Prospect Info: Carolina Hurricanes select C Elias Lindholm at #5

[What the Faulk]

I dunno, after hearing the same thing about Welsh and Dalpe lately it's starting to feel a little hollow to hear him say those things.

I'm just going to hope Lindholm makes it and leave it at that. JR needs to stop saying things that pump up expectations this way.

I don't disagree with your second paragraph, but needless to say, the first is a bit different when you're talking about the #5 overall pick vs. Dalpe/Welsh, etc.

How does the SEL compare to the AHL? I feel like that is being overlooked a bit too much by everyone. It's not as if he's coming out of the OHL playing against 17 year olds.

thats funny, i thought id kept my mouth shut on lindholm compared to the past. its just common sense that any good prospect is better for being developed slower, and there are few examples of that being the wrong thing to do. crosby and doughty are about the only first year players i thought were truly ready in the last decade or so, and wouldnt have benefitted from another year of development. maybe pat kane. im sure we would quibble over a few more names, but none of them would be canes players.

Skinner scored 30 goals and he wasn't ready?

 

[bleedgreen]

i absolutely think jeff skinner wasnt ready for the nhl.

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

I don't wanna rush prospects, but every year guys come out and play and play well right away and I think it's perfectly reasonable to think Lindholm will as well. He's already been playing against men and doing well at it. It's also fair to keep in mind that were this any other year, he'd probably have gone a lot higher than 5th

Let's see how he does in his 9 games, but I fully expect the 3C to be his to lose.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I don't disagree with your second paragraph, but needless to say, the first is a bit different when you're talking about the #5 overall pick vs. Dalpe/Welsh, etc.

I think Lindholm is a better player than those guys, I just wish JR would stop penciling in prospects and announcing it to the whole world.

 

[Anton Babchuk]

If you didn’t check out CanesVision’s interview with Jim Rutherford earlier this week, you missed a pretty interesting nugget about 24-year-old defenseman Bryan Rodney, who’s been filling in for the injured Dennis Seidenberg.

”He’s put himself in a position where, going into next year’s training camp, he’ll have to play himself off the team,” said Rutherford.

That shows just how highly-regarded Rodney is in the Hurricanes’ organization, and how fast he’s risen through the hockey world.

lol.

 

[raynman]

Should've taken a shot during the presser every time it was said Lindholm played with men last year.

 

[caniacnation]

thats funny, i thought id kept my mouth shut on lindholm compared to the past. its just common sense that any good prospect is better for being developed slower, and there are few examples of that being the wrong thing to do. crosby and doughty are about the only first year players i thought were truly ready in the last decade or so, and wouldnt have benefitted from another year of development. maybe pat kane. im sure we would quibble over a few more names, but none of them would be canes players.

I'm not entirely sure I agree with the "slower is always better" idea. I think a great example we can look at is someone like Ryan Murphy. I'm not saying he should be playing top pairing NHL minutes but he is clearly bored in the OHL. He needs to be moved quicker(unfortunately can't), so I could only imagine how an elite player like Stamkos, Skinner, or Tavares would react to an extra year in the CHL.

 

[bleedgreen]

I'm not entirely sure I agree with the "slower is always better" idea. I think a great example we can look at is someone like Ryan Murphy. I'm not saying he should be playing top pairing NHL minutes but he is clearly bored in the OHL. He needs to be moved quicker(unfortunately can't), so I could only imagine how an elite player like Stamkos, Skinner, or Tavares would react to an extra year in the CHL.

stamkos wasnt ready. his rookie year was a gong show, most would say it was melrose's fault but i actually agreed with barry. kid wasnt ready. he put up numbers in the end but he wouldbe just fine in junior. i do understand the push to put the number one in the nhl. in todays game i get why it happens. skinner and lindholm are not number one picks.

tavares wouldnt have been hurt by another year in junior either, but again he was number one and his team gave him a ton of minutes at his appropriate position with the expectation that they were going to fail regardless of the kid.

i think skinner's development as a whole up to this point makes a pretty strong argument all by itself.

 

[What the Faulk]

stamkos wasnt ready. his rookie year was a gong show, most would say it was melrose's fault but i actually agreed with barry. kid wasnt ready. he put up numbers in the end but he wouldbe just fine in junior. i do understand the push to put the number one in the nhl. in todays game i get why it happens. skinner and lindholm are not number one picks.

tavares wouldnt have been hurt by another year in junior either, but again he was number one and his team gave him a ton of minutes at his appropriate position with the expectation that they were going to fail regardless of the kid.

i think skinner's development as a whole up to this point makes a pretty strong argument all by itself.

