Dominik Hasek greatest goalie ever?

Bear of Bad News

Your Third or Fourth Favorite HFBoards Admin
Sep 27, 2005
13,491
26,824
But if Hasek was square to a shooter and made 5 difficult saves in a game look easy wouldn't people not think he had a better game than if he made 5 saves look incredible. I don't think it would be a conscious overrating. More like him making saves look incredible, making him look better than if he made the saves look ordinary.

No; people would find the game with five incredible saves better (and I'm chiming in because my reason why is different than the response above).

We all have faulty memory biases, and it's easier to remember incredible saves. I can remember amazing saves from decades past (and I'm sure that you can too), but I can't recall very many details about goaltenders who made saves look ordinary.
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
3,215
I don't think that Hasek, while spectacular visually, gains as much from looking outside the numbers as a Patrick Roy (leadership), a Grant Fuhr (clutch play), or a Martin Brodeur (puck control).

...yes, those are all valid & interesting observations you make. Personally I tend to judge more from the subjective perspective, which style I preferred in terms of economy of effort, the blending of science (angles & numbers) & art (the visual aspects). Leadership, being a money player, reliability. All 3 meet that criteria & more. Its almost like comparing a Monet to a Matisse', the Beatles to the Rolling Stones. Which do you prefer?, not which is "better".

We all have faulty memory biases, and it's easier to remember incredible saves. I can remember amazing saves from decades past (and I'm sure that you can too), but I can't recall very many details about goaltenders who made saves look ordinary.

...ya, very true as well. A classic example of this would be Jacques Plante, his real salad days of the spectacular being his first decade of play, before my time, no memory, just legend & old game films to rely upon. His game seriously evolved, so by the time I was paying attention to him in the mid 60's fact is he was rather boring to watch, though tremendously effective, having very much pioneered the standup. Previous scoring opportunities requiring the spectacular from a goaltender as they'd played deeper in the crease & were prone to dropping to their knees, seriously stretching & at a disadvantage rendered moot as a result of taking away daylight, nothing for the shooter to hit but the goalie or the boards wide of the posts.
 

quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
4,126
Hockeytown, MI
...yes, those are all valid & interesting observations you make. Personally I tend to judge more from the subjective perspective, which style I preferred in terms of economy of effort, the blending of science (angles & numbers) & art (the visual aspects). Leadership, being a money player, reliability. All 3 meet that criteria & more. Its almost like comparing a Monet to a Matisse', the Beatles to the Rolling Stones. Which do you prefer?, not which is "better".

Whereas I try to remain objective - because I have a dog in this fight - and argue strictly with the numbers (I've said it before, no goaltender makes that position more difficult than Martin Brodeur). Subjectively, yes, I think Patrick Roy is better than Dominik Hasek. But I think that there is an objective argument to be made with just the numbers as well, so long as you value the NHL playoffs as being worth more on a per game basis than the regular season. I think that's the argument that often gets unexplored, and I thank Hockey Outsider for his work towards adjusted save percentages.
 

vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
28,736
16,127
bumping this because i think this is the closest thing we have to a comprehensive hasek vs. roy thread.

i was looking at the awards history of roy's early seasons. in his second season, he finished 4th in all-star voting (a decent ballot sample: 1-4-12, way ahead of the six votes #5 brian hayward got). in year three, he was the second team all-star goalie, behind fuhr, but finished a distant 8th in vezina voting.

after that, roy had his otherworldly half-decade peak and that stretch as the consensus best goalie in the world: 1st team all-star and vezina winner in '89, '90, and '92, second in both in '91, and of course the '93 conn smythe to cap it off.

my question is, did vezina voters (the GMs) not "get" roy at first? i ask because this is an argument often used on hasek's behalf, that north americans didn't "get" him at first, hence him not getting the reins on an NHL team until '94, at an age, 29, where his exact contemporary roy had already amassed a first ballot hall of famer career.
 

Doctor No

Registered User
Oct 26, 2005
9,250
3,971
hockeygoalies.org
I could see it plausible that voters (general managers) in Roy's prime didn't give him full credit because he wasn't doing it "the right way" (butterfly style).

