Dominik Hasek greatest goalie ever?

[quoipourquoi]

In the 80s during the Cold War, how is a JUnior and World Championship MVP, plus top player in Czechoslovakia, *not* an elite talent? When is it not any time?

When you have to compare them to Guy Hebert of the Peoria Rivermen to make them look special, I suppose.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Did you categorically deny that Hasek was "better" than Fuhr and Puppa as early as '92/93, and support that by providing a record showing Hasek had the best stats of the 3 on that team? That's kinda funny.

I did no such thing, pay attention.
Being slightly better than Fuhr and Puppa does NOT equal being a Vezina candidate or even close to being the best goalie in the world.

THAT was the whole point of that post.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

I did no such thing, pay attention.
Being slightly better than Fuhr and Puppa does NOT equal being a Vezina candidate or even close to being the best goalie in the world.

THAT was the whole point of that post.

Well, at least in one post you've gone from saying "no better" to "slightly better". I consider that progress.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Find me a 1st Team World Junior Championship player with 3 1st Team World Championship selections who was *not* one of the best players in the world at his position.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Find me a 1st Team World Junior Championship player with 3 1st Team World Championship selections who was *not* one of the best players in the world at his position.

Oh, goodie. Hasek has one more World Championship 1st Team than Rick Nash. You sure dodged that bullet...

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Oh, goodie. Hasek has one more World Championship 1st Team than Rick Nash. You sure dodged that bullet...

Rick Nash has a Rocket Richard and is a star in the NHL despite playing for arguably the worst team in the league. How does that imply Hasek, with a better resume, would not be competing for Vezinas (especially at a time when goalie competition was at a low ebb)?

 

[quoipourquoi]

Rick Nash has a Rocket Richard and is a star in the NHL despite playing for arguably the worst team in the league. How does that imply Hasek, with a better resume, would not be competing for Vezinas (especially at a time when goalie competition was at a low ebb)?

Oh, boy. You're really going to talk up Rick Nash as one of the best players in the world at his position just to try to make a point about the value of a tournament that most NHL players (particularly the elite goaltenders) don't go to because they're in the playoffs... wow.

Tommy Salo and FrantiÅ¡ek Kučera were named best at their position in the WC. Twice. Andrei Mezin was called the best goalie at 34. Aleksey Morozov was top forward. Martin Prochazka and David Moravec were MVPs. So were Dennis Endras and Viktor Fasth.

What makes you think that this tournament is indicative of at-the-moment NHL success? Did Jarmo Myllys and Maxim Sokolov tell you that? Did Craig Hartsburg and Jamie Macoun?


Vezina competition was at a low? Then what does that make the World Championship competition? IHL level?

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Oh, boy. You're really going to talk up Rick Nash as one of the best players in the world at his position just to try to make a point about the value of a tournament that most NHL players (particularly the elite goaltenders) don't go to because they're in the playoffs... wow.

Tommy Salo and FrantiÅ¡ek Kučera were named best at their position in the WC. Twice. Andrei Mezin was called the best goalie at 34. Aleksey Morozov was top forward. Martin Prochazka and David Moravec were MVPs. So were Dennis Endras and Viktor Fasth.

What makes you think that this tournament is indicative of at-the-moment NHL success? Did Jarmo Myllys and Maxim Sokolov tell you that? Did Craig Hartsburg and Jamie Macoun?


Vezina competition was at a low? Then what does that make the World Championship competition? IHL level?

Your last point is humorous and a decent one (for a 50 game span), but the fact is the World Championships, while not a best-on-best tournament, is still flush with NHL talent and NHL stars. You're doing fine coming up with one or two time WJC and WC first-team all-stars who did not exactly flourish in the NHL, but far from the 4-time resume Hasek has. That's elite territory - all well before he became a starter in the NHL. It should not be ignored and it helps make up a lot of the career value Roy has over Hasek.

Switch the birthplaces of Roy and Hasek --- can you imagine? Hasek is up there with Lemieux and Roy ends up with zero Vezinas.

 

[Corto]

There is no consensus for Hasek.

Fans who remember the careers of both players are split between Roy and Hasek.

Number crunchers who didn't see them both in their primes and look at raw save percentages with no context all pick Hasek.

It's Hasek.

Especially if you remember hockey is actually played outside of NA, and the question is who is the greatest goalie of all-time, not who had the greatest NHL career.

Hasek was a monster in Europe before he came over and won the goalie of the year award 5 years running in Czechoslovakia.

