City of Hamilton backs $100K arena study with eye to NHL

[DyerMaker66*]

Link please.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/2009/09/10/hamilton_would_be_among_top_five_in_revenue_nhl_admits.html

Stats I saw said after 5 years unless they had a winning team they would be playing before 50 to 60% house a night. And when you factor in the looney.... It would be a short honeymoon

Link please.

 

[Slot]

This study is to see if FirstOntario Center can be renovated to NHL. standards or a new arena is needed .

FirstOntario Center Reno & get 25 years more out of the building - $150 million
New Arena - 350 - 400 million

You can bet with Ron Joyce involved in this study that most likely he is the mystery guy Don Robertson was talking about & since Tim Horton's is one of the NHL. biggest sponsors it will be hard to say no to Hamilton this time around withier it is relocation or expansion just look how Winnipeg got the Jets back David Thompson was involved & no way the NHL. is going to say no to one of the richest men in the world so if Hamilton try's again at expansion or relocation they just might get it this time around .

Ron's been there, done that. I don't think the NHL has any wish to deal with him again after the fallout of the bid process they went through in the 80s.

 

[DyerMaker66*]

Ron's been there, done that. I don't think the NHL has any wish to deal with him again after the fallout of the bid process they went through in the 80s.

Fallout? At least he didn't lie, like say, Tampa Bay.

 

[Slot]

Fallout? At least he didn't lie, like say, Tampa Bay.

Yeah he went public with the shady side of indemnity fees. Basically the NHL said that they would take his expansion money and tell him what the indemnification fee was afterwards. To which he, rightly, said no. Then went public with the story.

 

[JMROWE]

Ron's been there, done that. I don't think the NHL has any wish to deal with him again after the fallout of the bid process they went through in the 80s.

First of all Gary Bettman was not commissioner when Ron Joyce tried the first time to get NHL. team for Hamilton it was president of the NHL. John Ziegler & if Ron Joyce is that mystery owner that Don Robertson was talking about I doubt the NHL. & Gary Bettmen would say no to him & Hamilton this time around considering Tim Horton's is a corporate juggernaut that is bigger than MLSE. & Pegula combined & is one of the NHL's biggest sponsors so it will be kind of hard to say no to him .

 

[Slot]

First of all Gary Bettman was not commissioner when Ron Joyce tried the first time to get NHL. team for Hamilton it was president of the NHL. John Ziegler & if Ron Joyce is that mystery owner that Don Robertson was talking about I doubt the NHL. & Gary Bettmen would say no to him & Hamilton this time around considering Tim Horton's is a corporate juggernaut that is bigger than MLSE. & Pegula combined & is one of the NHL's biggest sponsors so it will be kind of hard to say no to him .

Where did I say Bettman? I said the NHL. The BOG has a very long memory.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

I wish this place would stop using the GTHA population as a negative for Hamilton and comparing it to cities that have 15K less people (instead of, say 9,000 more people like Winnipeg which does not have access to the GTA), but here we are.

Maybe you'd be less insulted if I compared it to Stockton (6k more), Little Rock (12k more), or even Dayton (80k more). Hamilton would be the 78th largest market in the US, which is the spot Akron presently holds.

It's a hard sell to anyone on this side of the border.

 

[DyerMaker66*]

Maybe you'd be less insulted if I compared it to Stockton (6k more), Little Rock (12k more), or even Dayton (80k more). Hamilton would be the 78th largest market in the US, which is the spot Akron presently holds.

It's a hard sell to anyone on this side of the border.

I'm not trying to anymore. If they don't believe it in spite what was admitted by the NHL in court then they're already lost.

 

[Slot]

Maybe you'd be less insulted if I compared it to Stockton (6k more), Little Rock (12k more), or even Dayton (80k more). Hamilton would be the 78th largest market in the US, which is the spot Akron presently holds.
It's a hard sell to anyone on this side of the border.

Yeah but don't forget that hamilton is in a much larger urban area that most of those other cities.

Edit reason: I can't grammar.

 

[Hamilton Tigers]

Again, cherry picking numbers based on semantics is irrelevant. What is relevant is the size of the hockey market which is among the biggest and best in the world. Basically, the NHL admitted that when they stated that they think it would be a top 5 revenue generator.

 

[BattleBorn]

Again, cherry picking numbers based on semantics is irrelevant. What is relevant is the size of the hockey market which is among the biggest and best in the world. Basically, the NHL admitted that when they stated that they think it would be a top 5 revenue generator.

And the plan that was reported on last year is still in play. Quebec, Las Vegas, Seattle, Toronto (Hamilton.)

It might be a little behind schedule and the logistics may have gotten wonky, but I'm still a believer.

 

[mouser]

I'm not trying to anymore. If they don't believe it in spite what was admitted by the NHL in court then they're already lost.

The NHL said that in court to bolster their legal position for large relocations fees that Balsie wanted no part of.

Whether the NHL truly believed that statement or was exaggerating for their own self interest I'll leave for others to decide.

