Dominik Hasek greatest goalie ever?

[Theokritos]

That's kind of an important trait to have as a goalie, since they're not just handed a starting job.

Look, I didn't say self-discipline doesn't matter for a goaltender, it's understood it does. All I said is that it's possible Hašek was frustrated and demotivated to a degree in 1991-1992. It's a possible explanation why he stopped being outstanding in the IHL, nothing more, nothing less. No need to instigate a debate about self-discipline in hockey now. The real debate was and is: How good was Hašek in the early days? Vezina-level? NHL-level? Sub-NHL-level?

 

[JetsFanForever]

The whole point of playing in the NHL is to win in the playoffs and to ultimately win the cup. No other goalie did that better that Roy.

IMO, there is no argument here, Roy's playoff records (151 wins I believe) beats anything that Hasek did in the regular season.

If I had to pick one goalie to go into the playoffs with, I would pick Roy hands down.

 

[Canadiens1958]

1991-92 ihl

Look, I didn't say self-discipline doesn't matter for a goaltender, it's understood it does. All I said is that it's possible Hašek was frustrated and demotivated to a degree in 1991-1992. It's a possible explanation why he stopped being outstanding in the IHL, nothing more, nothing less. No need to instigate a debate about self-discipline in hockey now. The real debate was and is: How good was Hašek in the early days? Vezina-level? NHL-level? Sub-NHL-level?

1991-92 IHL team - last place, with a few NHL vet dmen, part of a multiple goalie rotation:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0000231992.html

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

You werent who i had in mind.

I also am definitely not buying that Hasek would be in the discussion for greatest player ever or even that he would be the best goalie in the 80s but those WC performances do have to count for something.

Hasek was named the best goalie at WCs in 87,89,90. These were the teams that Canada sent over:

1987 Men's World Ice Hockey Championships

Head coach: Dave King
Keith Acton
Brian Bellows
Doug Bodger
Sean Burke
Dino Ciccarelli
Kevin Dineen
Bruce Driver
Mike Foligno (C)
Bob Froese
Dirk Graham
Craig Hartsburg
Kirk Muller
Larry Murphy
Troy Murray
Barry Pederson
James Patrick
Dan Quinn
Paul Reinhart
Pat Riggin
Bob Rouse
Al Secord
Scott Stevens
Tony Tanti
Zarley Zalapski

1989 Men's World Ice Hockey Championships

Head coach: Dave King
Glenn Anderson
Brent Ashton
Dave Babych
Brian Bellows
Sean Burke
Randy Carlyle
Ken Daneyko
Kevin Dineen
Dave Ellett
Ray Ferraro
Grant Fuhr
Gerard Gallant
Dale Hawerchuk (C)
John MacLean
Mario Marois
Andrew McBain
Mark Messier
Kirk Muller (C)
James Patrick
Peter Sidorkiewicz
Scott Stevens
Pat Verbeek
Steve Yzerman (C)

1990 Men's World Ice Hockey Championships

Head coach: Dave King
Keith Acton
Greg Adams
Brian Bellows
Shawn Burr
Paul Coffey (C)
Murray Craven
John Cullen
Bob Essensa
Theoren Fleury
Doug Gilmour
Rick Green
Curtis Leschyshyn
Doug Lidster
Al MacInnis
Jamie Macoun
Kirk McLean
Joe Nieuwendyk
Michel Petit
Mark Recchi
Ron Sutter
Rick Tocchet
Ken Wregget
Steve Yzerman (C)

How many of those players were added after the first round, therefore having no chance at awards for the whole tournament?

That aside, this appears to be Hasek's Canadian competition for the best goalie award:

1987: Sean Burke, Bob Froese, Pat Riggin
1989: Sean Burke, Grant Fuhr*, Peter Sidorkiewicz
1990: Bob Essena, Kirk Maclean, Ken Wregget

*Added after the 7 game first round loss to Gretzky's Kings, I'm sure

A far cry from prime Roy and Belfour

 

[Hobnobs]

How many of those players were added after the first round, therefore having no chance at awards for the whole tournament?

That aside, this appears to be Hasek's Canadian competition for the best goalie award:

1987: Sean Burke, Bob Froese, Pat Riggin
1989: Sean Burke, Grant Fuhr*, Peter Sidorkiewicz
1990: Bob Essena, Kirk Maclean, Ken Wregget

*Added added the 7 game Steve Smith own goal series I'm sure

A far cry from prime Roy and Belfour

Irrelevant imo. He beat out Roy in '98. Best on best tournament but Im sure there will be excuses.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Irrelevant imo. He beat out Roy in '98. Best on best tournament but Im sure there will be excuses.