I disagree entirely. Skinner was able to dance through the OHL with minimal contact. Why would an extra year there encourage him to keep his head up more? Why would he learn defensive responsibility when he's scoring almost 1.5 points per game? "Wouldn't have been hurt by another year", no, but what would he have to gain? Probably not much.

In the end, he scored 31 goals as a rookie, and you're saying he wasn't ready? That's mind-boggling.

 

[tarheelhockey]

What this argument does, is illustrate why it's bad for first-year draft picks to be barred from playing in the AHL.

 

[NotOpie]

Lindholm's cap hit is 1.7M, including all bonuses

His actual cap hit for 2013-14 is only $832,500. Bonuses will go against next year's cap.

 

[tarheelhockey]

His actual cap hit for 2013-14 is only $832,500. Bonuses will go against next year's cap.

But only if they exceed the cap, right?

 

[tomdundo]

But only if they exceed the cap, right?

Yes. If we are strapped to the cap, his performance bonuses will apply towards the cap next year. Or at least that's how I understand it.

 

[bleedgreen]

I disagree entirely. Skinner was able to dance through the OHL with minimal contact. Why would an extra year there encourage him to keep his head up more? Why would he learn defensive responsibility when he's scoring almost 1.5 points per game? "Wouldn't have been hurt by another year", no, but what would he have to gain? Probably not much.

In the end, he scored 31 goals as a rookie, and you're saying he wasn't ready? That's mind-boggling.

well i agree with tarheel the most, the ahl wouldve been the best option. given that its the nhl or ohl then yes id've preferred the ohl. you didnt watch his ohl games so dont tell me he waltzed through the ohl without contact. everything i watched from him actually was less flashy down there than up here! it isnt all about learning offense or worried about offense getting stagnated.

its growing up. in all ways. its learning the responsibilities as a center. his coach wouldve pushed him to lead to the championship, and offense wouldnt have been enough. its growing into his body a little more, learning how to take the middle more effectively, its learning how to deal with adversity more, its being an adult on the ice.

we have 20-21 y/o skinner now, no one trusts him at his actual position three years in. most people are fine with moving him for a young defenseman despite having such unique talent. we watch him literally grow up in front if us, screaming at refs like a 13 y/o girl with her cell phone being taken away. throwing himself on the ice with any contact. fans of other teams are already saying "we dont want him", hes becoming hated across the league for being the whiny diver - and they dont see the half of it.

which would you rather have at this age? a desperate to prove himself kid who is chomping at the bit to make the nhl, or a anxious, temperamental kid who every time he steps on the ice NEEDS to prove he wasnt a fluke at 18 and isnt another samsonov or arnott? he floundered this year. im not saying he wont come out of it, or wont in the end turn out. what did his 30 goals get us? nothing. we need him NOW. we need him now that the expectations are the playoffs and beyond. we didnt need 30 goals from a kid then.

youd think skinner would be the hardest to defend my "theories" about, imo he's easiest. you can take 10 kids out of ANY second round, not just this year, and they can skate in the nhl. some can score. some can defend. they just lack the rest of it. thats why they get developed, and anyone not number one is likely the same way. lindholm absolutely has the skating and fundamental skill level to make it, and probably close to the maturity but of course hed be stronger and more confident a year from now. he'd be a better player and we'd have him a year longer as a rfa when it matters the most - in his mid-20's. we suck. we are always desperate for talent, which is why we want these kids to step right in. this just isnt the NFL. these kids are across the board too young for this, generally.

 

[geehaad]

What this argument does, is illustrate why it's bad for first-year draft picks to be barred from playing in the AHL.

Yep, this is where I am. While I don't agree with bleed that some of these kids benefit from another year in Juniors, I can't exactly argue against his opinion that they aren't completely ready for the NHL. I think it's wrong that a kid has to skip a step in order to take a step forward.

 

[Anton Babchuk]

Well, they aren't barred. Lindholm could play in the AHL if it weren't for his contract with his team in Sweden.

 

[geehaad]

Well, they aren't barred. Lindholm could play in the AHL if it weren't for his contract with his team in Sweden.

Yes, the Euros are a different story, and Lindholm could go back to Europe and get better competition than the CHL, but most of time we're talking about a CHL/NHL choice.

