Dominik Hasek greatest goalie ever?

[Killion]

Translated into the language of hockey, this means Hasek had an ability to make the shooter shoot or deke where Hasek wanted him to shoot or deke.

....precisely.

 

[tombombadil]

Game 7 of 1991.

great clip. this is why i like coming on here. Thanks for the info and clip. Great call by the ref, that was an obvious desperation shove by Moog.

 

[Plante]

Not sure what your point is here. Usually the winning goaltender is the one who has outplayed the opposing side goaltender. Even if it's just one goal difference. That is hockey. 29-25 shots on goal is pretty damn close meaning the game could have gone either way. So what? Thanks to great goaltending on both sides it went to shootout. And Canada had pretty damn good team in '98.

Hasek was the king of shootouts. Hasek won over Roy in the shootout. I was not that surprised that Hasek won the shootout back in '98

Which means jack squat. Shootouts aren't hockey. Its something you do at the end of practice. His point was that a shootout doesn't decide anything, and with their two previous records, if it went to OT it was probably Roys game to lose. You know, if they played some more hockey.

 

[Killion]

You know, if they played some more hockey.

... sadly, just a matter of time before that particular abominations introduction & institution that it would be used like a yardstick. Its a wonder they dont use day-glo pucks in the SO, just to make sure everyone knows whats what....

 

[Rhiessan71]

This is fantastic. Usually, people just keep arguing their view, from constantly changing angles, if need be. I love when someone is man enough, and patient enough, to actually rethink their opinion. That's what these boards should be - educational.

I've already chimed in on this thread, i think, but for my two cents - Hasek is #1. Save%, Harts, and Vezinas (the kind that are individual), those are the numbers that matter. Roy and Thomas are the only other goalies, in my time, that i've visibly seen destroy shooters mentally, Roy, obviously having a bigger career between those two.

I think one thing that I love about Hasek that doesn't get mentioned is that he was only 5'11. We know nowadays, that these 6'4 butterfly machines are going to be stopping the puck upwards of .920, and a couple will get over .930 every year. Dom's statistical reign will end... but he was nearly an 80's sized goalie!

Ummmm...depending on which site you go to, Hasek and Roy were BOTH about 6'1". Sites have both of them listed anywhere from 6'0" to 6'2" but 6'1" for each is the most common.

 

[Killion]

Ummmm...depending on which site you go to, Hasek and Roy were BOTH about 6'1". Sites have both of them listed anywhere from 6'0" to 6'2" but 6'1" for each is the most common.

... whats the diff?. Since 20yrs ago "size matters"?. What about the likes of Roger Crozier?. 5' 6". Telekinetic. A frikin maskless acrobat Rhiessan?. Where were you?. Hung up on Cooper GP59XXXL's?. A Palmateer "Cheater", oversized jersey & a sheet of 4X8 as a Chest Protector back in 83?!!!.... wimp.

 

[Rhiessan71]

... whats the diff?. Since 20yrs ago "size matters"?. What about the likes of Roger Crozier?. 5' 6". Telekinetic. A frikin maskless acrobat Rhiessan?. Where were you?. Hung up on Cooper GP59XXXL's?. A Palmateer "Cheater", oversized jersey & a sheet of 4X8 as a Chest Protector back in 83?!!!.... wimp.

Dude, I had some sweet Cooper stuff back in '83

Seriously though, the conversation was mainly about Hasek and Roy.
I was just pointing out that not only was Hasek not as small as was being said but he and Roy were also about the same size.

Also, that Roy's best performance, statistically speaking in relation to his peers Conn Smythe wise was '86, while wearing the old "tiny" equipment.

 

[quoipourquoi]

... sadly, just a matter of time before that particular abominations introduction & institution that it would be used like a yardstick. Its a wonder they dont use day-glo pucks in the SO, just to make sure everyone knows whats what....

Hey, I welcome the return of the glow puck. The only thing better would be the addition of Pro Beach Hockey's two-point arc.

 

[Rhiessan71]

My blocker had a completely black face where the holes were and my glove had a black cheater and the big piece on the back where it said Cooper was also black.
I was one proud 13 year old my friend

 

[Rhiessan71]

Here we go, pretty damned close to the gloves I had.