How on Earth is a tournament that happened in 1998 (where the difference between Hasek and Roy was a single goal in the shootout) relevant for pre-1993 Hasek?

 

[Theokritos]

Irrelevant imo. He beat out Roy in '98. Best on best tournament but Im sure there will be excuses.

You're aware we're arguing about Hašek pre-1994 here?

 

[quoipourquoi]

The real debate was and is: How good was Hašek in the early days? Vezina-level? NHL-level? Sub-NHL-level?

I say NHL-level but not Vezina-level (though that would greatly depend on his GP and Win totals, which were more emphasized in the era than save percentage). I don't believe that he missed out on his prime - as was the allegation.

 

[Hobnobs]

How on Earth is a tournament that happened in 1998 (where the difference between Hasek and Roy was a single goal in the shootout) relevant for pre-1993 Hasek?

Why are we focusing on pre-93 Hasek? How is that relevant? He was the best goalie in some tournaments sure but we cant say if he would have been the best goalie in the NHL at all. When he did show up in the NHL he was better than Roy ever were though. Yes, you can dangle those four cups all you want, I doubt he would have won them with Buffalo.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Why are we focusing on pre-93 Hasek? How is that relevant? He was the best goalie in some tournaments sure but we cant say if he would have been the best goalie in the NHL at all. When he did show up in the NHL he was better than Roy ever were though. Yes, you can dangle those four cups all you want, I doubt he would have won them with Buffalo.

In the regular season, which has never been a point of contention in the first place.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Why are we focusing on pre-93 Hasek? How is that relevant? He was the best goalie in some tournaments sure but we cant say if he would have been the best goalie in the NHL at all. When he did show up in the NHL he was better than Roy ever were though. Yes, you can dangle those four cups all you want, I doubt he would have won them with Buffalo.

This would be a better conversation if you had read the conversation in this thread before posting, but quickly:

1) Roy's save percentages over his peers were almost as high in the regular seasons in the late 80s/early 90s as Haseks' in the mid 90s. Roy has the better playoff performances both by "the eye test" and save percentage vs peers. That is the case for Roy. The case for Hasek is obviously his (mostly regular season) stretch from 1994-1999.

2) The claim was made that Hasek was robbed of prime years by not being born in Canada. The merits of this claim are now being discussed.

 

[Theokritos]

I say NHL-level but not Vezina-level (though that would greatly depend on his GP and Win totals, which were more emphasized in the era than save percentage). I don't believe that he missed out on his prime - as was the allegation.

Fine, I wasn't the one arguing he missed out on his prime and I don't have an issue with what you say here. But if you believe he was on NHL-level, then the Blackhawks were wrong to send him to the Minors anyway and you can't use that move as an argument against Hašek but only against the Blackhawks.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Look, I didn't say self-discipline doesn't matter for a goaltender, it's understood it does. All I said is that it's possible Hašek was frustrated and demotivated to a degree in 1991-1992. It's a possible explanation why he stopped being outstanding in the IHL, nothing more, nothing less. No need to instigate a debate about self-discipline in hockey now. The real debate was and is: How good was Hašek in the early days? Vezina-level? NHL-level? Sub-NHL-level?

here's an article from october 1990 that provides some context.

Even after watching Belfour hold off the New York Rangers 4-3 Thursday night, Rich Winter insisted the Hawks` chances to win a Stanley Cup aren`t as good if Hasek isn`t brought back from the minors in Indianapolis and soon installed as No. 1.

``Their odds to win the Cup will increase if Dominik is in goal,`` contended Winter, who also handles the business affairs of Hawks defenseman Frantisek Kucera. ``He`ll be back as the No. 1 goalie by the end of the year.``

Winter didn`t tag on ``or else`` to the end of that statement. But he suggested Hasek isn`t willing to wait forever in the minors, and doesn`t even understand why he`s there now.

``Dominik just told me yesterday, `I`m as good as Ron Hextall and Grant Fuhr. They (the Hawks) just don`t know it yet.` He`s a winner and it`s a matter of time before they realize it,`` Winter said.

Winter met Friday at the Stadium with Hawks coach and general manager Mike Keenan and senior vice president Bob Pulford. There were no threats issued, Winter said, but he wanted to clarify some issues.

``There have always been teams who have looked at getting his rights,``

Winter said diplomatically. ``I wouldn`t be surprised if a team like Toronto would be looking at Dominik.

``But there`s been no discussion of leaving the Chicago organization. Dominik is just disappointed. If he`d have had a bad training camp, he could have easily handled going to the minors.

