City of Hamilton backs $100K arena study with eye to NHL

[Hamilton Tigers]

Cool! You can buy your Hamilton Tigers t-shirts here http://www.slingshothockey.com/teams/hamilton-tigers/

 

[Mightygoose]

I doubt the Ti-Cats would have an issue by using the Tigers names. It will some what be the 'Football Tiger (Cats)' and 'Hockey Tigers'

Otherwise, staying with Bulldogs would work too IMO

 

[Dylbot]

Waste of money, if the area gets another team it will closer to Markham.

Oh yeah? Of late, has there been a trend toward or away from arenas in suburban areas?

Hamilton, while near Toronto and a population of 600k, is not a pretty city and would definitrly be the most undesirable city in the NHL, except maybe Columbus, Buffalo, or Raleigh.

As someone who has moved from Toronto to Hamilton, I can tell you that that is an increasingly outdated perception.

 

[DyerMaker66*]

I doubt the Ti-Cats would have an issue by using the Tigers names. It will some what be the 'Football Tiger (Cats)' and 'Hockey Tigers'

Otherwise, staying with Bulldogs would work too IMO

Bulldogs or Lynx ftw.

 

[Jerkini]

The city of Hamilton is transforming. All the people who can't afford to live in Toronto and the surrounding communities are moving there on mass. Houses that used to cost $100,000 a mere 10 years ago are now starting from $250,000. As someone who grew up there and moved away, it's absolutely asinine the price of housing now versus then. In another 10-years, you won't even recognize this city anymore. Things are changing there.

 

[JMROWE]

I do agree if & when Hamilton gets an NHL. team the team should be called the Tigers but probably won't because of the Tiger Cats my choices other than Tigers would be Falcons , Huskies , Lions , Warriors or Raiders & all would use a Black , Gold & Silver colour scheme .

 

[knorthern knight]

I agree they should be called the Tigers, but would the CFL Tigercats fight it?

The New York Jets and the Sacremento Kings say "hello".

 

[PhillyWings]

Bengals just saying

 

[Hamilton Tigers]

Private sector funds $240K arena study

Private sector funds $240K arena study

The second phase of a $240,000 study on updating the aging city-owned FirstOntario Centre is now underway thanks to billionaire Ron Joyce and other private sector funders.

When complete, the study will include costed options for a possible two-phase transformation of the 30-year-old downtown arena.

The first phase could see the lower bowl turned into a state-of-the-art 8,000 or so seat facility.

The second phase could see the entire building upgraded to 21{+s}t-century NHL standards.

Along with Joyce, the Carmen's Group, FirstOntario Credit Union, LIUNA, and Fengate Capital have contributed money to pay for the study, according to Jasper Kujavsky, the consultant and lawyer who's stickhandling the initiative for the city.

Kujavsky declined to say if there are also other unnamed partners participating.

He initially raised $100,000 to review the mechanical, electrical, structural and maintenance systems. He then raised an additional $140,000 to look at modernizing options, the piece now underway.

Kujavsky commissioned Toronto-based Brisbin Brook Beynon Architects (BBB) to do both the short and long-term work.

BBB are internationally recognized experts in sports-related venues. Among other facilities, they designed the Air Canada Centre in Toronto and led renovations at Madison Square Gardens in New York, Calgary's Saddledome, and Edmonton's Rexall Place.

According to Kujavsky, BBB's initial report, which hasn't been released, shows that FirstOntario Centre is in good shape. Certain features and designs elements need refreshing, but overall it has "good bones."

Kujavsky estimates that full transformation into an NHL-ready arena would cost about $300 million. He figures a standalone lower bowl conversion would cost about $100 million.

http://www.thespec.com/opinion-story/6436772-dreschel-private-sector-funds-240k-arena-study/

 

[berklon]

Private sector funds $240K arena study

While I think it'll be a waste of money in the end - it doesn't bother me since it's private money being used.

 

[GuelphStormer]

Private sector funds $240K arena study

you are fast

 

[Major4Boarding]

Kujavsky estimates that full transformation into an NHL-ready arena would cost about $300 million.

Which is what I've been saying all along. $300M is more than halfway to a whole new arena, so why spend it renovating.

The one thing that has crept into my mind of late is the possibility that waiting around to build a new facility may not be in the "timeline". Rather, and not to intentionally stir the pot, there may not be enough "time" to wait 3,4, or 5 yrs for site procurement, planning, approval, and shovels in the ground. I still would turn my nose up to it, and again only because of the expenses involved, but would have a better appreciation on why.

 

[GuelphStormer]

Which is what I've been saying all along. $300M is more than halfway to a whole new arena, so why spend it renovating.

