B. Pearson Award x2, William Jennings Trophy x 3, Stanley Cup x2.



He has been nominated for another 3 Hart Trophies and perhaps the most impressive single-game performance by any player in NHL history came on April 27, 1994. Hašek made 70 saves in a 4OT shutout. The opposing goalie was Martin Brodeur, then a rookie, who made 49 saves before being beaten by Dave Hannan and the Sabres beat New Jersey 1–0. Hašek's 70 saves set a record, which still stands, for the most saves without allowing a goal.



Roy was good too, he was fenomenal. A true beast but he also played for a better team than Hasek and his stats aren't as good as Hasek's.


Alot of people usually say Roy when you ask the question, why I don't know.

Roy was one of the greatest but Hasek was something else. Hasek's save would linger on for months in your head. He just stood on his head over and over again.



He also set 25 franchise records in just 9 seasons playing for Buffalo.


What's your guys opinions on this matter?

even though i hate him, i gotta go with roy. guy was dominant while i was growing up. unreal in the playoffs, and an amazing competitor. hasek is called the dominator though lol. brodeur is my favorite of the 3. lucky to have been able to see all 3 play

 

[SidGenoMario]

If Brodeur gets another ring this year, would that change how any of you view his career?

 

[tarheelhockey]

If Brodeur gets another ring this year, would that change how any of you view his career?

Not enough to affect his ranking compared to Hasek and Roy.

Well, if he wins the Smythe then maybe it gets more interesting. Otherwise no.

 

[jaems]

If Brodeur gets another ring this year, would that change how any of you view his career?

Not if he just got a ring.

If he won the Conn Smythe, then maybe. But of the remaining four, he's probably the 4th most impressive goalie.

 

[GuineaPig]

I don't put much stock in awards, so no, not really.

What's more important to me is that Brodeur deserved a Conn Smythe (in '95 for sure, and he was a great, but overshadowed, candidate in '03 as well), rather than him actually winning one.

 

[Theokritos]

To play Devil's advocate, the Izvestia Golden Stick voting might show that Hasek stood out compared to other European goalies, but what does that mean? For the same reason, I question Tretiak's Soviet league MVP awards over Makarov or Fetisov - considering the Soviet Union was never a hot bed for goalies in general, maybe Tretiak just looked that good compared to every other goalie.

If everybody else looked so poor compared to Tretiak, how come Tretiak quite often drew the shorter straw in World Championship Awards?

Year | IIHF Directorate Award | Media All-Star Team
1972 | Jorma Valtonen (Fin) | Jiří Holeček (ČSSR)
1973 | Jiří Holeček (ČSSR) | Jiří Holeček (ČSSR)
1974 | Vladislav Tretiak (USSR) | Curt Larsson (Swe)
1975 | Jiří Holeček (ČSSR) | Vladislav Tretiak (USSR)
1976 | Jiří Holeček (ČSSR) | Jiří Holeček (ČSSR)
1977 | Göran Högosta (Swe) | Göran Högosta (Swe)
1978 | Jiří Holeček (ČSSR) | Jiří Holeček (ČSSR)
1979 | Vladislav Tretiak (USSR) | Vladislav Tretiak (USSR)
1981 | Vladislav Tretiak (USSR) | Peter Lindmark (Swe)
1982 | Jiří Králík (ČSSR) | Jiří Králík (ČSSR)
1983 | Vladislav Tretiak (USSR) | Vladislav Tretiak (USSR)

Seems like Europeans weren't blinded by Tretiak. Other goalies were good enough to repeatedly snatch away individual World Championship accolades from him.

And if they weren't blinded by Tretiak, why should we assume they were blinded by Hašek?

 

[Crazed Fan]

Brodeur, by far, the best goalie ever. Stats speak for themselves. and a legitimate Stanley Cup run this late in his career solidifies it, imo.

 

[GuineaPig]

Brodeur, by far, the best goalie ever. Stats speak for themselves. and a legitimate Stanley Cup run this late in his career solidifies it, imo.

Hasek went to the conference finals when he was 42...

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I don't put much stock in awards, so no, not really.

What's more important to me is that Brodeur deserved a Conn Smythe (in '95 for sure, and he was a great, but overshadowed, candidate in '03 as well), rather than him actually winning one.

i wouldn't say there was any single year where he could have won the smythe and not had it ceaselessly questioned by us for eternity a la '07 niedermayer. but i think it's more of a jagr/hart situation where he finished second or third a lot of times so his smythe share is a lot higher than his actual trophy case suggests.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

If everybody else looked so poor compared to Tretiak, how come Tretiak quite often drew the shorter straw in World Championship Awards?

Year | IIHF Directorate Award | Media All-Star Team
1972 | Jorma Valtonen (Fin) | Jiří Holeček (ČSSR)
1973 | Jiří Holeček (ČSSR) | Jiří Holeček (ČSSR)
1974 | Vladislav Tretiak (USSR) | Curt Larsson (Swe)
1975 | Jiří Holeček (ČSSR) | Vladislav Tretiak (USSR)
1976 | Jiří Holeček (ČSSR) | Jiří Holeček (ČSSR)
1977 | Göran Högosta (Swe) | Göran Högosta (Swe)
1978 | Jiří Holeček (ČSSR) | Jiří Holeček (ČSSR)
1979 | Vladislav Tretiak (USSR) | Vladislav Tretiak (USSR)
1981 | Vladislav Tretiak (USSR) | Peter Lindmark (Swe)
1982 | Jiří Králík (ČSSR) | Jiří Králík (ČSSR)
1983 | Vladislav Tretiak (USSR) | Vladislav Tretiak (USSR)

Seems like Europeans weren't blinded by Tretiak. Other goalies were good enough to repeatedly snatch away individual World Championship accolades from him.