 

[Killion]

Here we go, pretty damned close to the gloves I had.

Cooper GM12's?. Great gloves.... Id hazard to guess you likely outgrew those pads huh?. 3 strappers. Always hated the break-in period with the new ones.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Cooper GM12's?. Great gloves.... Id hazard to guess you likely outgrew those pads huh?. 3 strappers. Always hated the break-in period with the new ones.

Old goalies kabitzing.

Remember Dryden's book, "The Game", bus drives by the front of Boston Garden and there's a guy passed out with a bottle in his hand propped up against the building and Guy Lapointe says, "Retired Goalie".

 

[Plante]

Here we go, pretty damned close to the gloves I had.

I want to say 'you poor old guys' for playing goal in the 80's, but I started in 91' and my pads looked awfully similar

 

[Sorge Georos]

I just don't know about the Conn Smythe argument. Look at the 1993-94 Buffalo vs. New Jersey series.

Without context it looks like a simple first round exit, but upon further inspection Hasek had a save % of .950! One can only go so far and say the best goalie wins no matter what, but you can't win 0-0.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/boxscores/199404270BUF.html

Look at this game. It took his team about double the length of a normal game to score and in the meantime he stopped all 70 shots. Regardless of how you rank the 92-93 Canadiens relative to the 93-94 Sabres, Roy got goal support that Hasek could only dream of once the playoffs began.

It's not the goaltender's job to outduel the other, but to put his team in the best position to win.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I just don't know about the Conn Smythe argument. Look at the 1993-94 Buffalo vs. New Jersey series.

Without context it looks like a simple first round exit, but upon further inspection Hasek had a save % of .950! One can only go so far and say the best goalie wins no matter what, but you can't win 0-0.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/boxscores/199404270BUF.html

Look at this game. It took his team about double the length of a normal game to score and in the meantime he stopped all 70 shots.

It's not the goaltender's job to outduel the other, but to put his team in the best position to win.

You got me thinking of the best goalie performances while losing in the first round. The highest save percentage I found was .952 by Marty Turco in 2007. Did NJ undercount shots as far back as 1994? If so, Hasek's number might be more impressive (since 4 games were in NJ).

 

[GuineaPig]

You got me thinking of the best goalie performances while losing in the first round. The highest save percentage I found was .952 by Marty Turco in 2007. Did NJ undercount shots as far back as 1994? If so, Hasek's number might be more impressive (since 4 games were in NJ).

I've argued before that Hasek in the '94 playoffs was the best goaltending in a losing effort, but there might be one from the '80s or before I simply don't know about.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I just don't know about the Conn Smythe argument. Look at the 1993-94 Buffalo vs. New Jersey series.

Without context it looks like a simple first round exit, but upon further inspection Hasek had a save % of .950! One can only go so far and say the best goalie wins no matter what, but you can't win 0-0.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/boxscores/199404270BUF.html

Look at this game. It took his team about double the length of a normal game to score and in the meantime he stopped all 70 shots. Regardless of how you rank the 92-93 Canadiens relative to the 93-94 Sabres, Roy got goal support that Hasek could only dream of once the playoffs began.

It's not the goaltender's job to outduel the other, but to put his team in the best position to win.

Hasek could only dream of 2.76 and 3.02 goal support - the two lowest goals-per-game of any champion between 1967 expansion and the 1997 Dead Puck Era? Of course Buffalo struggled to score goals; they were shooting on Martin Brodeur. All of this talk about Hasek's 1994 playoffs and simply no talk of his 1995 playoffs...


I've said it before: Other goalies have had better save percentages in single series. Are we holding it against Roy because he had a .974 in a series in which he won?

 

[quoipourquoi]

I've argued before that Hasek in the '94 playoffs was the best goaltending in a losing effort, but there might be one from the '80s or before I simply don't know about.

Mike Liut had a .945 against Montreal in 1986. The league average save percentage was .874 compared to .895.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Normie Smith

I've argued before that Hasek in the '94 playoffs was the best goaltending in a losing effort, but there might be one from the '80s or before I simply don't know about.