Given that we now have relatively easy access to newspapers of the era, it seems like this could be supported with first-hand quotes if one were to dig hard enough.
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,778
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
I could see it plausible that voters (general managers) in Roy's prime didn't give him full credit because he wasn't doing it "the right way" (butterfly style).

Given that we now have relatively easy access to newspapers of the era, it seems like this could be supported with first-hand quotes if one were to dig hard enough.

Three main issues with Patrick Roy.

First four seasons played under 50 games.

Proximity of results to Brian Hayward.

His stamina resulting from a poor junk food diet and waiting to build his strength.

Butterfly, style was a non-factor. Remember Glenn Hall and Roger Crozier amongst others never lost style points.
 

vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
28,736
16,127
roy's earliest years were before my time. my earliest memories are around the '89 season, though i was a habs fan to start. but re: style points, i remember very distinctly that even in 1990 so after his vezina you would still hear people on HNIC saying stuff like "you can beat roy by shooting high."
 

Nick Hansen

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
3,120
2,651
Lindy Ruff on Hasek:

“Everything was calculated with Dom. He did everything for a reason. Some of it, nobody had seen before and it looked unorthodox to people, but we saw it on a nightly basis and said, ‘Ah, just another one of Dom’s saves,’ ” said Ruff. “For a goalie, he was incredible at reading the game. He would be yelling at our defencemen where to go … if there was a cross-ice pass and a back-door guy, he had it. Because he played so deep in the net, one little push and he was there.

Acrobatic Dominik Hasek never gave up on the puck during his NHL career
 
  • Like
Reactions: Doctor No

quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
4,126
Hockeytown, MI
my question is, did vezina voters (the GMs) not "get" roy at first? i ask because this is an argument often used on hasek's behalf, that north americans didn't "get" him at first, hence him not getting the reins on an NHL team until '94, at an age, 29, where his exact contemporary roy had already amassed a first ballot hall of famer career.

He was still invited to play for Canada (along with Fuhr, Hextall, and Hrudey) in 1987 before being that final cut, so I don't know that it was necessarily a case of not being totally understood by GMs, though I think voting among GMs has always been more narrative based (Joseph in 1999). Pokey Reddick's consideration for the Calder along with Ron Hextall (for which GMs would not have a say) may have played into his stronger Vezina representation than All-Star representation.

1987-88, he had a hot first half (and was selected to the All-Star Game), but Hayward had the hot second half. Could be that the media had longer memories.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Doctor No

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
3,215
Goalies who work hard at their game create their own luck, and without question Dominic Hasek was one of the hardest workers Ive ever heard about in the pantheon of goaltenders going way back. Incredible work ethic.... Now when you combine that with a hockey IQ that is off the charts, both horizontal & vertical vision, lightning fast reflexes, glove, stick, feet, being ultra aggressive in communicating with his defenders on the ice and in playing to the unfolding patterns in front of you.... your going to be making "knob saves", what appear to be spectacular "fish saves".

This guy re-thought the entire position however he was in fact borrowing heavily from the Goaltenders Bible, the dogma & practices of the past, making it his own. What appeared unorthodox to those who have closely studied the position (bonus if youve played it) actually quite orthodox provided your willing to take a stroll back in time through the space-time continuum. Some, not all, but some of Haseks' "unorthdox" style now the "orthodox" amongst the goaltending fraternity, taught from a young age, and you'll see at the NHL level be they European or domestically trained goaltenders employing the same techniques. What you cant teach however is fight & desire. Thats innate. Just as are the blessings of vision, reflexes. Hasek of course like all the greats, had all that in spades. Self motivated & low maintenance, demanding, very demanding of his teammates. Communicator. Director General back there. Same thing with all the greats.
 
Last edited:

The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
19,200
15,759
Tokyo, Japan
Reading back over this thread (after it was bumped) taught me a lot about Hasek's achievements pre-NHL, which I knew little about. Very interesting.