And if they weren't blinded by Tretiak, why should we assume they were blinded by Hašek?

I guess I wasn't clear. I meant that Tretiak faced basically no competition from other USSR goalies domestically, so I think it's likely that his large number of "Soviet player of the year" awards is probably partly due to the fact that he stood out so much against every other goalie in the USSR.

The fact that he didn't stand out that much when compared to other goalies in Europe is a major reason I believe this.

As for Hasek, who was his competition in Europe during the mid-late 80s?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I finished compiling the Czech(oslovakian) golden stick voting here: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1085207&highlight=

Unfortunately, the full Izvestia golden stick results (for all of Europe) seem to have disappeared into the abyss.

Anyway, here are the relevant seasons for Hasek in the Czech golden hockey stick, competiton limited to Czechs and Slovaks who hadn't defected:

1983
1. Vincent Lukáč VSŽ Košice
2. Jiří Králík Dukla Jihlava
3. Jiří Lála Motor České Budějovice
4. Igor Liba Dukla Jihlava
5. Pavel Richter Sparta Praha
6. Ladislav Svozil TJ Vítkovice
7. Milan Chalupa Dukla Jihlava
8. Dušan Pašek Slovan Bratislava
9. Dárius Rusnák Slovan Bratislava
10. Dominik Hašek Tesla Pardubice

1984
1. Igor Liba Dukla Jihlava
2. Vladimír Růžička CHZ Litvínov
3. Milan Chalupa Dukla Jihlava
4. Dárius Rusnák Slovan Bratislava
5. Vladimír Caldr Motor České Budějovice
6. Jaromír Šindel Dukla Jihlava
7. Vincent Lukáč VSŽ Košice
8. Arnold Kadlec CHZ Litvínov
9. Dominik Hašek Tesla Pardubice
10. Pavel Richter Sparta Praha

1985
1. Jiří Králík TJ Gottwaldov
2. Igor Liba VSŽ Košice
3. Miloslav Hořava Dukla Jihlava
4. Petr Rosol Dukla Jihlava
5. Vincent Lukáč VSŽ Košice
6. Vladimír Růžička CHZ Litvínov
7. Petr Klíma Dukla Jihlava
8. Jiří Lála Motor České Budějovice
9. Dárius Rusnák Slovan Bratislava
10. Antonín Stavjaňa Dukla Trenčín

1986
1. Vladimír Růžička CHZ Litvínov
2. Igor Liba VSŽ Košice
3. Jiří Hrdina Sparta Praha
4. Dominik Hašek Tesla Pardubice
5. Petr Rosol CHZ Litvínov
6. Antonín Stavjaňa TJ Gottwaldov
7. Mojmír Božik VSŽ Košice
8. Peter Slanina VSŽ Košice
9. Ján Vodila VSŽ Košice
10. Jaromír Šindel Sparta Praha

1987
1. Dominik Hašek Tesla Pardubice
2. Jiří Hrdina Sparta Praha
3. Dušan Pašek Slovan Bratislava
4. Jiří Šejba Tesla Pardubice
5. Jaromír Šindel Sparta Praha
6. David Volek Sparta Praha
7. Antonín Stavjaňa TJ Gottwaldov
8. Jaroslav Benák Dukla Jihlava
9. Vladimír Růžička CHZ Litvínov
10. Jiří Doležal Sparta Praha

1988
1. Vladimír Růžička Dukla Trenčín
2. Igor Liba VSŽ Košice
3. Jaromír Šindel Sparta Praha
4. Dušan Pašek Slovan Bratislava
5. Dominik Hašek Tesla Pardubice
6. Peter Slanina VSŽ Košice
7. David Volek Sparta Praha
8. Jiří Lála Motor České Budějovice
9. Petr Bříza Motor České Budějovice
10. Petr Rosol CHZ Litvínov

1989
1. Dominik Hašek Tesla Pardubice
2. Vladimír Růžička CHZ Litvínov
3. Oto Haščák Dukla Trenčín
4. Otakar Janecký Tesla Pardubice
5. Jiří Šejba Tesla Pardubice
6. Peter Slanina VSŽ Košice
7. Vladimír Svitek VSŽ Košice
8. František Procházka CHZ Litvínov
9. Jerguš Bača VSŽ Košice
10. Bedřich Ščerban Dukla Jihlava

1990
1. Dominik Hašek Dukla Jihlava
2. Robert Reichel CHZ Litvínov
3. Jiří Doležal Sparta Praha
4. Jaromír Jágr Poldi Kladno
5. Petr Bříza Sparta Praha
6. Jerguš Bača VSŽ Košice
7. Robert Holík Dukla Jihlava
8. Oto Haščák Dukla Trenčín
9. Bedřich Ščerban Dukla Jihlava
10. Peter Bondra VSŽ Košice