 

[Theokritos]

Tommy Salo and FrantiÅ¡ek Kučera were named best at their position in the WC. Twice. Andrei Mezin was called the best goalie at 34. Aleksey Morozov was top forward. Martin Prochazka and David Moravec were MVPs. So were Dennis Endras and Viktor Fasth.

What makes you think that this tournament is indicative of at-the-moment NHL success? Did Jarmo Myllys and Maxim Sokolov tell you that? Did Craig Hartsburg and Jamie Macoun?

Does anybody have the Izvestia Golden Stick Voting data for the late 80s? I seem to remember Hašek was right behind the likes of Fetisov and Makarov. If true, it's not that easy to dismiss his pre-NHL achievements. We're talking neither IHL level competition nor Mezin/Endras/Fasth level then.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

I didn't get into this thread earlier because it was so focused on playoffs... Of course Roy is the better playoff goalie, he has the accomplishments and has dominated with not only great teams but decidedly mediocre ones as well. Hasek in no way can be viewed as a better playoff goalie, though I think if you expand your horizons from his great (but definitely not Roy great) NHL playoffs to also include his Olympics MVP and 3 first Team WC tournament selections, that playoff/tournament gap shortens.

Roy's playoff/tournament decided edge is just not enough to compensate for Hasek's huge lead in the regular season, where the sample size is much larger and ultimately more indicative of individual performances, especially for goalies.

It's not like Hasek was Marcel Dionne - Hasek was a winner and has posted numerous exceptionally strong playoff/tournament runs.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Your last point is humorous and a decent one (for a 50 game span), but the fact is the World Championships, while not a best-on-best tournament, is still flush with NHL talent and NHL stars.

But when Hasek was being named the All-Star, 16 out of 21 NHL teams were making the playoffs...

You're doing fine coming up with one or two time WJC and WC first-team all-stars who did not exactly flourish in the NHL, but far from the 4-time resume Hasek has.

I wasn't even looking at the WJC to be honest. And Hasek is only a two-time WC All-Star: 1987 and 1989. I know Wiki lists 1990 as well, but the source actually doesn't list it as being him - it lists Arturs Irbe.

So, Hasek's company is exactly what I said before: Tommy Salo. Except Tommy Salo actually won the Gatschene (MVP), Norris (goalie), Longman (Rookie), and Turner Cup in the International Hockey League too...

Switch the birthplaces of Roy and Hasek --- can you imagine? Hasek is up there with Lemieux and Roy ends up with zero Vezinas.

I'm unconvinced. Switch the birthplaces and Roy collects two World Championships instead of a Calder/Stanley combo, comes to the league in 1987 during the Canada Cup, and still wins three Vezinas before Hasek peaks.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Does anybody have the Izvestia Golden Stick Voting data for the late 80s? I seem to remember Hašek was right behind the likes of Fetisov and Makarov. If true, it's not that easy to dismiss his pre-NHL achievements. We're talking neither IHL level competition nor Mezin/Endras/Fasth level then.

But it sure makes it easier when he comes to North America and is an IHL goaltender...


EDIT: And just so we're all clear, Hasek played 53 games in the IHL and exactly 53 games for Czechoslovakia in the WCs, Canada Cups, and Olympics that preceded his coming to North America - in case you were worried about sample sizes.

 

[ContrarianGoaltender]

But it sure makes it easier when he comes to North America and is an IHL goaltender...

I'm not really understanding the disparaging of the Hasek's 1990-91 season in the IHL. In context, his numbers look just about as dominating as we might expect Hasek's numbers to look in a sub-NHL league. The key thing to note is that Hasek's playing partner in 1990-91 was Jimmy Waite, the IHL's First Team All-Star Goalie from the previous season (1989-90). Hasek came in and completely outplayed Waite:

Hasek: 20-11-1, 2.52
Waite: 26-18-4, 3.47

Here's the league GAA leaderboard for goalies with 30+ games played:

1. Hasek 33 GP, 2.52
2. Hebert 36 GP, 2.87
3. Guenette 43 GP, 3.26
4. McKichan 30 GP, 3.32
5. Waite 49 GP, 3.47
6. Sharples 37 GP, 3.55
7. Dyck 38 GP, 3.66
8. Beauregard 32 GP, 3.71
9. Weeks 37 GP, 3.78
10. Myllys 38 GP, 3.79
11. Gosselin 46 GP, 3.86
12. Clifford 56 GP, 3.97
13. Goverde 40 GP, 4.10
14. Brower 37 GP, 4.11
15. Chevrier 32 GP, 4.40
16. Flaherty 56 GP, 4.49

