C Mitchell Marner - London Knights, OHL (2015, 4th, TOR) IV

[hawksrule]

Clearly the one who did not watch was you. lmao at him sucking in the USA and Sweden games.

Sorry, but no. If you can't admit he was bad in these games, then you have no objectivity whatsoever.

 

[Liminality]

Since when is Karlsson even close to the best defenseman at defending? He is amazing and on another level when he or his team has the puck, not so much without it.

I think some of the best puck handlers can make any defense look silly one on one at times. So we always downplay goals saying the defense was horrible but that's what good puck handlers can do in those situations.


Kane made a similar play at 52 seconds against Shattenkirk (I think) in the video. They both have the same stance but Marner is shooting right and Kane is shooting left. Both facing a defender with their stick and the puck closer to the boards. Both of them have the defenders attempting to block the shot. They both have numerous options to deal with the defender but Kane decides to shoot and use the defender as a screen. Marner decides to catch him flatfooted and deke around him to get in closer. Kane had the opening to make the same play Marner did but chose to shoot instead. That's why defenders freeze up against these guys, they have so many options to work against.

That's how I see it anyways.

 

[Blender]

You talk about all these invisible NHL defencemen who actually engage physically with their opponent in a prime scoring area. Can you actually give us examples and put faces to these NHL dmen, because what I usually see with the smart #1 dmen like Vlasic, Keith and Doughty are active sticks and the high hockey iq to get into shooting lanes to prevent scoring opportunities. Physicality usually comes when the puck is along the boards or when trying to clear the front of the net, not in a prime scoring area where all the player has to do is shoot to get a dangerous shot on net.

By "engage physically" I don't just mean hitting, I mean getting in close to the player and actually engaging them. That includes an active stick and positioning, but you have to actually engage the player and not stand there and let them skate around you. If you can flatten them great, but at the very least you need to engage your man and make sure he can't step around you into a better lane. Dunn failed at all of the above and got caught out of the lane and exposed, and that isn't a knock on him as a prospect as most junior defensemen are behind forwards in developing pro level defense.

Here's Keith defending a 2-on-1, he engages Lucic and takes away his time and space as soon as he gets some support.



Here's an entire video of Lidstrom. There are a couple 2-on-1s where he doesn't step up and protects the lane, but he always stays close enough to be engaged.



Here's Vlasic using positioning and his stick to force Duchene into a position where he can engage him and take the puck.



That's just a couple examples. It's so much harder to find highlights of solid, steady defensive play than goals.

 

[The Beyonder]

A good defenseman in the NHL would not typically stop skating and try and block a shot in the slot, they would step up and physically engage the player. Especially when they have other players coming back in support from his own team. Marner's stick handling is unreal on this goal, but Dunn gets torched because he stops skating and puck watches. The forward coming back is hardly skating and barely engages him as well, he'd get stapled to the bench in the NHL for that.

It's a great highlight reel OHL goal that really shows off Marner's puck skills, but it can't be denied that there is far more time and space in juniors than the NHL.

I thought Dunn actually played it well. He had Dvorak possibly going on partial break so he helped his partner. Then when Dvorak passed it to Marner Dunn skated back to Marner, he was naturally caught standing still. He did the right play, which was getting in the lane; and since Marner sold the shot, Dunn made in attempt to getting his body and stick in the Lane. Marner toe dragged his stick and put it through his legs against Dunn who played a possible shot at a stand still.

 

[Judas Tavares]

[mod] I mean if his name was McDavid and this were last year, it wouldn't be "just an OHL defence." but because his name is Marner, ya its just a peewee defence. Anyone belittling the goal wouldn't if that were a prospect on their team.

 

[Cotton]

Sorry, but no. If you can't admit he was bad in these games, then you have no objectivity whatsoever.

Are you a joking? he wasn't "bad" in any game, not having great games doesn't mean he had bad games. Nobody on that team shined.

 

[The Beyonder]

By "engage physically" I don't just mean hitting, I mean getting in close to the player and actually engaging them. That includes an active stick and positioning, but you have to actually engage the player and not stand there and let them skate around you. If you can flatten them great, but at the very least you need to engage your man and make sure he can't step around you into a better lane. Dunn failed at all of the above and got caught out of the lane and exposed, and that isn't a knock on him as a prospect as most junior defensemen are behind forwards in developing pro level defense.

Dunn got himself into a stand still because he pursued Dvorak who might have gone a partial break; so in that regard, he engaged Dvo. Not every play allows the defensemen to engage actively; it's all about reading the play. Dunn did a great job of supporting his D-partner because Dvorak would have had a great opportunity if he didn't. And then when Marner got the puck, Dunn was naturally caught at a stand still. Not every situation is the same, not every situation allows a D-man to step up and engage. Marner sold shot at the beginning and Dunn bit. It was a great play by Marner who faced a D-man caught in a bad situation; you don't want a player skating at you while your a standstill; if he's a player like Marner, you can't fully gauge what he might do. But Dunn played it well, he was defending at 2 fronts.

 

[hawksrule]

Are you a joking? he wasn't "bad" in any game, not having great games doesn't mean he had bad games. Nobody on that team shined.

No, I'm not 'a joking'. He was bad for most of the WJC.

 

[Stats01]

No, I'm not 'a joking'. He was bad for most of the WJC.

well that's just your tiny opinion, thanks for coming out.

