Value of: Could Toronto acquire one of the following dman?

[Liferleafer]

Lol- I'm not generalizing and lumping you all together, simply pointing out that you're wrong, there was a leaf fan asking for the price of top 2 defensemen, in fact it's the entire point of this thread we're currently posting in, as I illustrated. I don't know why i'm arguing with you all though, it's like trying to spit on a forest fire of ignorance.

So, there was "A" Leafs fan that made the OP, and you are not lumping us all together, but i am ignorant because somehow i am the same as the OP? This site is ****ing awesome.

 

[93gilmour93]

JVR + connor brown = garbage compared to the dmen you're asking for lol

I haven't asked for any d man in this thread. I was curious on opinions of who we can get for the package I through out though.

On a side note people when you see JVR in an offer let's assume he's resigned before a trade because no team would move one of these d man otherwise for him

 

[Liferleafer]

You think this mainly because you really don’t know much about Trouba or how good a player he is. All else being equal the Jets don’t eve pick up the phone unless Matthews is in the deal. A collection of lesser pieces not only does nothing to help get the Jets towards a cup it puts them farther away.

Other players in the OP for whom this is also true
Parayko
Ellis
Ekholm
Giordano

It doesn’t matter whether this is “fair value†from Leafs perspective, that’s what it would take from the other team’s perspective to get that player. If this isn’t something that interests, you as a Leaf fan that’s fine. Finding something that works for BOTH sides of a trade is really hard, this is why so few trades happen. As others have suggested, however, if you don’t like being told the price the solution isn’t to complain about the price the solution is to stop asking.

Looking at the Leaf forwards, here are what I expect are some more minimum prices you should expect to hear for players in the OP

Players that would require Marner (or Matthews)
Manson
Stralman
Tanev
Hamilton
Faulk

Players that would require Nylander (or Marner/Matthews)
Montour
Vatanen
Brodin
Dumba
Hanifan

Players that may not require Nylander/Marner/Matthews (no guarantees)
Bouwmeester
Seabrook
Pesce

Sidenote on JVR value. He’s now in rental territory. At the deadline he’s worth a late first and something like a 3rd round pick/B level prospect. He’s worth less than that now, because of how the cap works for trades at the deadline and because teams don’t trade for rentals until they know where they stand.

This list is beyond hilarious....but the funniest thing? Seabrook "may not" require Nylander/Marner/Matthews....

 

[93gilmour93]

This list is beyond hilarious....but the funniest thing? Seabrook "may not" require Nylander/Marner/Matthews....

It's 50/50

 

[Liferleafer]

It's 50/50

No guarantees doncha know!

 

[CupsOverCash]

Funny JVR has never returned what Leaf fans want. So why keep putting him in trade proposals? Oh yea they think GMs will give up one of their best players for this bum.

 

[Morgs]

Funny JVR has never returned what Leaf fans want. So why keep putting him in trade proposals? Oh yea they think GMs will give up one of their best players for this bum.

Did you think of this yourself?

Or did you just copy and paste it from one of the other 1000 JVR threads?

I have to know.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Manson now requires Marner to be traded and Vats requires Nylander... That is so laughable. Manson has to be the most overrated player in the league by a large margin. The guy is a #4 and won't ever be a top pairing defender...

 

[Volica]

Manson now requires Marner to be traded. That is so laughable. He has to be the most overrated player in the league by a large margin. The guy is a #4 and won't ever be a too pairing defender...

I don't know if he'd cost Marner, but he'd cost a lot.
Anaheim just spent Theodore (who, FYI, would be Toronto's top prospect) to protect Vatanen/Manson. The cost of acquiring him would probably be along the lines of 1st +.

 

[BB6]

You think this mainly because you really donÂ’t know much about Trouba or how good a player he is. All else being equal the Jets donÂ’t eve pick up the phone unless Matthews is in the deal. A collection of lesser pieces not only does nothing to help get the Jets towards a cup it puts them farther away.

Other players in the OP for whom this is also true
Parayko
Ellis
Ekholm
Giordano

It doesn’t matter whether this is “fair value” from Leafs perspective, that’s what it would take from the other team’s perspective to get that player. If this isn’t something that interests, you as a Leaf fan that’s fine. Finding something that works for BOTH sides of a trade is really hard, this is why so few trades happen. As others have suggested, however, if you don’t like being told the price the solution isn’t to complain about the price the solution is to stop asking.

Looking at the Leaf forwards, here are what I expect are some more minimum prices you should expect to hear for players in the OP

Players that would require Marner (or Matthews)
Manson
Stralman
Tanev
Hamilton
Faulk

Players that would require Nylander (or Marner/Matthews)
Montour
Vatanen
Brodin
Dumba
Hanifan

Players that may not require Nylander/Marner/Matthews (no guarantees)
Bouwmeester
Seabrook
Pesce

Sidenote on JVR value. HeÂ’s now in rental territory. At the deadline heÂ’s worth a late first and something like a 3rd round pick/B level prospect. HeÂ’s worth less than that now, because of how the cap works for trades at the deadline and because teams donÂ’t trade for rentals until they know where they stand.

