City of Hamilton backs $100K arena study with eye to NHL

[mouser]

Want to know what they'd do?

Expand the upper portion of the building to meet up with the lower footprint (relatively cheap). That would create space, that is currently void space (a roof) for a second concourse. The footprint is already there for this.

That would allow for putting in luxury suites around the top of the entire lower bowl.

The roof was designed to be raised to accommodate expansion of luxury suites and possibly extra seating.

The lower level of Copps is quite large.....many suites could be built down there. The term escapes me....whatever you call those luxury boxes that you go back to during intermissions or whenever you want.....but aren't facing the arena space. Bunker boxes maybe. Or the lower level luxury suites could be built at a higher cost....or both, which would increase the 'suite' capacity quite a bit with no real major overhaul of the building.

The place was built to be expanded on. There was no point in putting in all the bells and whistles without a tenant. The Palace of Auburn Hills was based on the design of Copps Coliseum. The Palace put in all the bells and whistles they could.....while Copps put in the least. Pretty similar buildings though....Palace has a larger capacity but Copps might have a bigger footprint, not sure. It'd be close.

The Palace of Auburn Hills was something of a game changer as NBA arenas go. Several arenas built before or around the same time were deemed obsolete much earlier then the expected 30+ year lifetime of an arena was when they were built. Miami, Charlotte, Orlando, Dallas, Sacramento, Milwaukee.

In NBA circles, saying an arena could have been the Palace is the same as saying it's obsolete by the current standards. And in all those cases the response was to build a new arena. I'm skeptical that putting $300m into an arena refurb that isn't MSG would make sense for Hamilton.

 

[Buck Aki Berg]

I'm seeing a lot of posts claiming that Copps was built to be expanded, and that the roof is designed to be popped off. Is there anything to substantiate this?

I remember in the months ahead of Winnipeg landing a team, people were adamant that MTSC was built with expansion in mind, and that turned out to be bunk. If very intelligent businessmen didn't have that kind of forward thinking in 2003, I can't imagine that a municipal government would back in 1983 - especially since nobody at the time could have predicted how critically important "bells and whistles" would end up being to a team's bottom line in the 10-20 years to follow.

 

[Rocko604]

If Copps is already in a great location, the renovation route isn't a bad idea, so long as the foundation and structure is in good shape. As was already mentioned Madison Square Garden has been renovated numerous times. BC Place in Vancouver is another example. The entire thing was gutted and re-done.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

I implore you all to research Copps Coliseum and learn how this facility was built to serve the current demand but be designed to meet the future demand.

My bet is $150M of renos makes it a middle of the pack NHL venue.

$100M makes it a newer and nicer Northlands. Which could still go for quite a few years.

You really believe the NHL would award a franchise to a small city with an arena built over 30 years ago while only agreeing to put in just enough to make it "middle of the pack venue"? Seems like wishful thinking.

 

[DyerMaker66*]

You really believe the NHL would award a franchise to a small city with an arena built over 30 years ago while only agreeing to put in just enough to make it "middle of the pack venue"? Seems like wishful thinking.

You think Hamilton is a "small city"?

 

[Dirty Old Man]

You think Hamilton is a "small city"?

Given his name, assuming he's located in Atlanta, do you think he'd consider Charleston, SC or Little Rock, AR a "small city"? Their metro areas (Charleston, Little Rock, and Hamilton) are about the same size.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_census_metropolitan_areas_and_agglomerations_in_Canada

 

[DyerMaker66*]

Given his name, assuming he's located in Atlanta, do you think he'd consider Charleston, SC or Little Rock, AR a "small city"? Their metro areas (Charleston, Little Rock, and Hamilton) are about the same size.

Do you consider Boston, the 10 largest city in the US, to be a "small city"? Do you consider a city within an hour of 5 million people "a small city"?

 

[cheswick]

Do you consider Boston, the 10 largest city in the US, to be a "small city"? Do you consider a city within an hour of 5 million people "a small city"?