Hasek is lapping the field with the exception of Hebert. However, Hebert played on a Peoria team that led the league in scoring and goals against and finished first in the standings by a wide margin. Hebert's backups during the regular season combined for a 3.29 GAA (and an impressive win/loss record of 34-9-4), meaning that Hasek's GAA edge over backups was over twice as large as Hebert's. In the playoffs Indianapolis was eliminated in the first round without Hasek (who was in Chicago). Peoria won the IHL championship with a goalie platoon of Hebert and Pat Jablonski, with Jablonski actually playing in more games during the run, making it even more obvious which goalie was actually doing the most to drive his team's results.

The IHL scoring average that year was 3.92 goals per game. That means that Hasek's GAA was 64% of league average, 0.35 ahead of the top goalie on the stacked best team in the league and 0.74 ahead of everyone else, including nearly a full goal per game better than his teammate who had been voted the best goalie in the league the previous season. I don't see how that can be interpreted as anything other than a goalie who was way too good for the league.

Hasek was the best goalie in the IHL and ended the season in the NHL as the backup in Chicago during the playoffs, stopping 121 of 132 shots in the regular season and playoffs combined at the NHL level (.917). Given all that together with the fact that Ed Belfour won the 1991 Vezina Trophy, I think that's about all that could be reasonably expected for Hasek's first professional season in North America.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

But when Hasek was being named the All-Star, 16 out of 21 NHL teams were making the playoffs...

Still NHL talent and stars. Rosters make that more than apparent.

I wasn't even looking at the WJC to be honest. And Hasek is only a two-time WC All-Star: 1987 and 1989. I know Wiki lists 1990 as well, but the source actually doesn't list it as being him - it lists Arturs Irbe.

I've seen conflicting lists as well. But I think logic points to: Youngest professional hockey player ever + WJC best goalie + WC best goalie(s) = Hasek did not just drop out of a tree with goalie pads on at the age of 29. He was a top goaltender in the world which is further enforced by the extent upon which he dominated the NHL
immediately upon becoming a starter.

I'm unconvinced. Switch the birthplaces and Roy collects two World Championships instead of a Calder/Stanley combo, comes to the league in 1987 during the Canada Cup, and still wins three Vezinas before Hasek peaks.

Lol, or a communist version of Roy refuses to ever play for capitalist pigs... I guess I was figuring more on their NHL careers simply inversed.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Hasek was the best goalie in the IHL and ended the season in the NHL as the backup in Chicago during the playoffs, stopping 121 of 132 shots in the regular season and playoffs combined at the NHL level (.917). Given all that together with the fact that Ed Belfour won the 1991 Vezina Trophy, I think that's about all that could be reasonably expected for Hasek's first professional season in North America.

He's supposed to be. And then he played a second year. You can do that one next.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Hasek did not just drop out of a tree with goalie pads on at the age of 29.

Neither did Tim Thomas, but I'm still not accepting a victory over Guy Hebert in the IHL as proof that he was ready to steal any of Roy and Belfour's Vezinas.

Lol, or a communist version of Roy refuses to ever play for capitalist pigs... I guess I was figuring more on their NHL careers simply inversed.

For some reason, I can see a coach humiliating him, causing him to defect to a different country.

 

[ContrarianGoaltender]

He's supposed to be. And then he played a second year. You can do that one next.

No problem.

Hasek: 7-10-3, 3.56
Waite: 4-7-1, 4.53

What a shock, Hasek's numbers went down on a non-playoff team with a team GAA over 4.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

But it sure makes it easier when he comes to North America and is an IHL goaltender...


EDIT: And just so we're all clear, Hasek played 53 games in the IHL and exactly 53 games for Czechoslovakia in the WCs, Canada Cups, and Olympics that preceded his coming to North America - in case you were worried about sample sizes.

And Roy's playoff career equals 3 regular seasons. Besides, Hasek has records still standing from one of those IHL years... Especially given the above post I'm not so sure it should be so strongly used against him. The argument for Roy over Hasek should not be centered on Hasek's IHL years.

 

[quoipourquoi]

No problem.

Hasek: 7-10-3, 3.56
Waite: 4-7-1, 4.53

What a shock, Hasek's numbers went down on a non-playoff team with a team GAA over 4.