 

[bleedgreen]

id be fine with lindhom if he was an ahl option. if he shuttled back and forth and got a taste from time to time. if he came to camp and absolutely outplayed the incumbent cullen like veteran or that guy gets hurt halfway through and lindholm has been tearing it up and forced jr to make a move to fit the kid in - then id have no choice but to agree. thats not typically the case around here.

 

[What the Faulk]

well i agree with tarheel the most, the ahl wouldve been the best option. given that its the nhl or ohl then yes id've preferred the ohl. you didnt watch his ohl games so dont tell me he waltzed through the ohl without contact. everything i watched from him actually was less flashy down there than up here! it isnt all about learning offense or worried about offense getting stagnated.

its growing up. in all ways. its learning the responsibilities as a center. his coach wouldve pushed him to lead to the championship, and offense wouldnt have been enough. its growing into his body a little more, learning how to take the middle more effectively, its learning how to deal with adversity more, its being an adult on the ice.

we have 20-21 y/o skinner now, no one trusts him at his actual position three years in. most people are fine with moving him for a young defenseman despite having such unique talent. we watch him literally grow up in front if us, screaming at refs like a 13 y/o girl with her cell phone being taken away. throwing himself on the ice with any contact. fans of other teams are already saying "we dont want him", hes becoming hated across the league for being the whiny diver - and they dont see the half of it.

which would you rather have at this age? a desperate to prove himself kid who is chomping at the bit to make the nhl, or a anxious, temperamental kid who every time he steps on the ice NEEDS to prove he wasnt a fluke at 18 and isnt another samsonov or arnott? he floundered this year. im not saying he wont come out of it, or wont in the end turn out. what did his 30 goals get us? nothing. we need him NOW. we need him now that the expectations are the playoffs and beyond. we didnt need 30 goals from a kid then.

youd think skinner would be the hardest to defend my "theories" about, imo he's easiest. you can take 10 kids out of ANY second round, not just this year, and they can skate in the nhl. some can score. some can defend. they just lack the rest of it. thats why they get developed, and anyone not number one is likely the same way. lindholm absolutely has the skating and fundamental skill level to make it, and probably close to the maturity but of course hed be stronger and more confident a year from now. he'd be a better player and we'd have him a year longer as a rfa when it matters the most - in his mid-20's. we suck. we are always desperate for talent, which is why we want these kids to step right in. this just isnt the NFL. these kids are across the board too young for this, generally.

I'm not sure how you can basically call Skinner petulant--which he is--then name Patrick Kane and Sidney Crosby as players who were ready to be in the NHL.

Most of what you've named off are fan perspectives anyway. Management has no desire to trade him as far as we know.

The Canes absolutely need his 30 goals, but they need his 30 goals every year. I'd rather have the guy who's already scored 30 than the guy who *may* one day score 30 while not having yet played an NHL game, "hungry" or not. Let's agree to disagree on Skinner.

In any event, your dismissing of this as a bad move before Lindholm has even stepped on Raleigh ice isn't any better than Rutherford saying he'd be shocked if Lindholm didn't make it. Let's see what he can do it camp before saying "he's not ready" just because he's 18 and not a first overall pick.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

we suck. we are always desperate for talent, which is why we want these kids to step right in. this just isnt the NFL. these kids are across the board too young for this, generally.

Yep. Ron Francis shouldn't have been starting in the NHL until his mid-20s. No question in my mind.

--hank

 

[Havoq]

In any event, your dismissing of this as a bad move before Lindholm has even stepped on Raleigh ice isn't any better than Rutherford saying he'd be shocked if Lindholm didn't make it. Let's see what he can do it camp before saying "he's not ready" just because he's 18 and not a first overall pick.

100% agree. If the kid shows he has what it takes physically, mentally and emotionally to be a contributing asset, I think he should get the nod. There are a lot of players in this league that were not drafted #1 overall that made major impacts quickly.

 

[Roboturner913]

Lindholm strikes me as much more ready for the NHL than Skinner was. I don't really think they are analagous situations.

