And as stated by others: Good luck signing free agents if you strong arm someone just because you gave them NMC in order to land that person.
Confirmed Trade: [BOS/BUF] Taylor Hall (50%) and Curtis Lazar for Anders Bjork and 2021 2nd round pick
- Thread starter MMC
- Start date
And as stated by others: Good luck signing free agents if you strong arm someone just because you gave them NMC in order to land that person.
Yup, this. Buffalo already has a hard enough time attracting decent free agents. They'd be shooting themselves in the foot if they didn't trade Hall.
tsujimoto74
Moderator
- May 28, 2012
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Free agents only come to Buffalo if they're overpaid to do so anyway, so honestly, who cares? I'd be ecstatic if we got in our own way like that before signing Cody Eakin, for example.
Eventually we will when we start to win.Winning cures everything
Oh gawd, this old argument. It's worked so well for Buffalo being a doormat on contracts and trades, being scared to send vets to minors because of our reputational damage. Enough already. Get tough. Be mean. Be competitive. Only Buffalo is worried about being liked and we are just ridiculed instead. Good teams attract great players. Bills have any troubles getting players? No. They're winning. No magic. Guys loved to be traded to Detroit. Yeah, the suburbs are nice enough but hardly Manhattan. Red Wings were an amazing team and everyone wanted to be there.
Number8
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- Oct 31, 2007
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I can't speak to whether being a "tough" negotiator impacts the willingness of FA's to come to a team or not. I just don't know.
What I do know is that if a GM says "we could have got better as a team if I took a 2nd and Bjork for Lazar and Hall, but chose to be a tough guy and kept Hall who walked for nothing a few weeks later for jack squat" he is going to continue to lose and that DOES impact players desire to come to a new team.
Buffalo got into bed with Hall with a no-risk $8M trial (no long term contract risk and basically a "show me" deal for both sides) and gave him an NMC to make it happen. They knew when they signed him if they had to move him or wanted to move him at TDL he would have all the leverage. It's not like they were surprised.
The ONLY way Buffalo would have been justified in turning down the trade would have been if Boston said something like we'll give you a 7th round pick. At that point, Buffalo should have gone public and everyone would have agreed that Sweeney was just being an asshole and deserved to be told to pound salt. But that's not what happened and Buffalo and Boston made a deal that will help both sides.
Tough, mean, and competitive GM's don't win by that alone. They have to be Smart as well. In fact, they have to be Smart first and foremost and the things you list are really just nice to haves. Mike Milbury always tried to come across as a tough, mean, and competitive (combative) GM. And aren't the Isles' still paying Yashin and Dipietro -- or have those contracts now been passed down to their respective estates by now???????
It's not a "tough guy" — emotion is not want you want. Bad choice of words by me. But you need to be able to negotiate and that means calling a bluff once-in-a-awhile. There seems to be no ability in Buffalo to negotiate at all. Read Brian Burke's book about turning down deals sometimes because it sets the tone for next time. The entire league thinks they can push Buffalo around. Why wouldn't they. Bruins just did it again. Ullmark's agent is next up. Bets on Sabres blinking first and over-paying? One day someone will explain to me how these sad sacks got convinced again that Cody Eakins had any other contract out there close to $4.5 M for two years. And it comes from the top. Ralph Krueger, 3 X $3.75 M. The guy was unemployed and out of hockey for five years. He'd been a coach in NHL for like 50 game. Sabres made him one of top paid coaches in the league. It's not that they tried something different. Fine. But $11.25 M. What in the F? I'd love to know if one other team would have paid him close to that. There is really something wrong in Buffalo and I'm a lifelong fan. Sabres have had a lot of bad luck but also terrible, terrible management and no ability to negotiate anything. We've spent almost decade as a top cap team and not sniffed playoffs. We have an $80.5 M cap for this team? It boggles the mind.
Buffalo makes up for it with its draft picks. You’re about to get another first overall this year anyway. A lot of other teams are in worst positions than you. Look at the Price contract in Montreal. That one has to be more regretful than any of the ones you guys have done.
And Anaheim has 85 million in cap this season and bottom of the barrel like you as well. It’s not just Buffalo. For Anaheim though we cut 30 million this off season though. But you get my point
Jared Dunn
Registered User
I hear what you're saying, but how exactly are you selling Buffalo to anyone without overpaying them right now? Yes winning sells a team, but you have to start winning, and a winning culture doesn't just sprout out of the ground overnight. Krueger was a huge whiff but if they had a competitive season, is there anybody complaining about overpaying him when no other team wanted him?