The one thing that has crept into my mind of late is the possibility that waiting around to build a new facility may not be in the "timeline". Rather, and not to intentionally stir the pot, there may not be enough "time" to wait 3,4, or 5 yrs for site procurement, planning, approval, and shovels in the ground. I still would turn my nose up to it, and again only because of the expenses involved, but would have a better appreciation on why.

only one alternative arena site has been seriously considered over the past several years ... the harbourfront shoreline (brownfields), along the north edge of Hamilton. it was in play during the lead-up to the PanAm games with respect to a new stadium but lost out to a rebuild of the existing CFL stadium right downtown (Tim Horton Field where the Hamilton TigerCats play). the stadium decision essentially took the harbourfront option off the table for a new arena (although many in town do still champion that site).

most folks in town feel that copps coliseum remains the preferred site for a downtown arena. it's central, easy traffic flow, and proximate to local and regional train lines. much of downtown hamilton is undergoing great investment in redevelopment and lands nearby are no longer options for a new downtown arena, so it really just makes sense to renovate copps. notwithstanding common complaint that it would be lipstick on a pig, copps was originally designed to be modular and literally capable of having its roof raised. all things considered, a renovated copps is actually a very good option. it could easily become one of the nicest arenas in the league, and within a fairly short timeframe.

but we will see what the report says.

 

[berklon]

Which is what I've been saying all along. $300M is more than halfway to a whole new arena, so why spend it renovating.

The one thing that has crept into my mind of late is the possibility that waiting around to build a new facility may not be in the "timeline". Rather, and not to intentionally stir the pot, there may not be enough "time" to wait 3,4, or 5 yrs for site procurement, planning, approval, and shovels in the ground. I still would turn my nose up to it, and again only because of the expenses involved, but would have a better appreciation on why.

300M to renovate does seem excessive considering Centre Videotron cost 370M.

Of course if a new arena were to be built in a new location, that may increase the cost to secure the land, etc. Otherwise if it's built in place of the current arena, they'd lose the ability to host events for about 3 years while the arena is being constructed.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

300M to renovate does seem excessive considering Centre Videotron cost 370M.

Well, you've got to figure that if you're doing a renovation that expands seating by that much, you're basically going to have to gut the thing and rebuild from scratch. I guess it depends on what "NHL-standard" means but I'm theorizing that you'd have to upgrade everything from the ice up to the rafters.

 

[berklon]

Well, you've got to figure that if you're doing a renovation that expands seating by that much, you're basically going to have to gut the thing and rebuild from scratch. I guess it depends on what "NHL-standard" means but I'm theorizing that you'd have to upgrade everything from the ice up to the rafters.

I don't think there would be a need to expand seating - it currently holds 17,500, which is a good number. Large enough to satisfy the market and small enough to create higher demand through ticket scarcity. What would be needed are more private boxes (the roof is designed to be removed to build upwards), larger concourses and lobby and other niceties to bring it up to standard. They wouldn't have to gut that much - more like adding on.

In any case, it's a moot point. Nothing will come of this.

 

[Jeffrey93]

And as the bonus... only 50k (or up to) is coming from the city. 100k was raised by private interests. So it's not really even costing them all that much - at least now anyway. JB was going to spend around 160m in 06/07 and the lead guy guessed it would be closer to 300m today to make Copps NHL ready.

Comments like this drive me nuts. It wouldn't cost anywhere close to $300M to make Copps "NHL ready".

It MIGHT take around that much to make it on par with the majority of other NHL venues, but that is more than "NHL ready".

To be "NHL ready" you don't even need to have a venue similar to the worst venue in the league. And I'd argue that the Oilers are currently playing in a rink that Copps with some summer renos would be better than.

If you sunk $300M into that place it would be more than "NHL ready"...it would be up there with rinks built only a handful of years ago.

The rink 'as is' is "NHL ready". This isn't like the Senators playing at the Civic Centre or the Sharks playing at the Cow Palace. This is an adequate arena to host NHL games right now. To make it "revenue ready" to compare with other venues.....yeah, it would take a bit. Not an absurd amount I don't think.

It will be interesting to see where this goes.

 

[yukoner88]

Comments like this drive me nuts. It wouldn't cost anywhere close to $300M to make Copps "NHL ready".

It MIGHT take around that much to make it on par with the majority of other NHL venues, but that is more than "NHL ready".

To be "NHL ready" you don't even need to have a venue similar to the worst venue in the league. And I'd argue that the Oilers are currently playing in a rink that Copps with some summer renos would be better than.

If you sunk $300M into that place it would be more than "NHL ready"...it would be up there with rinks built only a handful of years ago.

The rink 'as is' is "NHL ready". This isn't like the Senators playing at the Civic Centre or the Sharks playing at the Cow Palace. This is an adequate arena to host NHL games right now. To make it "revenue ready" to compare with other venues.....yeah, it would take a bit. Not an absurd amount I don't think.

It will be interesting to see where this goes.

The Coliseum in Edmonton isn't such a great comparison anymore as the Oilers are saying good bye to their old building in 2 days

 

[Butch 19]

renovating a 30 yr old arena would be money poorly spent.

just tear it down already and design what it needs to be, not what will fit in this 30 year old box.

 

[Jeffrey93]

Well, you've got to figure that if you're doing a renovation that expands seating by that much, you're basically going to have to gut the thing and rebuild from scratch. I guess it depends on what "NHL-standard" means but I'm theorizing that you'd have to upgrade everything from the ice up to the rafters.