 

[caniacnation]

well i agree with tarheel the most, the ahl wouldve been the best option. given that its the nhl or ohl then yes id've preferred the ohl. you didnt watch his ohl games so dont tell me he waltzed through the ohl without contact. everything i watched from him actually was less flashy down there than up here! it isnt all about learning offense or worried about offense getting stagnated.

its growing up. in all ways. its learning the responsibilities as a center. his coach wouldve pushed him to lead to the championship, and offense wouldnt have been enough. its growing into his body a little more, learning how to take the middle more effectively, its learning how to deal with adversity more, its being an adult on the ice.

we have 20-21 y/o skinner now, no one trusts him at his actual position three years in. most people are fine with moving him for a young defenseman despite having such unique talent. we watch him literally grow up in front if us, screaming at refs like a 13 y/o girl with her cell phone being taken away. throwing himself on the ice with any contact. fans of other teams are already saying "we dont want him", hes becoming hated across the league for being the whiny diver - and they dont see the half of it.

which would you rather have at this age? a desperate to prove himself kid who is chomping at the bit to make the nhl, or a anxious, temperamental kid who every time he steps on the ice NEEDS to prove he wasnt a fluke at 18 and isnt another samsonov or arnott? he floundered this year. im not saying he wont come out of it, or wont in the end turn out. what did his 30 goals get us? nothing. we need him NOW. we need him now that the expectations are the playoffs and beyond. we didnt need 30 goals from a kid then.

youd think skinner would be the hardest to defend my "theories" about, imo he's easiest. you can take 10 kids out of ANY second round, not just this year, and they can skate in the nhl. some can score. some can defend. they just lack the rest of it. thats why they get developed, and anyone not number one is likely the same way. lindholm absolutely has the skating and fundamental skill level to make it, and probably close to the maturity but of course hed be stronger and more confident a year from now. he'd be a better player and we'd have him a year longer as a rfa when it matters the most - in his mid-20's. we suck. we are always desperate for talent, which is why we want these kids to step right in. this just isnt the NFL. these kids are across the board too young for this, generally.

People said the same crap about Crosby when he came in(whiner, immature, diver, "I wouldn't take him on my team) crap, but I'm pretty sure most GMs would be very happy to land Skinner. The majority of people that would be willing to trade him either want to trade any player when they slip or they want a true number 1 defenseman, which are very hard to come by and would cost a talent like Skinner.

And by the way, it was ALL Barry's fault that Stamkos stunk at the beginning of his rookie year. Yes his numbers did go up later in the season. Basically right when Melrose was fired.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Bleedgreen is a HUGE Skinner supporter.

Just so everyone is clear.

 

[rocky7]

well i agree with tarheel the most, the ahl wouldve been the best option. given that its the nhl or ohl then yes id've preferred the ohl. you didnt watch his ohl games so dont tell me he waltzed through the ohl without contact. everything i watched from him actually was less flashy down there than up here! it isnt all about learning offense or worried about offense getting stagnated.

its growing up. in all ways. its learning the responsibilities as a center. his coach wouldve pushed him to lead to the championship, and offense wouldnt have been enough. its growing into his body a little more, learning how to take the middle more effectively, its learning how to deal with adversity more, its being an adult on the ice.

we have 20-21 y/o skinner now, no one trusts him at his actual position three years in. most people are fine with moving him for a young defenseman despite having such unique talent. we watch him literally grow up in front if us, screaming at refs like a 13 y/o girl with her cell phone being taken away. throwing himself on the ice with any contact. fans of other teams are already saying "we dont want him", hes becoming hated across the league for being the whiny diver - and they dont see the half of it.

which would you rather have at this age? a desperate to prove himself kid who is chomping at the bit to make the nhl, or a anxious, temperamental kid who every time he steps on the ice NEEDS to prove he wasnt a fluke at 18 and isnt another samsonov or arnott? he floundered this year. im not saying he wont come out of it, or wont in the end turn out. what did his 30 goals get us? nothing. we need him NOW. we need him now that the expectations are the playoffs and beyond. we didnt need 30 goals from a kid then.

youd think skinner would be the hardest to defend my "theories" about, imo he's easiest. you can take 10 kids out of ANY second round, not just this year, and they can skate in the nhl. some can score. some can defend. they just lack the rest of it. thats why they get developed, and anyone not number one is likely the same way. lindholm absolutely has the skating and fundamental skill level to make it, and probably close to the maturity but of course hed be stronger and more confident a year from now. he'd be a better player and we'd have him a year longer as a rfa when it matters the most - in his mid-20's. we suck. we are always desperate for talent, which is why we want these kids to step right in. this just isnt the NFL. these kids are across the board too young for this, generally.

good post. while yes there have been some players make an impact quickly, there have been many who have not been able to live up to the expectations and pressure as a kid and have struggled in their careers for years sometimes, seemingly unnoticed and shouldering all the blame for what really amounts to misuse early on. a big issue is confidence and when it takes a big hit, it's very hard to get back.