I'm a little out of the loop but let's say Nylander has the least value out of the 3 for the leafs, I would argue most of those dman aren't worth him, I would also add that for a few of the remaining where you could argue for Nylander, they would require an add from the team giving up the defenceman and I feel that the leafs could make a package not involving Nylander at all to get it done with less than a handful of the players listed actually requiring the least valuable of Nylander/Marner/Matthews.

Your valuation of Bouwmeester and Seabrook made me think you were joking entirely and I love Tanev but Marner? I wish.

 

[Flameshomer]

I don't know if he'd cost Marner, but he'd cost a lot.
Anaheim just spent Theodore (who, FYI, would be Toronto's top prospect) to protect Vatanen/Manson. The cost of acquiring him would probably be along the lines of 1st +.

You misunderstood- Leafs fans know better than all league GMs what the value of players around the league is!! They are also way more equipped than both the media and the players in deciding what players are better than others.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

I don't know if he'd cost Marner, but he'd cost a lot.
Anaheim just spent Theodore (who, FYI, would be Toronto's top prospect) to protect Vatanen/Manson. The cost of acquiring him would probably be along the lines of 1st +.

Theodore is a propesct who hasn't really proven himself in the NHL and is about to turn 22. Marner just had a 60 point rookie season as a teenager, they aren't in the same realm of value.

 

[93gilmour93]

You misunderstood- Leafs fans know better than all league GMs what the value of players around the league is!! They are also way more equipped than both the media and the players in deciding what players are better than others.

So when were you a GM?

 

[Mugzy97]

Funny JVR has never returned what Leaf fans want.

I guess we'll know when he actually gets traded.

I don't know if he'd cost Marner, but he'd cost a lot.
Anaheim just spent Theodore (who, FYI, would be Toronto's top prospect) to protect Vatanen/Manson. The cost of acquiring him would probably be along the lines of 1st +.

And what do you expect the cost of acquiring JVR would be?

 

[DougGilmour93]

I think Bouwmeester would be attainable for the assets I mentioned, just not sure if St.Louis would feel comfortable giving him up.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Well alrighty....Hamonic just cost the Flames a late 1st and a couple of 2nds...correct? It's fair to call Hamonic a top 4D correct? Some would say he would be top 2D in Toronto...correct? So, by your standards we would have to pay Nylander at a minimum for Hamonic? Why did calgary not pay the premium for Hamonic that you are saying we dummies don't understand that it would cost us? As far as the "personal attacks", so far you've called me ignorant and a dummy, is that how these internet board thingys work?

Leafs have to pay the HF tax and lose every deal on these boards lol.

 

[BleedBlue14]

I think Bouwmeester would be attainable for the assets I mentioned, just not sure if St.Louis would feel comfortable giving him up.

More of a can our prospects take on 25+ minutes a night at this point in time. Only asset that I feel is intriguing for STL would be Bozak. Even then it would be a question of whether or not Bozak would be an upgrade to our offense (don't take this as I don't see him as a good 2C more of just a fit for Yeo and what he's trying to do or not) or if he isn't would it be worth it to even risk getting rid of one of our top 4.

We are a playoff/contending team at the moment our window is open and we just had a "retool" year last year, not sure if we want to push back another year. Seems like more of a deadline deal/injury filler. By the way JBO is LHD

 

[lomiller1]

Just for the record I do watch jets games and I'm fully aware of trouba. That being said I don't agree with most of your values in this post but that's all good. You mainly think this because you don't know much about marner or nylander

The size and volume of the Toronto hockey media makes it virtually impossible for other fan bases not to know WAY more about Leaf players than Leaf fans do about any other team in the NHL. My list may not be perfect, but I’d be shocked if I wasn’t in the ball park on what other fan bases would say has to come back for the player Leaf fans are asking them to give up.

 

[glucker]

You think this mainly because you really don’t know much about Trouba or how good a player he is. All else being equal the Jets don’t eve pick up the phone unless Matthews is in the deal. A collection of lesser pieces not only does nothing to help get the Jets towards a cup it puts them farther away.

Other players in the OP for whom this is also true
Parayko
Ellis
Ekholm
Giordano

It doesn’t matter whether this is “fair value†from Leafs perspective, that’s what it would take from the other team’s perspective to get that player. If this isn’t something that interests, you as a Leaf fan that’s fine. Finding something that works for BOTH sides of a trade is really hard, this is why so few trades happen. As others have suggested, however, if you don’t like being told the price the solution isn’t to complain about the price the solution is to stop asking.