Want to know what they'd do?

Expand the upper portion of the building to meet up with the lower footprint (relatively cheap). That would create space, that is currently void space (a roof) for a second concourse. The footprint is already there for this.

That would allow for putting in luxury suites around the top of the entire lower bowl.

The roof was designed to be raised to accommodate expansion of luxury suites and possibly extra seating.

The lower level of Copps is quite large.....many suites could be built down there. The term escapes me....whatever you call those luxury boxes that you go back to during intermissions or whenever you want.....but aren't facing the arena space. Bunker boxes maybe. Or the lower level luxury suites could be built at a higher cost....or both, which would increase the 'suite' capacity quite a bit with no real major overhaul of the building.

The place was built to be expanded on. There was no point in putting in all the bells and whistles without a tenant. The Palace of Auburn Hills was based on the design of Copps Coliseum. The Palace put in all the bells and whistles they could.....while Copps put in the least. Pretty similar buildings though....Palace has a larger capacity but Copps might have a bigger footprint, not sure. It'd be close.

 

[Jeffrey93]

renovating a 30 yr old arena would be money poorly spent.

just tear it down already and design what it needs to be, not what will fit in this 30 year old box.

Usually I'd agree. But this was one of the first arenas built to be renovated.

The Flames are deciding if they should renovate the Saddledome or build new.....it's a tough call.

Copps is no different. The footprint and location has a lot to offer, building new causes problems.

Copps is close to a new Go Transit station and will be near the new LRT route.
Copps is downtown.
Copps has a large footprint (expansion room)
Copps borders other city owned property allowing for further expansion.
Copps was designed to be renovated.

Building new.....gotta find real estate. The City could use land recently expropriated for the Pan Am Stadium (before the Tiger-Cats hijacked the process and had the stadium built elsewhere) to use for a new arena. So land might not be an issue....and the region was picked by the city as appropriate for a stadium, so an arena would fit the bill.

But, those lands need to be cleaned up.....need to build an entire structure.

When just a few blocks down the street is Copps Coliseum. So.....why bother?

Just how old is Madison Square Gardens? The renovations of that place have cost an absurd amount. Good footprint....good location. Just like Copps.

 

[Jeffrey93]

Which is what I've been saying all along. $300M is more than halfway to a whole new arena, so why spend it renovating.

The one thing that has crept into my mind of late is the possibility that waiting around to build a new facility may not be in the "timeline". Rather, and not to intentionally stir the pot, there may not be enough "time" to wait 3,4, or 5 yrs for site procurement, planning, approval, and shovels in the ground. I still would turn my nose up to it, and again only because of the expenses involved, but would have a better appreciation on why.

This is a real possibility. But.....it would also buy the city time.

If they renovate Copps to the tune of $150M to $200M they have a venue that would be middle of the pack for NHL venues. Admittedly lower-middle....but with the market they are in.....that still means huge revenues.

Plus....it extends their venue life considerably. If no team shows up.....Hamilton can still land shows, concerts and events on par with other major cities.

So, if no team is coming.....(this was discussed when Copps was built) they would still have an adequate venue for shows, concerts, etc.

If a team shows up.......everyone would jump for joy and open their purse strings......and they would have an adequate facility for quite a few years before building new was a necessity.

I can guarantee you this.....if an NHL team landed at Copps (renovated or not)...the voting public in Hamilton would endorse anyone looking to pile public money into a joint project of building a new rink. It wouldn't be a problem like it has been in other expansion markets.


In fact......if the city sells this as an "NHL lure" the majority of citizens will be over the top in favour of large renovations to Copps.

 

[Jeffrey93]

The Coliseum in Edmonton isn't such a great comparison anymore as the Oilers are saying good bye to their old building in 2 days

So.....you're saying a current NHL venue isn't "NHL ready"?

Remember..."NHL Ready" means you can adequately host games for a while. It doesn't mean you're the Staples Center of the league.

The Oilers apparently profit $17.5m a year in their current building.

They are saying goodbye to that in order to profit double that.

Further, I referenced the Oilers to prove a point. You can operate in an old facility that has seen renovations and still make money.

I think we're at the checkmate point here.......agree?

 

[Jeffrey93]

I implore you all to research Copps Coliseum and learn how this facility was built to serve the current demand but be designed to meet the future demand.

My bet is $150M of renos makes it a middle of the pack NHL venue.

$100M makes it a newer and nicer Northlands. Which could still go for quite a few years.

 

[93LEAFS]

Copps is fine as a temp venue for an NHL team, and could be permanent with the right renovations. Adequate arena is far from the major road block in getting an NHL team. The problem is appeasing Leafs and Sabres (which won't happen) and the fact if they somehow manage to get past this, it will piss off the two companies they need as partners to maximize their revenue as the Leafs owners own the channels that the team needs for TV rights deals, and the means to broadcast games. Even if the Hamilton team tried to have its own channel, it needs Bell or Rogers to carry it.