Value of: Could Toronto acquire one of the following dman?

[embracedbias]

Leafs are gonna have to try and make a deal like our pro Gm Chiarelli had to do for Larsson. Fans are gonna hate it but it's gonna take balls to fix the leafs if they want to compete for the cup any time soon.

Chiarelli is an idiot. But, anyway, the Oilers were in a very different position with Hall than the Leafs are with JVR (or anyone else). The Hall trade is more similar to the Kessel (to Pens) trade. The Leafs didn't get great value for him, but they needed to change the identity of the team.

JVR fits in fine, it's just that we have wing depth and could use defensive help. The Leafs have a fine alternative option if the right trade isn't on the table: Wait at least until the deadline to see where the team is. If the team isn't looking like a contender, sell JVR and Bozak to the highest bidder. If the team is looking like a contender but needs defensive help, find a trade for a rental d-man (and probably lose JVR/Bozak to free agency).

 

[TeddyBare]

Montour - Yes
Manson - No
Vatanen - Yes
Hamilton - No
Giordano - No
Hanifan - not without one of 3
Faulk - Not without one of 3
Pesce - Yes
Seabrook - LOL probably for Free
Brodin - Yes
Dumba - Yes
Ellis - No
Ekholm - No
Bouwmeester - Yes
Parayko - Can't afford
Stralman - No
Tanev - Yes
Trouba - Can't afford

 

[liquiduck]

Chiarelli is an idiot. But, anyway, the Oilers were in a very different position with Hall than the Leafs are with JVR (or anyone else). The Hall trade is more similar to the Kessel (to Pens) trade. The Leafs didn't get great value for him, but they needed to change the identity of the team.

JVR fits in fine, it's just that we have wing depth and could use defensive help. The Leafs have a fine alternative option if the right trade isn't on the table: Wait at least until the deadline to see where the team is. If the team isn't looking like a contender, sell JVR and Bozak to the highest bidder. If the team is looking like a contender but needs defensive help, find a trade for a rental d-man (and probably lose JVR/Bozak to free agency).

It's a pretty similar situation. Both teams need/needed a top 4 defensemen badly.
Eberle( JVR) wasn't going to cut it. They had to move Hall.

Your alternative is viable, but in that scenario not only are you losing JVR/Bozak for nothing and whatever it cost for a rental defensemen, you also would just have the same issue the next season.

 

[Majorityof1]

I think Bouwmeester would be attainable for the assets I mentioned, just not sure if St.Louis would feel comfortable giving him up.

As a Blues fan, I do not think a deal is possible. You definitely have the assets to make a fair, and even a generous offer for JBo. However, we are in win now mode and it would leave a big hole on our defense. We are very young on the left side after Bouwmeester. Putting either Petro or Parayko on the left severely hampers their effectiveness. Edmundson could step up some. He could potentially be a lower-tier top pairing guy if he hits the absolute max of his potential, but he's solidly lower-end middle pairing right now. We have 2 great LHD prospects, but they may not even be ready for the NHL, much less significant minutes. Gunnarsson has regressed significantly since you traded him to us and is a 6/7 D now. I am not comfortable with him playing every day, much less taking big minutes. So unless you are giving us something we can absolutely not say no to, or there is another deal in place for a replacement, we can't trade Bouwmeester right now.

We can totally revisit at the trade deadline or the mid-point in the season. If none of Schenn/Fabbri/Barbashev has solidified a top 6 C role, and if Dunn and Edmundson are progressing well, I'd definitely consider something around Bouwmeester for Bozak (or Kadri if possible). But for now, we have options to try to fill that 2C, and no options to replace 1LD.

 

[WhatTheDuck]

Montour - Yes
Manson - No
Vatanen - Yes
Hamilton - No
Giordano - No
Hanifan - not without one of 3
Faulk - Not without one of 3
Pesce - Yes
Seabrook - LOL probably for Free
Brodin - Yes
Dumba - Yes
Ellis - No
Ekholm - No
Bouwmeester - Yes
Parayko - Can't afford
Stralman - No
Tanev - Yes
Trouba - Can't afford

I don't know what keeps giving people the idea that Montour would be remotely available but every indication would say he is not.

 

[Liferleafer]

It's a pretty similar situation. Both teams need/needed a top 4 defensemen badly.
Eberle( JVR) wasn't going to cut it. They had to move Hall.

Your alternative is viable, but in that scenario not only are you losing JVR/Bozak for nothing and whatever it cost for a rental defensemen, you also would just have the same issue the next season.