Looking at the Leaf forwards, here are what I expect are some more minimum prices you should expect to hear for players in the OP

Players that would require Marner (or Matthews)
Manson
Stralman
Tanev
Hamilton
Faulk

Players that would require Nylander (or Marner/Matthews)
Montour
Vatanen
Brodin
Dumba
Hanifan

Players that may not require Nylander/Marner/Matthews (no guarantees)
Bouwmeester
Seabrook
Pesce

Sidenote on JVR value. He’s now in rental territory. At the deadline he’s worth a late first and something like a 3rd round pick/B level prospect. He’s worth less than that now, because of how the cap works for trades at the deadline and because teams don’t trade for rentals until they know where they stand.

The fact that at this point you have Nylander as a tier below Marner is a pretty good indicator of how little you know about the Leafs players involved.

 

[93gilmour93]

The size and volume of the Toronto hockey media makes it virtually impossible for other fan bases not to know WAY more about Leaf players than Leaf fans do about any other team in the NHL. My list may not be perfect, but I’d be shocked if I wasn’t in the ball park on what other fan bases would say has to come back for the player Leaf fans are asking them to give up.

The center ice package is great for knowing what's going on in the other markets. You watch the games and listen to the thoughts of those covering the teams. You always have Homer thoughts and mentality in every market so a person tries to make a descion based on that. Not sure why being a leafs fan means you just pay attention to the leafs. 90% of the tv I watch is nhl hockey and the leafs don't play every night so I see a ton of hockey

 

[lomiller1]

I don't know if he'd cost Marner, but he'd cost a lot.
Anaheim just spent Theodore (who, FYI, would be Toronto's top prospect) to protect Vatanen/Manson. The cost of acquiring him would probably be along the lines of 1st +.

More than that because at the end of the day what the Ducks and their fans want isn’t “value†it’s to make their team better. Manson is a key player for them, and one they can’t readily replace. They are not going to punch a hole in their lineup just to acquire draft picks, they need someone who improves them more than the loss of Manson costs them, and seriously limits the available options.

 

[Sojourn]

Theodore is a propesct who hasn't really proven himself in the NHL and is about to turn 22. Marner just had a 60 point rookie season as a teenager, they aren't in the same realm of value.

Theodore is still a very good prospect, and the fact Anaheim was willing to give him up to protect Manson should give you an idea of how the Ducks value Manson. What you don't seem to understand is that you wouldn't be trading for Theodore. You'd be trading for Manson.

He's not available. Neither is Montour.

Vatanen might be available, but Murray may want to keep the blue line together for this upcoming season. I won't speak for other fans, but I certainly hope that's the case. I'd be very happy to see Vatanen on the Ducks this season.

More than that because at the end of the day what the Ducks and their fans want isn’t “value” it’s to make their team better. Manson is a key player for them, and one they can’t readily replace. They are not going to punch a hole in their lineup just to acquire draft picks, they need someone who improves them more than the loss of Manson costs them, and seriously limits the available options.

Thank you. I wish more people understood this. You aren't asking Anaheim to get fair value for Manson, or Montour, or whomever you want. You're asking them to subtract a player who they feel is important to their team, at a time they are trying to go deep into the playoffs. It isn't in their best interest to help another team fill a hole on their team by creating a hole on their team.

 

[CupsOverCash]

Did you think of this yourself?

Or did you just copy and paste it from one of the other 1000 JVR threads?

I have to know.

Doesn't matter. The point still stands. JVR isn't returning any of the good players you want. Start offering something good.

 

[lomiller1]

I'm a little out of the loop but let's say Nylander has the least value out of the 3 for the leafs, I would argue most of those dman aren't worth him

Value from who’s perspective? The question in the OP isn’t what Leaf fans are willing to give up for a player it’s what fans of the teams those players are on would ask in return.
Any of the D-men on that list leave a massive hole in their team’s roster. No one is going to do that without something outstanding coming back. It likely that the hole the Leafs would fill wouldn’t be as big as the one they would create. This is why hockey trades don’t happen very often.

Your valuation of…

This isn’t “my valuation†but may assessment of what these fan bases are likely to want. My teams needs and priorities are different so I don’t expect my valuation to match their value to anyone else.

I love Tanev but Marner? I wish.

He’s one of the best defensive defenceman in the NHL. I actually have him in the 10ish range for best defensive D-men but the way these things generally work Canucks fans will have him higher and would price him accordingly. Maybe they’d consider something with Nylander though, I already said above that I don’t assume my assessment of what these other fan bases would want is perfect.

 

[embracedbias]

Easy:

Tyler Seguin
81 29 38 67

48 16 16 32 (Lockout)

Then traded to Dallas.

Here's another one that Leafs fans should be familiar with (guess the player from the stat line!)

70 36 24 60

Then traded to the leafs


Neither are directly following the rookie season (however, in both cases it was their d+2 year like marner) but both were on ELCs and produced at a high clip. It's Kessel by the way.

Seguin was traded for attitude reasons and Kessel because Boston couldn't fit him under the cap (and, anyway, he got a good return).

Not comparable.