What does the relative closeness of 5 million people have to do with the size of a city?

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Do you consider Boston, the 10 largest city in the US, to be a "small city"?

Metro area over 4 million, so "no".

Do you consider a city within an hour of 5 million people "a small city"?

You've just described Casa Grande, Arizona, and - perhaps a little closer to you - Newmarket, Ontario, so "yes".

 

[DyerMaker66*]

What does the relative closeness of 5 million people have to do with the size of a city?

What? If we are in Toronto's and Buffalo's market they must be in ours too, yes?

 

[DyerMaker66*]

Metro area over 4 million, so "no".
You've just described Casa Grande, Arizona, and - perhaps a little closer to you - Newmarket, Ontario, so "yes".

Now you're being disingenuous because you just compared Hamilton to a city 1/10 the size of it, instead of say, Winnipeg which is essentially equal.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Now you're being disingenuous because you just compared Hamilton to a city 1/10 the size of it, instead of say, Winnipeg which is essentially equal.

Hamilton is smaller than Winnipeg by nearly 150,000 people according to 2011 census numbers. That's not really "essentially equal."

 

[DyerMaker66*]

Hamilton is smaller than Winnipeg by nearly 150,000 people according to 2011 census numbers. That's not really "essentially equal."

You're off by 140k

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Largest_Metropolitan_Areas_of_Canada

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Now you're being disingenuous because you just compared Hamilton to a city 1/10 the size of it, instead of say, Winnipeg which is essentially equal.

Okay then, would you consider the following to be small or large cities, in similar situations IMHO as Hamilton?

- Long Beach, CA
- Riverside, CA
- Mesa, AZ
- Arlington, TX
- Santa Ana, CA

Look, I know where you're going with this, and I am somewhat sympathetic to "Hamilton in the NHL... someday", but to someone from Atlanta or Phoenix, Hamilton is a small city. Or not the largest part of a larger one.

 

[93LEAFS]

Okay then, would you consider the following to be small or large cities, in similar situations IMHO as Hamilton?

- Long Beach, CA
- Riverside, CA
- Mesa, AZ
- Arlington, TX
- Santa Ana, CA

Look, I know where you're going with this, and I am somewhat sympathetic to "Hamilton in the NHL... someday", but to someone from Atlanta or Phoenix, Hamilton is a small city. Or not the largest part of a larger one.

All of those are part of major cities, Arlington has arguably the most valuable franchise in sports playing there. I don't think Hamilton will get a team, but it easily has the ability to draw, and could easily go by the name Ontario instead of Hamilton to avoid the appearance of being small time.

 

[garbageteam]

You're off by 140k

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Largest_Metropolitan_Areas_of_Canada

Those numbers are old too. I'd go with Statscan's official 2015 numbers:
http://www5.statcan.gc.ca/cansim/a2...&stByVal=1&p1=1&p2=37&tabMode=dataTable&csid=


Toronto, ON 6,129,934
Montréal, QC 4,060,692
Vancouver, BC 2,504,340
Calgary, AB 1,439,756
Edmonton, AB 1,363,277
Ottawa, ON 1,332,001
Québec, QC 806,359
Winnipeg, MB 793,428
Hamilton, ON 771,703
--
KW Area, ON 511,319
London, ON 506,418
Halifax, NS 417,847
St. Catharines, ON 408,222
Oshawa, ON 388,956
Victoria, BC 365,291
Windsor, ON 335,787
Saskatoon, SK 304,975
Regina, SK 241,422
Sherbrooke, QC 214,485
St. John's, NL 214,285

Hamilton's short of Winnipeg by about 22K. Essentially equal. Hamilton's also in closer proximity to a lot more people than Winnipeg is.

If you look at the population numbers, there's a pretty sharp drop-off after Hamilton to the 500K cities, which I frankly think won't be capable of hosting NHL teams in our lifetimes.