Number8
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- Oct 31, 2007
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I actually think you'll be ok. It will take time. Be better for you if Ullmark was not a risk to leave, obviously.
To me the problem this year was three fold.
1) Signing Hall in the first place was not a good move. Why spend $8M for any player for one year? Anyone can tell that Buffalo is developing, not a threat to win the Cup. Why have a young team develop around a piece that in all likelihood was going to be there just for the one year.
2) Krueger. Wow, not sure that was a good move to bring him in. Guess the fact that he's gone less than two years into the job tells you everything that Buffalo should have known.
3) Skinner. I'm not going to act like I know what is going on there, but you cannot... cannot, cannot, cannot..... spend that kind of money for that long a time on a player like that without knowing it will turn out well. It's not like they'd never seen him before -- he was on the team!
I get the frustration, but at the end of the day the Sabres are better off getting Bjork and a 2nd rather than nothing. Don't think anyone is going to look at the Sabres and think the Hall trade makes them an easy target. Question why they signed him in first place? Or why they handed that deal to Skinner? Yes, definitely -- but not why they moved him and how that played out. Think it's pretty clear Hall wanted to be in Boston but they couldn't make the deal happen last summer due to Cap.
Look how Tampa treated Johnson. LMAO. Think they'll have any problems getting guys to sign there?
You can’t be serious here. How long have you been following the Bills? The bills have been the doormat of the NFL for years and years!!! Do you know when the last time Bills made the playoffs before Jake Allen? 1999. Bills were horrible from 1999-2017
To compare the bills and the Buffalo Sabres is such a false statement I can’t even take you serious. And then cherry on top saying they get top free agents because they are good is hilarious. They get them now because it’s a playoff bound team.
What about 1999 to 2017??? No one joined that team. It was the laughing stock of the NFL for almost 2 decades.
That's my point. Until they were playoff-team, no one would touch Bills. Pegulas may have gotten lucky with Bills, I'll let you judge that. But the reality is now that they are a contender, suddenly people want to play for Bills. Nobody cares about team being in Buffalo. Winning attracts players. The Sabres will not becoming a contender giving in to every free agent, overpaying on deals etc etc. You can do it drafting, some small pickups here and there. Maybe some smart trades.
I don't even get what you mean by cherry on top saying they get top free agents because they are good is hilarious. They get them now because it’s a playoff bound team. Good and playoff team are essentially the same thing, The issue is how you get to that point. I don't think you get there rolling over on every deal. You get their maximizing all transactions.
So I again ask you sir. How did Buffalo Bills change that around? To make it an attractive free agent destination?
Answer?
Drafting Jake Allen. Then Getting success with a trade of Diggs for him to play with. Sabres can do the same. Your overreaction and an apocalypse is coming is quite silly.
I agree 100% you need to overpay now but you do it smartly. No problem with one year of Hall at $8 M, my guess is we might have gotten him for a BIT less. Not a monster issue. Even the NMC. My issue is overpayments beyond anything justified and that's what we've seen. Skinner at $72 M was borderline insane. Leaving aside he wanted to be near Toronto and Leafs had no interest, let's say Sabres overpaid by 10%. You are telling me Skinner had a $65 M deal over seven years from someone else. (Sabres had that extra year.) I don't believe there was one team taking a $9 M plus cap hit for Skinner. Cody Eakin? Look at all the one year deals at $1 M plus last year and Sabres got to $4.5 M for two. There are so many little deals where they've overpaid beyond where anybody has to go. Krueger gets $3.75 M for three years and you fire your scouts to save money. How the living.....
I agree. We've got the picks with Sabres. Mostly because it's hard to go wrong with 1st or 2nd overall. And drafting for sure was better under Botts and Murray. But every time Sabres are in a negotiating situation is where they tend to fold.
You tell me about Diggs deal because I'm not a football guy. I haven't seen a trade like that with Sabres. I saw us give up O'Reilly for two caps dumps, the 3rd best Blues prospect at time and NOT negotiate any clause that if Blues win a cup or go to final four we get something more. And Sabres made that deal 24 hours before a bonus due with GM having a gun pointed to his head to get it done. Is there a comparable Bills move? No idea. I see us take Kane off the PP heading into trade deadline, deflating his stats and then trade him. Nutso. I see us trade Marco Scandella for a 4th and a few short weeks later he gets flipped for a 2nd. Really? It's such a long list now.