Dominik Hasek's 1994 playoff performance lacks context. Normie Smith in 1936 had a better run in games 1 and 2 against the Maroons string together almost 12 shutout periods:

http://redwingslegends.blogspot.ca/2008/04/normie-smith.html

In a losing effort - rather interesting qualifier. Looking at the series as a whole shows that Hasek was below regular season norms for the first five games. .924 SV% vs a .930 SV% during the regular season.

Game 6 was the overtime 1-0 win and game 7 was the 2-1 loss despite stopping 44 of 46 shots. Effectively the two final games dictate perception.

 

[GuineaPig]

Mike Liut had a .945 against Montreal in 1986. The league average save percentage was .874 compared to .895.

Wow. Only two OT periods, as well.

 

[Sorge Georos]

Hasek could only dream of 2.76 and 3.02 goal support - the two lowest goals-per-game of any champion between 1967 expansion and the 1997 Dead Puck Era?

Emphasis placed on "champion." Roy was exceptional but still needed SOME goal support to win the finals. If Hasek had that measly goal support against the Devils they would have won that series

Of course Buffalo struggled to score goals; they were shooting on Martin Brodeur. All of this talk about Hasek's 1994 playoffs and simply no talk of his 1995 playoffs...

Circumstances that were beyond Hasek's control. What great goaltender did Roy meet in the prior year? Plain and simple it is irrelevant to a goalie's individual performance yet the Conn Smythe argument disregards that. How about this:

During that series Hasek faced 261 shots while Brodeur faced just 194. Buffalo's skaters stunk during that series, plain and simple.

Regarding the 95 playoffs, there is no denying that it was a bad playoff for Hasek. But it was also an anomaly.

I've said it before: Other goalies have had better save percentages in single series. Are we holding it against Roy because he had a .974 in a series in which he won?

No. But in his Conn Smythe years he also happened to have better goal support than Hasek would receive for the better part of his playoff career. Not saying Hasek is the better goalie all time, just referring to the Conn Smythe argument.

 

[Sorge Georos]

Dominik Hasek's 1994 playoff performance lacks context. Normie Smith in 1936 had a better run in games 1 and 2 against the Maroons string together almost 12 shutout periods:

http://redwingslegends.blogspot.ca/2008/04/normie-smith.html

In a losing effort - rather interesting qualifier. Looking at the series as a whole shows that Hasek was below regular season norms for the first five games. .924 SV% vs a .930 SV% during the regular season.

Game 6 was the overtime 1-0 win and game 7 was the 2-1 loss despite stopping 44 of 46 shots. Effectively the two final games dictate perception.

Game 6 was such an exceptional performance that I don't weight it equally. Isn't that how save percentage and other average stats work?

Regardless, Hasek put his time in an optimal position to win in every game but Game 5.

 

[quoipourquoi]

But in his Conn Smythe years he also happened to have better goal support than Hasek would receive for the better part of his playoff career. Not saying Hasek is the better goalie all time, just referring to the Conn Smythe argument.

Hasek got better/equal goal support than the 1986 Canadiens gave Roy in 1998, 1999, 2001, 2002, and 2007 - every run of his that wasn't a first-round knockout with a low sample size (1994, 1995, 2000).

 

[Sorge Georos]

Hasek got better/equal goal support than the 1986 Canadiens gave Roy in 1998, 1999, 2001, 2002, and 2007 - every run of his that wasn't a first-round knockout with a low sample size (1994, 1995, 2000).

You cannot simply erase 1994 due to small sample size. Why? Because when goal support gets so low, it is impossible for the sample size to get any larger.

 

[quoipourquoi]

You cannot simply erase 1994 due to small sample size. Why? Because when goal support gets so low, it is impossible for the sample size to get any larger.

Where did I erase it? Hasek got better goal support than the 1986 Stanley Cup Champions in five of his eight playoffs. 1994 was one of the three he didn't - and it is skewed because we're comparing the Buffalo Sabres to a team that played four rounds against varying levels of competition that aren't the winningest goaltender in NHL history.