I love how you always compare goalies to their backups. All backups are the same, right?

I'm glad we know definitively that Hasek was better than Waite. It's a relief. The allegation, however, is that he'd be good enough to win Roy's Vezina in 1991-92. Since you had no trouble listing all of the IHL goaltenders by their GAA in 1991 without context (like, for instance, not pointing out that Waite was a top five goalie, in contrast to how you're talking about how bad their numbers are on a worse team), perhaps you'd like to try it again with 1992.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Neither did Tim Thomas, but I'm still not accepting a victory over Guy Hebert in the IHL as proof that he was ready to steal any of Roy and Belfour's Vezinas.



For some reason, I can see a coach humiliating him, causing him to defect to a different country.

Definitely fair to question Roy's hypothetical socialist adherence

Tim Thomas has nothing like the Pre-NHL resume Hasek has.

 

[quoipourquoi]

And Roy's playoff career equals 3 regular seasons. Besides, Hasek has records still standing from one of those IHL years... Especially given the above post I'm not so sure it should be so strongly used against him. The argument for Roy over Hasek should not be centered on Hasek's IHL years.

I think you're missing my point about how you're granting Hasek an excessive amount of good will from 53 international games (only 10 of which were best-on-best) that preceded 53 North American IHL games that preceded an NHL career. You say that he was "down" in the IHL - hence why we're comparing him to Guy Hebert and not, say, Ed Belfour and Patrick Roy - but you're not making allowance for the opposite internationally in the same amount of games played.

I think neither makes much of a dent - good or bad.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Tim Thomas has nothing like the Pre-NHL resume Hasek has.

But he is proof that it's not out of the question for a goaltender, no matter what his age, to somewhat suddenly become the best. And that's my point - it's possible (and in my opinion, probable) that Hasek wouldn't have had an impact in the Vezina races prior to - at the earliest - 1992-93, because he hadn't gotten to that level as early in life as Patrick Roy did.

 

[ContrarianGoaltender]

I love how you always compare goalies to their backups. All backups are the same, right?

No, all backups are not the same. But it's a massive improvement on concluding that bad GAA = bad goalie. And again, Hasek was the only guy with a backup who was a First Team All-Star the prior year.

I'm glad we know definitively that Hasek was better than Waite. It's a relief.

We may consider that to be extremely obvious now, but the Chicago Blackhawks didn't know it in 1992. I'm sure they had access to those IHL numbers, plus the 1991-92 NHL stats (Hasek 10-4-1, 2.60, .893 vs. Waite 4-7-4, 3.69, .844), and yet they still traded Hasek for Beauregarde and made Waite their backup. Just reinforces again the point that, despite what you want to claim about goalies playing their way into or earning their position, if your team doesn't know anything about goaltending you're still pretty much sunk.

The allegation, however, is that he'd be good enough to win Roy's Vezina in 1991-92. Since you had no trouble listing all of the IHL goaltenders by their GAA in 1991 without context (like, for instance, not pointing out that Waite was a top five goalie, in contrast to how you're talking about how bad their numbers are on a worse team), perhaps you'd like to try it again with 1992.

I put a 5 next to Waite's name on the list that I provided you, how is that not pointing out that he is a top five goalie? He was in fact a top five goalie, and Hasek still beat him by 0.95 in GAA.

HockeyDB doesn't have detailed goalie stats for the 1992 season and I'm not aware of any other place where they are readily available, so we are unfortunately limited in our ability to hyperanalyze the two months that Hasek was mistakenly sent to the IHL that season by an organization that despite all evidence thought he wasn't as good as Jimmy Waite.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

I think you're missing my point about how you're granting Hasek an excessive amount of good will from 53 international games (only 10 of which were best-on-best) that preceded 53 North American IHL games that preceded an NHL career. You say that he was "down" in the IHL - hence why we're comparing him to Guy Hebert and not, say, Ed Belfour and Patrick Roy - but you're not making allowance for the opposite internationally in the same amount of games played.

I think neither makes much of a dent - good or bad.

It's 53 international games of which he earned by being his country's best player numerous times (and Czechoslovakia was a top hockey country at the time, competitive with any country but Canada), and in those condensed tournament games he played great, just as Roy performed great in his condensed playoff games. Not as significant, but still significant. Hasek's name came up a lot during the 80s. He makes a list of the top 5 non-NHL players during that time, IMO, and that's an impressive list.