I'm not saying Hamilton should have a team or should be in the discussions, but it's easy to see why some people fantasize beyond QC and think there is a (if extremely remote) 9th (Hamilton) and 10th (GTA2) possibility of a Canadian NHL team in the future. If Winnipeg has one and QC is very likely to have one, why not Hamilton based on population alone?

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I'm not saying Hamilton should have a team or should be in the discussions, but it's easy to see why some people fantasize beyond QC and think there is a (if extremely remote) 9th (Hamilton) and 10th (GTA2) possibility of a Canadian NHL team in the future. If Winnipeg has one and QC is very likely to have one, why not Hamilton based on population alone?

If only it were just population at stake...

 

[GuelphStormer]

my god. didnt coach tell you, size doesnt matter.

hamilton is big enuff to get the job done.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

my god. didnt coach tell you, size doesnt matter.

hamilton is big enuff to get the job done.

...but it's not far enough away from Toronto or Buffalo for those markets' comfort, and it's not far enough west to make it appealing to the BoG in terms of conference alignment.

 

[Major4Boarding]

...but it's not far enough away from Toronto or Buffalo for those markets' comfort, and it's not far enough west to make it appealing to the BoG in terms of conference alignment.

But to be fair TFP, appealing enough for the League to label it as "their" opportunity

 

[Mightygoose]

...but it's not far enough away from Toronto or Buffalo for those markets' comfort, and it's not far enough west to make it appealing to the BoG in terms of conference alignment.

But to be fair TFP, appealing enough for the League to label it as "their" opportunity

Their opportunity for maybe the players with MLSE. Putting Hamilton (or second GTA team) in the western conference creates nice content for Bell or Rogers to battle over..or even divide it up.

They would play the Leafs only twice a season so minimal overlap and perhaps a few opportunities for doubleheaders.

Hamilton's chances IMO are a good 10 years away. At least 3 markets are ahead in the pecking order (SEA, LV and QC), those 3 would either a) need to get teams or b) not be in the running for the foreseeable future.

After that, there needs to be a change in guard at the board level, I think once Jacobs days and the possible protectiveness of Buffalo is over. But that also depends who is the new chairman and where the power shifts.

Then in the mid 2020s or beyond, many arenas are hitting 30 years, leases will come for renewal, out clauses reached etc... only need one to upset the apple cart and viola!

10 year plan

 

[DyerMaker66*]

Okay then, would you consider the following to be small or large cities, in similar situations IMHO as Hamilton?
- Long Beach, CA
- Riverside, CA
- Mesa, AZ
- Arlington, TX
- Santa Ana, CA

Let's be fair, Long Beach is part of a larger city and still has a smaller population than Hamilton. Same with Mesa. Hamilton is actually it's own city.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Let's be fair, Long Beach is part of a larger city and still has a smaller population than Hamilton. Same with Mesa. Hamilton is actually it's own city.

The good people of Long Beach and Mesa would likely beg to differ that they are not their own city.

Is Hamilton the primary city in a metro area of 750K, or a secondary city in a conglomeration of 5M?

 

[Hamilton Tigers]

The good people of Long Beach and Mesa would likely beg to differ that they are not their own city.

Is Hamilton the primary city in a metro area of 750K, or a secondary city in a conglomeration of 5M?

It is both.

 

[Slot]

I'm seeing a lot of posts claiming that Copps was built to be expanded, and that the roof is designed to be popped off. Is there anything to substantiate this?

I remember in the months ahead of Winnipeg landing a team, people were adamant that MTSC was built with expansion in mind, and that turned out to be bunk. If very intelligent businessmen didn't have that kind of forward thinking in 2003, I can't imagine that a municipal government would back in 1983 - especially since nobody at the time could have predicted how critically important "bells and whistles" would end up being to a team's bottom line in the 10-20 years to follow.

Yes it can be expanded to put 200 boxes in.