Sabres are at a critical juncture now. Maybe it's time to move Eichel, maybe not. But management hasn't shown any shrewdness on deals. Kevyn Adams is a complete inexperienced wild card. Everybody thinks Sabres are patsies — that's the environment in which an Eichel trade will or won't happen. Hopefully, this time they've finally learned to be a little more shrewd. Doubt it.
Winning changes everything sure, but why would you intentionally hamper your ability to sign free agents by strong arming someone you gave that contract to? I'd do anything to keep my image as a player friendly destination on top of being a winning destination.
I sure as hell would have loved for the Hall trade to be more than what he got but that's spilled milk under the bridge. 2nd rounder is not completely nothing either and can be used as an additional ammo in the draft & Seattle expansion.
Digable5
Buffalo Proton (Positively Charged)
1. You are both making the same point. The Bills had to get to be a Good/playoff caliber team to become attractive to free agents. The Sabres will need to do the same.
2. The guy’s name is Josh Allen. You can’t pretend you know football and call the man Jake twice.
Jake Allen, Josh Allen doesn’t matter. I’m not a fan of the team. The point still remains regarding what I said. I hardly watch Football as it is. And It was a horrible comparison analogy that was the point I was getting across.
Bills have suffered much worst than the Sabres, and a person who hardly watches football can even figure that out what does that say?
That is why I liked Dorion telling Duclair he was free to leave, at some point you have to remind people not to take things for granted "too good for 3.5? Congratulations you are a UFA."
Exactly. Let's not forget Sabres might want to set the tone around the league for trading Eichel. Message with Bruins was, they'll buckle and settle for less. I'm a huge Buffalo fan for 35 years but Sabres fans are delusional if they don't realize reputation of franchise. It's not just usual Buffalo News beat writers saying this, other writers from around the league have questioned this. The Athletic piece quoting former Sabres' captains really captured state of franchise. I fully expect more bad signings and trades in off-season, The Taylor Hall deal is a blip ultimately but part of ongoing dysfunction with team. The Pegulas are fools with deep pockets. The fan base? Maybe a bit too but when push comes to shove, far less people will pay to see this team. NHL fans were allowed back and Pegulas wouldn't even sell tickets to every game, just four. And they couldn't get to 10% capacity. It's a hot mess. Granato is 7-13-3 3 and people are getting excited because finally Casey Mittelstadt is playing well. Myself included. Standards and expectations are so low in people now, for players, ownership, fans. The team needs a total reset from the top so situations like Taylor Hall work out better for Sabres. Inch by inch Sabres could work their way back. Will it happen? I keep hoping. I'm a hardcore fan.
Djp
Registered User
Buffalo is in decent shape with the cap and their contracts. They have a decent prospect pool coming up
comparing football vs hockey in trades and drafts are apples and oranges
Hockey you have player control longer from draft to UFA vs football. Hockey its about 9-11 years, in football its 4 years. teams drafting expect something from picks right away.
in nfl if you think about a roster set up...
rookies 8 players
2 yr 8 players
3rd yr 8 players
4th yr 8 players
if you get 102 players per draft you sign to second contracts this will give you about 10 players you drafted who are 5th yr or later
thats 38 players.
Then you make say 2 big free agent signings for 4+ yrs per year for about 8 players
that gives you 46
from there you gill the roster with some short term vets on 1-2 yr contracts
In hockey you usually have 1-2 players on a teams over 12 years of drafting that fill out a team and the others you get from trades or free agency. in the NHL players have longer careers.
With all sports coaching and gm stability is what matters.
You have a stable system you will get better as you develop talent to fit the system.
In the Bills bad years they had coach turnover every 2-3 yrs which changes the sytem played. part of the problem is you had coaches strong on one side and week on the other.
the biggest example of this was chan gailey era. he was hired with a very very good defense but the offense sucked. If he kept the D alone and just focused on offense the team likely would have ended the playoff drought. he hired a buddy as a D coordinator who used a different system which ruined the defense.
for Bills drafting was not the problem, it was system fitting.
Buffalo invested a 1st in JP Losman. He went through 5 different off coordinators in his first 5 yrs. I dont care how good you are that would kill any QB in the league including tom brady. If they had stability in this who knows how good he could have been because he had the talent.,
Buffalo is going through the same thing with hockey of GM turnover and player change over.
The Sabres have the talent , they need a coach who can let that talent shine having a system that can be designed around their strengths instead of forcing them to change.
What would it take for Boston to extend him? He has said he wants to win, etc. Does that mean he'd take a discount to stay with the Bruins?
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