Cogliano v Oshie

[Spectacular_Bid]

Ive watched Cogliano all year and I must say that he is our best forward behind Hensick. Cogs has 23 goals this season and leads the team. Is that a lack of finish? Oshie had 24 his freshman year, but now has 12, at least Cogs is progressing as the years pass. He had 6 points last weekend, and him and Hensik stole the show the entire game. The scary thing is that if he had linemates that could score his numbers would be ridiculous. He plays with Chris Summers who is a defenceman, and Chad Kolarik who is a perimeter player that has 16 goals this year. The important thing is that Kolarik has taken 150 shots, were Cogliano has only taken shots ranging in the 80's. He is also on the 2nd pp and has a short stint with the 1st unit. Im sure if Cogliano played with Toews and Duncan his point totals would be unlimited. He has 47 points in 35 games, nothing to complain about. It's not his offense that needs work but just he just needs to realize that to be more effective you must stop and start on the puck. Cogs is doing great, and he will continue to

I like Cogliano but he wasn't Michigan's second best forward. Kevin Porter was argueably Michigan's best forward (better all around game than Hensick) Cogliano may end up being the better player but Porter outplayed him this year.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Thats fine but the point was a valid one & Blues Fan response was too predictable.

And your point is ...... ? Spectacular_Bid tried to dismiss Oshie's hat trick out of hand as just being a product of "weak goals", I pointed out that no one cares about "weak goals" in the stats, and I never mentioned the empty-net goal. At all.

FWIW - I've seen nearly every top NHL player bank one in off a goalie like Oshie did. I'd hardly call it weak, and I'd hardly dismiss his ability because of it - instead, I'd look at it as "having the hockey sense to think about making that play in the first place." Every player is going to score weak (cheap, lousy, garbage - whatever word you'd like to use) goals. The ones that intend to do it are the ones who usually rise to the top.

But hey ... if you want to call it "just another weak goal", fine. There's 30 NHL coaches who'll take that goal when they can get it.

 

[nags]

An average skater in NCAA is a brutal sakater in the NHL. As well, I've seen all kind's of kids with a decent/good head for the game & with a good work ethic that couldnt do it in the show cause their skating just wasnt there. The minors are full of them.
Just wanted to say the converse is true, & Stempniak is by far the exception than the rule.

I've also seen some amazing skaters in the AHL that couldn't make it to the show. In fact, I'm willing to bet that the fastest skater in pro hockey in North America is not playing in the NHL.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

I've also seen some amazing skaters in the AHL that couldn't make it to the show. In fact, I'm willing to bet that the fastest skater in pro hockey in North America is not playing in the NHL.

Yeah, Rico Fata comes to mind. One thing I'm puzzled by though is the notion that Oshie is a "poor" skater. He's no burner, but is quick, agile, and hard to knock off the puck. That's a good skater IMO. He's no where near as fast as Cogliano, but few are.

 

[Sammy*]

And your point is ...... ? Spectacular_Bid tried to dismiss Oshie's hat trick out of hand as just being a product of "weak goals", I pointed out that no one cares about "weak goals" in the stats, and I never mentioned the empty-net goal. At all.

FWIW - I've seen nearly every top NHL player bank one in off a goalie like Oshie did. I'd hardly call it weak, and I'd hardly dismiss his ability because of it - instead, I'd look at it as "having the hockey sense to think about making that play in the first place." Every player is going to score weak (cheap, lousy, garbage - whatever word you'd like to use) goals. The ones that intend to do it are the ones who usually rise to the top.

But hey ... if you want to call it "just another weak goal", fine. There's 30 NHL coaches who'll take that goal when they can get it.

The point was kinda obvious but I'll spell it out for you. Does a kid getting 3 brutal goals cause a goalie a brutal mean the kid is a goal scorer or a goalie had a bad day? Conversly, whats more impressive, an empty netter or a kid showing real skill to get a goal?
I'm not saying Oshies goals were good, bad or indifferent but in the witers mind they were bad goals, hence did not have alot of probative value.

 

[Sammy*]

I've also seen some amazing skaters in the AHL that couldn't make it to the show. In fact, I'm willing to bet that the fastest skater in pro hockey in North America is not playing in the NHL.

You'll get no argument here.

 

[oil slick]

I'm sure Cogs has benifitted from a few crappy goaltenders as well... it probably all evens out. Seems like people are wanting to rank these two, but they are pretty different players, and each bring something to the table...

 

[Ted Hoffman]

The point was kinda obvious but I'll spell it out for you. Does a kid getting 3 brutal goals cause a goalie a brutal mean the kid is a goal scorer or a goalie had a bad day? Conversly, whats more impressive, an empty netter or a kid showing real skill to get a goal?

So hockey smarts to bank one in off a goalie isn't impressive? Gee, I'll tell Gretzky his goal off of Liut back around 1982 wasn't that impressive either.