While both have knocks, you can't compare Eberle to JVR. JVR only having 1 year left lowers his value but we can retain half of his 4.25....but he is a 60 point forward. Eberle is signed for 2 more years at 6 million, and hasn't exactly set the world on fire...he was basically cap dumped.

Now, that's not me saying we will land a top 4D for JVR, but i think the return will be better than Eberle's return.

 

[Liferleafer]

I don't know what keeps giving people the idea that Montour would be remotely available but every indication would say he is not.

I think the only D Anahiem MAY move is Vatanen.

 

[liquiduck]

While both have knocks, you can't compare Eberle to JVR. JVR only having 1 year left lowers his value but we can retain half of his 4.25....but he is a 60 point forward. Eberle is signed for 2 more years at 6 million, and hasn't exactly set the world on fire...he was basically cap dumped.

Now, that's not me saying we will land a top 4D for JVR, but i think the return will be better than Eberle's return.

In terms of production, there isn't much seperating Eberle and JVR over the last 4 years. In fact, Eberle has been the slightly more productive player. Eberle's relatively low value around the league has to do with two things. 1) he doesn't drive the play, and 2) His salary. One dimensional wingers who don't drive the play aren't valued very high, especially when they make 6+ million.

That's basically going to be JVR after this season. If Toronto wants a long term solution to their top 4 through a trade, JVR isn't going to cut it.

edit: I guess I shouldn't say it won't cut it, as if it's some kind of certainty. But based on recent precedent, I'd be very very surprised. To clarify, this is for an extended JVR. A non- extended JVR is just a rental, and when is the last time a rental returned a top 4 defensemen with term? Or rather a top4 defensemen period.

 

[WhatTheDuck]

I think the only D Anahiem MAY move is Vatanen.

Especially with the injuries to Lindholm and Vatanen to start the year. If it's not Vats getting dealt than I'd bet our blueline is remaining intact this off season.

 

[Digitalbooya]

Montour - Yes
Manson - No
Vatanen - Yes
Hamilton - No
Giordano - No
Hanifan - not without one of 3
Faulk - Not without one of 3
Pesce - Yes
Seabrook - LOL probably for Free
Brodin - Yes
Dumba - Yes
Ellis - No
Ekholm - No
Bouwmeester - Yes
Parayko - Can't afford
Stralman - No
Tanev - Yes
Trouba - Can't afford

Do explain for Brodin/Dumba.

 

[MNRube]

Do explain for Brodin/Dumba.

Incoming JVR+ offers. Would have to be one of big 3 or Reilly coming back

 

[Volica]

And what do you expect the cost of acquiring JVR would be?

A late first or 2nd + mid prospect at the deadline?

 

[Digitalbooya]

Incoming JVR+ offers. Would have to be one of big 3 or Reilly coming back

We can repeat it and repeat it. Some things will never change.

 

[JonnyCanuck604]

We traded JVR?? What did we get in return??

Obviously, I meant to roll with what you had JVR is the one who will get bumped down according to what I've read from leaf fans. If you read my post further did I not mention he will be A diminished asset now? should have kept things the same and spent the money on what you really needed defence. All this talk about Reilly and Zaitsev -22 -20 thank god for gardiner. getting Patrick was A stupid move and the trickle-down effect will be felt. You guys had no problems scoring goals. But when your supposed best d is a - 20 with only 4 goals and 27 points While rookie in Troy Stecher had 24 points and was A - 16 on the 2nd worst team. Reilly A guy with so much talent. it screams stay at home defenceman. Now that would have had A positive trickle down effect. Getting A guy like Tanev. Would made Morgan A true top pairing d. Now because of Patrick 2 wingers are gonna drop down a line No way he isnt on the top line. Babs loves that other guy keep forgetting his name, Hyman? I dunno A team 5th in goals 22nd in goals against. and you bring in another goal scorer.

My original point was why mess with the chemistry you had? While not addressing your biggest need? Reilly should have put up a lot more than 27 points Tanev averages 20 points A season While being A plus player lat year on the 2nd worst team. A guy like him should have been your target. While showcasing JVR Now your gonna have A diminished asset if you move him at the deadline. I like JVR and would keep him around for the whole season, but not sure if that's the case if he's gonna be stuck on the 3rd line. keep him top 6 showcase and if someone blows you away if he's having A really good season pull the trigger. I dunno Don't claim to be A leaf fan but I just gave 2 glaring examples of why you should have A aquirerd A true top 4 guy. Even if you overpay. I'd rather give up 2 firsts for tanev (I'm using the hamonic deal as a comparable. Tanev is better) Maybe we add A 3rd or something I hate the Oilers and they lost the Hall trade but at least they improved their D. Plus Marlie is 37and screws up the lines you had last year. Just my opinion Cheers

 

[IceBoxHockey]

Brodin - Yes
Dumba - Yes

Both of these should be a no.