 

[Hamilton Tigers]

The NHL said that in court to bolster their legal position for large relocations fees that Balsie wanted no part of.

Whether the NHL truly believed that statement or was exaggerating for their own self interest I'll leave for others to decide.

That's one interpretation.

Another is that that admission was a win for Balsillie and Hamilton's case for an NHL team because prior to that the NHL would say it was a small/bad market. Ever since that admission in court, it's become much more widely accepted that Hamilton would be strong market.

 

[Killion]

Heres the deal peeps:

1) Geographically - Hamilton best site for SO2
2) Copps = unfinished shell of a building, feasible economically
3) Over 3.5M underserved fans within 60mins of Copps Coliseuem
4) Right out of the BOX: Top 5 in attndc, broadcast, merchandising etc

Want more?. google it, get back to me.

 

[Slot]

Maybe you'd be less insulted if I compared it to Stockton (6k more), Little Rock (12k more), or even Dayton (80k more). Hamilton would be the 78th largest market in the US, which is the spot Akron presently holds.

It's a hard sell to anyone on this side of the border.

Hmm how about this.

St Paul, where the wild play is 350 000.

Anaheim, where the ducks play is 440 000.

When you find the logical fallacy in that argument you'll find the logical fallacy in your own.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

Hmm how about this.

St Paul, where the wild play is 350 000.

Anaheim, where the ducks play is 440 000.

When you find the logical fallacy in that argument you'll find the logical fallacy in your own.

St.Paul is part of the Metropolitan area of the Twin Cities (3.5 million). Anaheim is part of the Metropolitan are of LA (18 million). The metropolitan area of Hamilton is 750,000 or so.

Disagree with Jeffery's assertion that the civic and provincial government would shell out $150 - $200 million at the public's behest for renos to Copps. I doubt the majority of the public would be in favor of it either for that matter.

If this team would be a top-5 generator in the league, there is absolutely no way public expenditures would be justified. The larger the market, or perceived market in this case, the less public money involved. In fact, smaller markets have received a substantial infusion of private funds for new arenas/renovations. There would be no excuse for the prospective owners of a future Hamilton NHL team to go hat-in-hand to the public for any arena funding.

 

[Slot]

St.Paul is part of the Metropolitan area of the Twin Cities (3.5 million). Anaheim is part of the Metropolitan are of LA (18 million). The metropolitan area of Hamilton is 750,000 or so.

Disagree with Jeffery's assertion that the civic and provincial government would shell out $150 - $200 million at the public's behest for renos to Copps. I doubt the majority of the public would be in favor of it either for that matter.

If this team would be a top-5 generator in the league, there is absolutely no way public expenditures would be justified. The larger the market, or perceived market in this case, the less public money involved. In fact, smaller markets have received a substantial infusion of private funds for new arenas/renovations. There would be no excuse for the prospective owners of a future Hamilton NHL team to go hat-in-hand to the public for any arena funding.

Do you know how many people live within a 50km radius of the FO centre?

Which doesn't include Toronto btw.

 

[GuelphStormer]

Do you know how many people live within a 50km radius of the FO centre?

Which doesn't include Toronto btw.

that's not really how it works. it's not the arena, it's the boundaries of the city in which a team plays. the eastern edge of the city of hamilton is within 50km of the western edge of toronto. similarly, the southern edge of hamilton is within 50km of the northern edge of buffalo.

in other words, hamilton is absolutely within the 50km overlap rule for both the leafs and sabres and both franchises are well within their rights to request territorial fees. any serious hamilton bidder is well aware of this.

and fwiw, count me among those here who think all of this "my city is bigger than your city" banter here is a complete waste of bandwidth. hamilton can easily support a franchise. who cares how big san diego, the twin cities or timbuktu is.

 

[GuelphStormer]

St.Paul is part of the Metropolitan area of the Twin Cities (3.5 million). Anaheim is part of the Metropolitan are of LA (18 million). The metropolitan area of Hamilton is 750,000 or so.

Disagree with Jeffery's assertion that the civic and provincial government would shell out $150 - $200 million at the public's behest for renos to Copps. I doubt the majority of the public would be in favor of it either for that matter.

If this team would be a top-5 generator in the league, there is absolutely no way public expenditures would be justified. The larger the market, or perceived market in this case, the less public money involved. In fact, smaller markets have received a substantial infusion of private funds for new arenas/renovations. There would be no excuse for the prospective owners of a future Hamilton NHL team to go hat-in-hand to the public for any arena funding.

if put to a hamilton referendum (which we dont do here) a public vote to pay for upgrades to copps would pass by an overwhelming majority. would folks in timmins or windsor vote for upgrades to copps? who cares, hamiltonians dont get to vote on arena grants in those locations.

you seem to imply the arena would only be used for hockey and therefore hockey should pay for upgrades. rest assured, hockey will pay more than its fair share but its silly to suggest it should pay total reno costs. the arena needs upgrades, regardless of hockey.

and if folks want to call arena renovation costs a "subsidy" for the hockey team, then go for it. every franchise, gosh every business anywhere, is "subsidized" if you twist interpretation of public expenditures on public goods hard enough.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Akron is a bad comparison really as the Akron metropolitan area is really a subset of the Cleveland metropolitan area. Of course, whether Cleveland would be a more realistic NHL market than Hamilton is a different story altogether.