 

[MPStoEberletoHall*]

Who do Leafs fans value more, Marner or Nylander?

 

[Stats01]

Who do Leafs fans value more, Marner or Nylander?

I value Nylander more. Mostly based on the position he plays and he's closer to the NHL than Marner is at the moment. Although I see them both making the big club out of camp next year so I'm contradicting myself a bit lol

 

[The Beyonder]

I value Nylander more. Mostly based on the position he plays and he's closer to the NHL than Marner is at the moment. Although I see them both making the big club out of camp next year so I'm contradicting myself a bit lol

I think you mean that Nylander is closer to being more of an impactful player; and I agree. Nylander is ahead of the curve. However, for me. it's Marner; I think he has a higher ceiling. Marner to me has slightly better hands, slightly better vision, more physical, and I think he actually has a better shot. I would say their vision and hands might be about even. They're close though. Both have elite skill; and while they're offensive skills are extremely close, Marner's physical play and defensive play makes me value him a little bit more.

 

[MPStoEberletoHall*]

I value Nylander more. Mostly based on the position he plays and he's closer to the NHL than Marner is at the moment. Although I see them both making the big club out of camp next year so I'm contradicting myself a bit lol

That's what I figured.

Take it easy on me here. I see Nylander as possible top 10 forward in the league in the future, I see Marner as a very good 2nd line RW. They are both very flashy, I just don't see Marner translating his game in the NHL like Nylander will.

 

[TheLeastOfTheBunch]

Who do Leafs fans value more, Marner or Nylander?

Nylander at this point. I mean, it's pretty tough to be ranked/valued ahead of someone who's scoring at a 100+ point pace as a centreman vs men. Still think Marner could eventually be a C under Babcock, but William's proven more at this point.

 

[Stats01]

That's what I figured.

Take it easy on me here. I see Nylander as possible top 10 forward in the league in the future, I see Marner as a very good 2nd line RW. They are both very flashy, I just don't see Marner translating his game in the NHL like Nylander will.

Well for one thing it would be nice if he gained some weight but that's not a major concern. Not everyone can play on the 1st line so he may just end up on the 2nd line in the future. Although I believe he can be a 1st line winger, you can't teach the hands he has or the skill. He's so naturally gifted

 

[pooleboy]

That's what I figured.

Take it easy on me here. I see Nylander as possible top 10 forward in the league in the future, I see Marner as a very good 2nd line RW. They are both very flashy, I just don't see Marner translating his game in the NHL like Nylander will.

I see nylander being better however I think marner will be a 65+ point winger on a yearly basis.

Both are going to be 1st line players imo

 

[hawksrule]

well that's just your tiny opinion, thanks for coming out.

It was the opinion of most people who watched.

 

[Starry Knight]

For all those saying this goal is nothing special because it was minor league defense, Vince Dunn is one of the best defensemen in the league and Nedeljkovic is the best goalie in the league. He didn't trample over some scrubs.

Do you watch knight games? Uh....no. I do and I can tell you Marner has been the engine of that team all year. Hate the leafs if you want but Mitch hasn't played a game for them yet and you don't watch him so why make comments?

You'd be hard pressed to find a Knights fan who'd agree with you; Dvorak is the best player on the team.

 

[Wallet Inspector]

So,like, is Marner a winger or center?

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

I see nylander being better however I think marner will be a 65+ point winger on a yearly basis.

Both are going to be 1st line players imo

I see Marner and Nylander as Kane and Toews in the sense that both are/will be 1st line players but they don't play on the same first line.

 

[Stand Witness]

Rarely do good NHL dman hit a player who's in a prime scoring position in the slot. They use their stick to try and deflect the puck out of play or at least get in the shooting lane. That's basic defending, even though Don Cherry gets pissed when they do that. Anyway, to point out the problem with the bolded part -
Arguably the best defenceman in the NHL:

Since when is Karlsson even close to the best defenseman at defending? He is amazing and on another level when he or his team has the puck, not so much without it.

D-men who take themselves out of position to play the body in the slot like that are going to get danced around even worse than Dunn did. Marner took advantage of a situation just like he would in the NHL. If Dunn tries to play the body (or any D-man for that matter) they are getting danced around. Dunn may not have played it perfectly but he didn't play it bad either. Marner was just better than anyone else on the ice there.

 

[Atomos2]

D-men who take themselves out of position to play the body in the slot like that are going to get danced around even worse than Dunn did. Marner took advantage of a situation just like he would in the NHL. If Dunn tries to play the body (or any D-man for that matter) they are getting danced around. Dunn may not have played it perfectly but he didn't play it bad either. Marner was just better than anyone else on the ice there.

Exactly.

 

[Liminality]

So,like, is Marner a winger or center?

Think his natural position will be a winger but he's the type of player you can put anywhere. top 6 wing, top 6 centre, point on the powerplay. Don't think they'll put him on defense in 5 on 5 situations or try him as a goalie though.

 

[BigWilly]

This is awesome. You know a Leaf prospect is gonna be a beauty when the only things other fans can say after highlight reel goals is "That wouldn't work in the NHL!!!!1!"

 

[Stats01]

This is awesome. You know a Leaf prospect is gonna be a beauty when the only things other fans can say after highlight reel goals is "That wouldn't work in the NHL!!!!1!"

yep, like I posted earlier the thread went full ****** for a bit there..seems a bit better now.