``But if he wasn`t the best in preseason, he was one of the best. So he`s confused he`s not here.``

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...50826_1_hasek-isn-t-dominik-hasek-rich-winter


i would just add that it's important to remember who's speaking here. that's not just hasek's agent, whose job it is to stick up for him. it's rich winter, who had advised yashin's holdouts in ottawa and most recently got cody hodgson traded from the canucks because he wasn't getting enough icetime over former MVP henrik sedin and selke winner ryan kesler.

in terms of discipline, patience, and paying one's dues, it's actually kind of amazing that hasek stuck around in the IHL for those two seasons instead of going back to europe or holding out for a trade, considering what winter was probably saying in his ear.


another article, re: chicago goaltending in the early 90s:

And yet, when training camp opened for the 1990-91 season, there were seven goalies fighting for a spot with the Blackhawks.

Despite the organization favoring Jimmy Waite and another young goalie, Dominik Hašek, making a strong impression, Belfour won the starting job. The 1990-91 campaign turned in by Belfour remains one of the most epic rookie seasons in the history of the NHL.

http://committedindians.com/ed-belfour-in-hockey-hall-of-fame-to-announce-class-of-2011/


hard to say hasek didn't get a fair shot right away (despite what rich winter said), when another goalie ed belfour was able to get the job that was ear-marked for jimmy waite.

 

[Theokritos]

here's an article from october 1990 that provides some context...

Thank you very much!

in terms of discipline, patience, and paying one's dues, it's actually kind of amazing that hasek stuck around in the IHL for those two seasons instead of going back to europe or holding out for a trade, considering what winter was probably saying in his ear.

More probability to the suspicion that he was frustrated and his decline in the second IHL year has nothing to do with him not being good enough: he was simply fed up with the Minors.

hard to say hasek didn't get a fair shot right away (despite what rich winter said), when another goalie ed belfour was able to get the job that was ear-marked for jimmy waite.

Well, with one goaltender using a crazy style with an apparent lack of technics and the other playing a more conventional style, it's not too surprising they would consider the second goalie the safer bet, provided both of them look like they've got a knack for stopping pucks, which obviously was the case with Hašek and Belfour. Not saying it was unfair, but still it led to a situation where a legit NHL goalie had to play in the Minors. What definitely would be unfair is to use this circumstance as an argument against Hašek.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Thank you very much!



More probability to the suspicion that he was frustrated and his decline in the second IHL year has nothing to do with him not being good enough: he was simply fed up with the Minors.



Well, with one goaltender using a crazy style with an apparent lack of technics and the other playing a more conventional style, it's not too surprising they would consider the second goalie the safer bet, provided both of them look like they've got a knack for stopping pucks, which obviously was the case with Hašek and Belfour. Not saying it was unfair, but still it led to a situation where a legit NHL goalie had to play in the Minors. What definitely would be unfair is to use this circumstance as an argument against Hašek.

Hasek also did not speak a lick of English when he came over.

 

[Canadiens1958]

1991-92

Both Hasek and Waite rode the shuttle, backing up Ed Belfour. Neither impressed that much in Chicago:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/CHI/1992.html

Both were moved to other teams within two seasons.

 

[toob]

How many of those players were added after the first round, therefore having no chance at awards for the whole tournament?

That aside, this appears to be Hasek's Canadian competition for the best goalie award:

1987: Sean Burke, Bob Froese, Pat Riggin
1989: Sean Burke, Grant Fuhr*, Peter Sidorkiewicz
1990: Bob Essena, Kirk Maclean, Ken Wregget

*Added after the 7 game first round loss to Gretzky's Kings, I'm sure

A far cry from prime Roy and Belfour

The point isnt about who would compete against him for the best goalie award the point was what kind of competition in general he was getting as compared to statements like this:

The World Championships? Rick Nash looks like an elite scorer in those games (44 points in 34 games). I understand you don't have a lot to go off of, but it's a deceptive tournament because of the impact the NHL playoffs have on it. And I'm not using Hasek's IHL years to "define him." I'm using them to remind you that there was a break in-between the accolades in Europe and the success in North America that shouldn't have existed had Hasek been as good as he was from 1994-1999 prior to 1994.

This is a very good point. Only the true bottom of the barrel NHl players were playing in the WCs at the time, so who exactly was Hasek's competition?

Again i will pose my question again what makes the World Championship teams any worse than some of NHL teams especially before the early 90s when there werent many eastern Europeans?

Also regarding the competition the goalies that Roy had his sv% margins over are those that you listed and not early Hasek whereas Hasek posted his sv% margins over Roy among others.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The point isnt about who would compete against him for the best goalie award the point was what kind of competition in general he was getting as compared to statements like this:





Again i will pose my question again what makes the World Championship teams any worse than some of NHL teams especially before the early 90s when there werent many eastern Europeans?