It doesn't matter if Michigan's goalie was the cause of 2 of the 3 goals - it still takes a shooter to to take advantage of it. Few players would have ever thought of trying to use the goalie to puck a put in the net in the first place, give Oshie credit for having the hockey sense to do so. The other one more of a fluke, but c'mon - the fact is, Oshie carried ND through that game and had two huge goals to swing momentum to the Sioux. If you want to blandly dismiss it, fine - but don't dismiss it as if 3/4 of all hockey players could have made those shots. 3/4 of them would have never tried either to begin with.

As oil slick said ... I'm sure Cogliano got a few goals from crappy goalies this year too - but I'm not about to go start dissecting every goal he's scored this year to see how many were weak and how many were quality. It doesn't matter in the stats, they all count the same. Besides, those 2 goals are not the reason Oshie will probably be a very good NHL'er ... so if you want to ignore them, fine. He brings a whole lot more to the table than 2 "brutal" goals against Michigan.

 

[Sammy*]

So hockey smarts to bank one in off a goalie isn't impressive? Gee, I'll tell Gretzky his goal off of Liut back around 1982 wasn't that impressive either.

It doesn't matter if Michigan's goalie was the cause of 2 of the 3 goals - it still takes a shooter to to take advantage of it. Few players would have ever thought of trying to use the goalie to puck a put in the net in the first place, give Oshie credit for having the hockey sense to do so. The other one more of a fluke, but c'mon - the fact is, Oshie carried ND through that game and had two huge goals to swing momentum to the Sioux. If you want to blandly dismiss it, fine - but don't dismiss it as if 3/4 of all hockey players could have made those shots. 3/4 of them would have never tried either to begin with.

As oil slick said ... I'm sure Cogliano got a few goals from crappy goalies this year too - but I'm not about to go start dissecting every goal he's scored this year to see how many were weak and how many were quality. It doesn't matter in the stats, they all count the same. Besides, those 2 goals are not the reason Oshie will probably be a very good NHL'er ... so if you want to ignore them, fine. He brings a whole lot more to the table than 2 "brutal" goals against Michigan.

I didnt ignore his goals, I didnt see them. If in fact they were bad goals, the guys point was valid. You didnt like his point cause ,, ta da, you are a Blues fan. You can dispute whether they were good goals, or bad goals, but if in fact they were bad goals (which is a matter of opinion) , his point has merit. Conversly , if they were good goals (again a matter of opinion) that is useful for assesing Oshies goal scoring ability.
You didnt take issue with the whether they were good goals or bad goals, you seemed to be of the view that "bad" goals or even empty netters are as useful in assessing a player as "good" goals.
Is an empty netter or a goal a guy gets from banking it off accidentally another player the samew as wiring it top shelf from the top of the circle, in terms of evaluating a player ?
Thought so.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I didnt ignore his goals, I didnt see them. If in fact they were bad goals, the guys point was valid. You didnt like his point cause ,, ta da, you are a Blues fan. You can dispute whether they were good goals, or bad goals, but if in fact they were bad goals (which is a matter of opinion) , his point has merit. Conversly , if they were good goals (again a matter of opinion) that is useful for assesing Oshies goal scoring ability.
You didnt take issue with the whether they were good goals or bad goals, you seemed to be of the view that "bad" goals or even empty netters are as useful in assessing a player as "good" goals.
Is an empty netter or a goal a guy gets from banking it off accidentally another player the samew as wiring it top shelf from the top of the circle, in terms of evaluating a player ?
Thought so.

1. The fact that I'm a Blues fan doesn't enter into this; I've made similar comments in threads about other players who are part of other teams many times in the past, and if the comment had been about Cogliano I would have said exactly the same thing.
2. You missed my original point, which was that even if Oshie's hat trick was the weakest hat trick ever, it still goes into the records as a hat trick and won't carry an asterisk saying, "but it was a really weak one." That was the point I was making before you started worrying about everything else.
3. I have no idea where you got the idea that I think "bad" goals are useful in assessing a player, but hey - it's your thought process, I'm not going to worry myself about it. The point I was actually making was that while a fan may see a goal as "bad", a coach or scout may have an entirely different view of it and see it as a sign of what the kid can do; a player may put a shot over the goalie's right shoulder and one side will see it as a fantastic shot from a guy who picked his spot, while the other side will see it as a weak goal b/c it would have simply hit the shoulder of a goalie in proper position - and is either side wrong? So labeling goals as "good" or "bad" is entirely subjective to begin with, and taking someone's comment that "it was a bad goal" doesn't automatically mean it was.
4. I'm not even going to bother with your hypothetical, "which goal is better at evaluating a player?" question - I've spent enough time discussing the first 3 points, and frankly I really don't care what you have to say about it, because you've made up your mind on the whole thing to begin with.

 

[oil slick]

As oil slick said ... I'm sure Cogliano got a few goals from crappy goalies this year too - but I'm not about to go start dissecting every goal he's scored this year to see how many were weak and how many were quality. It doesn't matter in the stats, they all count the same. Besides, those 2 goals are not the reason Oshie will probably be a very good NHL'er ... so if you want to ignore them, fine. He brings a whole lot more to the table than 2 "brutal" goals against Michigan.