 

[jason2020]

Again, cherry picking numbers based on semantics is irrelevant. What is relevant is the size of the hockey market which is among the biggest and best in the world. Basically, the NHL admitted that when they stated that they think it would be a top 5 revenue generator.

Its the biggest Nhl market not hockey market and not the best even the ohl team in Hamilton is attendance wise doing not nearly as good as expected.

 

[Slot]

that's not really how it works. it's not the arena, it's the boundaries of the city in which a team plays. the eastern edge of the city of hamilton is within 50km of the western edge of toronto. similarly, the southern edge of hamilton is within 50km of the northern edge of buffalo.

in other words, hamilton is absolutely within the 50km overlap rule for both the leafs and sabres and both franchises are well within their rights to request territorial fees. any serious hamilton bidder is well aware of this.

and fwiw, count me among those here who think all of this "my city is bigger than your city" banter here is a complete waste of bandwidth. hamilton can easily support a franchise. who cares how big san diego, the twin cities or timbuktu is.

That's not at all what is being argued.

 

[Cacciaguida]

Its the biggest Nhl market not hockey market and not the best even the ohl team in Hamilton is attendance wise doing not nearly as good as expected.

Ottawa and Toronto (Mississauga) have teams and their attendance is even lower.


Should they not have NHL teams?

 

[blueandgoldguy]

if put to a hamilton referendum (which we dont do here) a public vote to pay for upgrades to copps would pass by an overwhelming majority. would folks in timmins or windsor vote for upgrades to copps? who cares, hamiltonians dont get to vote on arena grants in those locations.

you seem to imply the arena would only be used for hockey and therefore hockey should pay for upgrades. rest assured, hockey will pay more than its fair share but its silly to suggest it should pay total reno costs. the arena needs upgrades, regardless of hockey.

and if folks want to call arena renovation costs a "subsidy" for the hockey team, then go for it. every franchise, gosh every business anywhere, is "subsidized" if you twist interpretation of public expenditures on public goods hard enough.

It probably won't matter given the power MLSE has with the board of governors. The board is unlikely to vote in favor of a Hamilton relocation or expansion team.

Kitchener/London would have a higher likelihood of receiving a team as those cities fall outside the parameters set by the NHL for the distance from other NHl team/s. Those cities are growing at faster rate than Hamilton and have access to the large population centres of Toronto, Misassauga, Burlington and Guelph...and Hamilton.

We will have to disagree about the subsidies. There would be more people than you think that would be against significant funding for the Hamilton arena. Some street repairs and beautification in the area immediately surrounding the arena? Or donation of some land for a public square/live event area. Sure, that would be a few million and I think the public would get behind that. But $150 - $300 million to subsidize what many think would be a top-5 revenue generating team? No, that's not happening.

Not only that, but it's not as if the Hamilton would be the sole stakeholder in this little venture. The province would be expected to contribute close to 50% of the costs should ownership have the gall to ask for a 100% public subsidy. Good luck attempting that in a province which has a crippling debt (worse than California) and is not even a year out from the most expensive Pan Am Games on record. No, a good chunk of the public funds would have to come from the province if this became a public endeavour and I don't see that happening. Not when you factor in the recent provincial expenditure on the new stadium as well. Politicians have memories like the rest of us.

Here is a list of the top-revenue earning teams in the NHL (not necessarily in order and their arena funding:

1. Toronto - Air Canada Centre - 100% privately financed
2. Montreal - Bell Centre - 100% privately financed
3. Vancouver - Rogers Arena - 100% privately financed
4. New York Rangers - renovated Madison Square Garden - 100% privately financed
5. Boston - TD Garden - 100% privately financed
6. Philadelphia - 100% or nearly 100% privately financed (32 million from the city and state for infrastructure - not sure if this is the arena itself)
7. Chicago - United Centre - 100% privately financed
8. Los Angeles - Staples Centre - 100% privately financed
9. Washington - Verizon Centre - 100% privately financed

There is no reason Hamilton's prospective owners could not fund the entire venture themselves. All the other top-revenue teams have done so in the past so there is no excuse for what would be a sure money-maker.

This hypothetical ownership group would be getting a big break anyways. They have an 18,000 seat arena to work with. One with good bones that needs a $150 - $300 million upgrade as opposed to spending $500 million on a brand new arena. Pretty fortunate for them one would think.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

Ottawa and Toronto (Mississauga) have teams and their attendance is even lower.


Should they not have NHL teams?

Hamilton only has the junior team though. No competition. Pretty poor attendance all things considered.

Hamilton is not a very good sports town. Certainly worse than Quebec City, Winnipeg, Calgary and Edmonton..might have an edge on Ottawa but that's about it.