But out of curiosity, what would be your offer for either?

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Theodore is still a very good prospect, and the fact Anaheim was willing to give him up to protect Manson should give you an idea of how the Ducks value Manson. What you don't seem to understand is that you wouldn't be trading for Theodore. You'd be trading for Manson.

He's not available. Neither is Montour.

Vatanen might be available, but Murray may want to keep the blue line together for this upcoming season. I won't speak for other fans, but I certainly hope that's the case. I'd be very happy to see Vatanen on the Ducks this season.



Thank you. I wish more people understood this. You aren't asking Anaheim to get fair value for Manson, or Montour, or whomever you want. You're asking them to subtract a player who they feel is important to their team, at a time they are trying to go deep into the playoffs. It isn't in their best interest to help another team fill a hole on their team by creating a hole on their team.

I realise that the only Ducks defender who is available to some degree is Vats.. the poster I was replying to said the Ducks paid Theodore to keep Manson and as a result Manson would be worth Marner. This kind of paints an equivalency in value between Theodore and Marner.

All I was saying is that Marner and Theodore are not even in the same ballpark valuewise. I think he is a good prospect too though he didn't have the greatest playoffs.

 

[Sojourn]

I realise that the only Ducks defender who is available to some degree is Vats.. the poster I was replying to said the Ducks paid Theodore to keep Manson and as a result Manson would be worth Marner. This kind of paints an equivalency in value between Theodore and Marner.

All I was saying is that Marner and Theodore are not even in the same ballpark valuewise. I think he is a good prospect too though he didn't have the greatest playoffs.

That's fair. I didn't read it as an implied equivalency, but you're right that Theodore is definitely not equivalent.

I don't think Manson is available, and I think Murray would be perfectly happy keeping Vatanen on the team this upcoming season.

 

[Novacain]

I sometimes wonder if people grasp the difference between a trade were the value of everything lines up and a trade were both teams actually get something they want.

Basically, think of it this way: The Blues are a team that are clearly trying to win now. They also have a surprisingly good prospect pool, that has strong forwards, left handed defensemen, and goalies. What we don't have as a team are primarily 1. No.1 Center and 2. Right Handed Defensemen Depth. After you get past our Top 2, our RHD depth is Bortuzzo (who has reached his maximum upside of 3rd pairing defensemen) and Schmaltz (Who had a good but not otherworldly so career in college and is basically completely unproven in the NHL)

So, basically, you can't give us just equal value for Parayko and call it a day. You have to give us something good enough and helps us win enough that it actively offsets the decrease from a really really good 2nd pairing guy that is probably more a 1st pairing defender stuck behind an elite, to a guy who is completely unproven as an NHLer who would be forced to take up second pairing minutes. And we are not a better team swapping Parayko for Marner or Nylander, full stop. And we don't need additional pieces on top of it, we need one thing. It's not a question of value, it's a question of "Does it help us win"

As for Bouwmeester if you have interest, let us get a chance to see what Dunn and Walman can do for a few months.

 

[A1LeafNation]

bozak for green

 

[Mugzy97]

The cost of acquiring him (Manson) would probably be along the lines of 1st +.

And what do you expect the cost of acquiring JVR would be?

A late first or 2nd + mid prospect at the deadline?

So.. a 1st +?

 

[DougGilmour93]

JVR (w extension)
Bracco
Carrick

For

Faulk

 

[hagelin1381]

I'm sure they could.. Doubt you'd wanna hear the asking price though

 

[Liferleafer]

No teams are looking to deal top 4D. I think the next couple of offseasons will mirror this one....we will sign short term Hainsey types, and see what we have in our D prospects.

 

[Hunter368]

No teams are looking to deal top 4D. I think the next couple of offseasons will mirror this one....we will sign short term Hainsey types, and see what we have in our D prospects.

Agreed

IMHO leafs should not part with any of the three, which drive the majority of their offence. Get by on non sexy bridge pieces that they can make do with like Hainsey and see how your prospects develop. If a good hockey deal pops up then you might reconsider your position but don't try to force deal b/c you will end up losing too much. Show patience.....as the Jets shown/know Cup contenders aren't built in 3 years, it takes time.

 

[Creepingjeff]

How about Holden and a 2nd for JVR? Holden put up 34 points last, which was good enough for 45th overall among defenseman. He is not a top pairing guy, but he is fine on the middle pair. His contract is great this year as well, which would help with Toronto's cap.