To play both sides of the fense though... I don't think that having a single hat trick game in college says much about a players potential as an NHL'er... seems a little weird for that original poster to try to bring up a single game as an example of why Oshie will be a better NHL'er than Cogs.

 

[MN_Gopher]

Then you can jump back to the other side of the fence. It was a weak hat trick. Empty netter and poor goal tending. But, after the first shot in that game it was clear the boards were giving huge rebounds. So does Oshie go way low or stand by the net waiting for that big bounce back. Lucky goal or smart play? Who do you want on the ice when yopu are protecting a lead and the opoosing team pulls their goalie. Your best players. His other goal. You score 0 goals and shots you never take. Gretzky and Lemiuex probally have the most weak hat tricks and goals of all time. But they are not considered lucky. They just had an unbeilvable knack for the game. I am not going to say Oshie is that type, and honestly he is not IMO. But you have to create your own luck. Being in the right spot and the right time.

And as for Cogliano. You cannot teach speed. Some guys take longer. He improves by 20 points and takes 26 less PIM. Thats solid improvemnet. He he is doing just fine.

 

[nags]

Then you can jump back to the other side of the fence. It was a weak hat trick. Empty netter and poor goal tending. But, after the first shot in that game it was clear the boards were giving huge rebounds. So does Oshie go way low or stand by the net waiting for that big bounce back. Lucky goal or smart play? Who do you want on the ice when yopu are protecting a lead and the opoosing team pulls their goalie. Your best players. His other goal. You score 0 goals and shots you never take. Gretzky and Lemiuex probally have the most weak hat tricks and goals of all time. But they are not considered lucky. They just had an unbeilvable knack for the game. I am not going to say Oshie is that type, and honestly he is not IMO. But you have to create your own luck. Being in the right spot and the right time.

And as for Cogliano. You cannot teach speed. Some guys take longer. He improves by 20 points and takes 26 less PIM. Thats solid improvemnet. He he is doing just fine.

Wow, a gopher fan who actually pays attention to anyone other than a gopher. Must be the off-season

 

[Traktor*]

Bump

 

[toastman344*]

Not to be verbose ...but...

COGS !!!!!

 

[heygarebear]

Oshie will be in the NHL next season.. I still think Oshie will be a better player down the line.. But what Cogliano has done so far in the NHL.. impressive for sure.

 

[Transported Upstater]

Oshie will be in the NHL next season.. I still think Oshie will be a better player down the line.. But what Cogliano has done so far in the NHL.. impressive for sure.

I still take Oshie as well. One quarter-season from Cogs proves little to me.

 

[ktownhockey]

Cogliano before and after

 

[rawrmachine]

Oshie still.

 

[mmmjays]

Cogliano getting some PK time and PP time and is responsible even strength. I think he's third in Oiler scoring? Oilers offense isn't anything impressive, but Cogs has been fantastic. No signs of him slowing down either.

right now, COGS > Oshie.

 

[Gardebut30]

I wanna say Oshie, but since Cogs is showing some good improvement so far, I pick him.

Hard to pick a guy in the NHL already compared to one who is not.

Oshie will be good though, along with soderberg.

 

[s7ark]

I don't want to be a homer, but Oshie, still? I mean I really like him too, but Cogliano is doing very well 2 leagues above him.

If Oshie is ready to make the jump all the way to the NHL next year, he'll still be a rookie, while Cogs will have a year under his belt.

Right now, and for the next few years Cogs > Oshie. If Oshie can reverse that is a question for later, but there should be little debate that right now, Cogs > Oshie.

And he's showing no signs of slowing down. He gets/creates scoring chances in every game as a rookie playing in the bottom 6. Baring major injury, he's going to be a player.

 

[oil slick]

I still take Oshie as well. One quarter-season from Cogs proves little to me.

Oshie could easily be better than Cogliano, but Cogs looks great out there - I'm not sure how this doesn't prove something. .

I think it's cool that people still pick Oshie (people thought highly of Toews as well - even when some of his peers hit the NHL earlier), but I don't see how Cogs hasn't at least closed the gap for those that still like Oshie - he's certainly parlayed his skills to the NHL so far - which a lot of prospects can't do.

 

[Cerebral]

At the least, the people claiming Cogliano was a speed demond with no hands or hockey sense (I heard Rico Fata Pt. 2 a few times) have to be changing their minds at this point. Cogliano doesn't have the hands to be an elite goal scorer but he reads the ice very well and he is also an extremely good playmaker.

 

[Frenzy31]

At this point, as much as it pains me to say it, Cogs have proven a lot more the Oshie. Cogs is playing in every situation and is a vital part of the Oilers top 6. (I like Sam G better, but...)

(And before Blues fans come in and state that Oshie could have made the team this year - Don't - because he didn't leave school and we have no way of knowing unless you live in an alternative reality).

It will be up to Oshie to have the same impact next year. I hope he becomes better then Cogs and think he will be, but... he hasn't proven he can play in the NHL in a top 6 role and Cogs has. To say anything less would be a lie, IMO.