Countries like Poland and West Germany were definitely worse than the worst NHL teams.

I'm just not sure why this is relevant. Goalies from the really bad NHL teams weren't really threats for the Vezina.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

All legitime points, but in the Izvestia Golden Stick voting his competition was better. Again, I don't have the data available, but I seem to remember Hašek repeatedly finishing pretty high. Unfortunately, only results of the years 1981-1984 are to be found on HFBoards. In 1984, Hašek was in third place, right behind Fetisov and Tretiak and in front of Makarov and Krutov. Good enough competition? I believe he has similiar results in 1986-1989.

I'll try to dig up the data, but when I last tried, the website we had been using didn't exist anymore

To play Devil's advocate, the Izvestia Golden Stick voting might show that Hasek stood out compared to other European goalies, but what does that mean? For the same reason, I question Tretiak's Soviet league MVP awards over Makarov or Fetisov - considering the Soviet Union was never a hot bed for goalies in general, maybe Tretiak just looked that good compared to every other goalie.

 

[toob]

All right it seems that you are talking about the quality of goalies in the WC than in general in which case youre prolly right (i dont know much about those old goalies all i know from the 90s is that we had the big 3 and i think Belfour should have been part of the big 4 but for class discrimination against billionaires).

However then we have to look at the competition that Roy faced in the late 80s when he was the best goalie which did not include Hasek (who may or may not have been good competition) as compared to Hasek's competition which included Roy.

 

[quoipourquoi]

However then we have to look at the competition that Roy faced in the late 80s when he was the best goalie which did not include Hasek (who may or may not have been good competition) as compared to Hasek's competition which included Roy.

You're looking at marquee names rather than the level of play they were bringing. Patrick Roy's prime ended before Hasek was even a starter. There's this obsession to compare Hasek from 1994-1999 to Roy from 1994-1999 when people should be comparing Hasek from 1994-1999 to Roy from 1988-1992 (you know, the five season stretch of four 1st place and one 2nd place finishes in save percentage, three 1st Team and two 2nd Team All-Star selections) because that's when they were at their respective bests.

Not a whole lot separates their five-year peaks when given proper context:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=22842607&postcount=2

 

[quoipourquoi]

Fine, I wasn't the one arguing he missed out on his prime and I don't have an issue with what you say here. But if you believe he was on NHL-level, then the Blackhawks were wrong to send him to the Minors anyway and you can't use that move as an argument against Hašek but only against the Blackhawks.

I wouldn't use his demotion against him (which was because he was behind one of the two best goalies in the world). I'm using it and his subsequent level of play to demonstrate that he hadn't hit his prime (often attributed to "adjusting," which I don't really buy when it comes to goaltenders), and therefore the preceding performances in Europe were not on the level of Vezina goaltending.

 

[toob]

You're looking at marquee names rather than the level of play they were bringing. Patrick Roy's prime ended before Hasek was even a starter. There's this obsession to compare Hasek from 1994-1999 to Roy from 1994-1999 when people should be comparing Hasek from 1994-1999 to Roy from 1988-1992 (you know, the five season stretch of four 1st place and one 2nd place finishes in save percentage, three 1st Team and two 2nd Team All-Star selections) because that's when they were at their respective bests.

Not a whole lot separates their five-year peaks when given proper context:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=22842607&postcount=2

Nope just pointing out who Hasek was beating. If Hasek was beating a top form Roy those years then there wouldnt be much more to say would there?

What needs to be considered is that Roy has gotten props for his longevity while Hasek's has been questioned. However if Roy mid 90s was just at the level of goalies he was routinely beating out in the late 80s then the longevity argument seems to disappear (Hasek doesnt have to be the best goalie in the world pre 94) and if he was better than that then Hasek was simply beating better competition by the same margins in sv%.

I was operating under the assumption that Roy in the mid 90s was still better than the top competition in the late 80s which i think is a fair one but...

 

[quoipourquoi]

What needs to be considered is that Roy has gotten props for his longevity while Hasek's has been questioned.

I don't recall a single person in this thread questioning Hasek's longevity.

 

[toob]

There have been quite a few posts intimating that Roy has had the better career (not in terms of playoffs included either) whereas Hasek has had the better peak and im assuming a lot of these have to do with Hasek's shorter NHL career.

What is your view on the matter? Was Roy in the mid 90s onward a better goalie than the closest competition to him in the late 80s or was he at their level or below? From then we can discuss Hasek's play during Roy's peak and Roy's play during Hasek's peak more completely.