I have no dog in this fight -- I'm generally kind of dispassionate about goaltenders -- but I'll just add my thoughts:

-- I really don't think analyzing goaltenders' save-percentages (or any such stat) in the 80s to mid-90s is a useful exercise. After that era, when we get into Hasek's late-prime, it becomes more useful because the NHL teams were getting more stream-lined, there was more parity, and every team started playing the same style; i.e., all teams became more comparable. But c. 1985 to 1995, I don't really trust save-percentage or GSAA and whatnot as truly indicative of anything BECAUSE EACH TEAM's STYLES WERE SO DIFFERENT. Patrick Roy's numbers were favored by his joining the best defensive team in the 80s (Montreal) when he entered the NHL. Hasek's were not favored by joining Buffalo, which had middling-to-poor team defense, but later in the decade became defensively better as they built a team around Hasek. Conversely, when Montreal sagged a bit in the early/mid-90s, and after Roy joined high-octane Colorado, his numbers and statistical dominance also dipped a lot, as you would expect.

But raw stats simply don't tell the whole story anyway. The small difference in numbers is fairly trivial, I think, between any remotely comparable goaltenders of that era. Some teams regularly had 3-goal leads in the third period and let-up (leading to more goals against, i.e., the Grant Fuhr type), and some teams were so bad they had lost the game by the second period and subsequent goals against were meaningless (i.e. the Leafs in the 80s, Quebec early 90s).

The only time the stats become quite meaningful, I think, is when there is an extreme outlier - for example, Roy in the 1988-89 season, or Hasek's best save-percentage for (I think) six seasons in a row. But I really don't think there is any point in doing in-depth analysis of goalie-stats from that era (or indeed, most eras), if the numbers are even remotely close.


-- Patrick Roy's NHL playoff-performances were incredible and can't be under-estimated. I suspect Hasek's would have been similar (they aren't that bad, as it stands, with two Cups), but for the teams he played on -- the hand he was dealt, if you will. (I'm sorry, but I refute any argument that Roy's teams weren't way better in player-personnel than Hasek's.) However, the facts are the facts, and Roy was the superior playoff goaltender, with the numbers and Cups to prove it. On the other hand, Hasek came up in the 70s and became a big-time player in the 80s in the Czechoslovakia, where NHL success was a pipe-dream and the Olympics and World Championships were the #1 priorities. It perhaps isn't shocking that Hasek's Olympic/World Championship results are better then Roy's, while Roy's playoff results are better than Hasek's.


-- The one time they faced each other while each was in his late-prime (1998 Olympics), they both were superb, but Hasek won.



In short, I think it is very easy to make a strong case that Hasek is the greatest goaltender ever, from any of the perspectives of Olympics, world championships, NHL regular season, or NHL playoffs. Only on the last of those 4 does he fall behind Roy a bit.

It's one of those things, though -- Hasek led the '98 Sabres to a great season and the '99 Sabres to game 6 of the Finals. What else could he possibly have done other than scoring a hat-trick himself? And once he did get to play on a high-octane team, he immediately won the Cup.


I personally think Sawchuk, Roy, and Hasek are the three best claims for greatest goaltender. (I'm not personally bothered who is 1, 2, or 3.)
 

Doctor No

Registered User
Oct 26, 2005
9,250
3,971
hockeygoalies.org
I'm sorry, but I refute any argument that Roy's teams weren't way better in player-personnel than Hasek's.

To "refute" means to "prove (a statement or theory) to be wrong or false; disprove."

If you wanted to say that you won't accept any argument that Roy's teams..., then say that. You can't just say that you refute the claim; you actually have to refute it.

On the other hand, if you're willing to refute the claim, it would probably further the conversation.
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,778
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
I could see it plausible that voters (general managers) in Roy's prime didn't give him full credit because he wasn't doing it "the right way" (butterfly style).

Given that we now have relatively easy access to newspapers of the era, it seems like this could be supported with first-hand quotes if one were to dig hard enough.

Yup we have easy access to newspapers. But newspapers and media in general have access to more important stories:

The Other Side Of Patrick Roy

Enjoy the holiday season.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Killion

The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
19,200
15,759
Tokyo, Japan
To "refute" means to "prove (a statement or theory) to be wrong or false; disprove."

If you wanted to say that you won't accept any argument that Roy's teams..., then say that. You can't just say that you refute the claim; you actually have to refute it.

On the other hand, if you're willing to refute the claim, it would probably further the conversation.
Thanks for telling me what I'm allowed to do. Duly noted.

Also, I am deeply ashamed of misusing the word 'refute'.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BestCoaster

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad