Player Discussion Bobby Ryan Part VI

[TheBradyBunch]

Imagine if we'd lost Bobby instead of Methot. Would probably be best for our long-term outlook but I doubt we'd be playing as well as we are right now.

 

[Boud]

Losing Bobby with MacArthur out probably means we need to trade a Dmen and a prospect for a top 6 F

 

[Samsquanch]

Imagine if we'd lost Bobby instead of Methot. Would probably be best for our long-term outlook but I doubt we'd be playing as well as we are right now.

I don'tvthink long term that it would have been a good thing for us either. We need the help up front more in both the short and long terms.

Our D is already complete without Methot right now, and the logjam would be riddiculous with him in the mix as well.

The choice has always been Ceci or Methot for the long term, and we made the right choice imo.

In a few years Mac and Brassard (or god forbid Turris) will be off the books, along with Burrows, Thompson, Pyatt.

There will be room for some of the kids and for our current cores new contracts, even with Bobby and his cap hit.

He can make plays that few other guys are capable of. Hes got silky soft hands and can atrack defenders on his drive to the net, where his big body has a presence. Not to mention that he's a gifted playmaker as well.

As long as he plays like he has been, he's what this team needs most of all (offensive firepower).

 

[Stylizer1]

Imagine if we'd lost Bobby instead of Methot. Would probably be best for our long-term outlook but I doubt we'd be playing as well as we are right now.

What would have been ideal was losing both of them. The amount of cap trading those players would give us + Mac's LTI would have given us so much flexibility. Leading up to last seasons playoffs Ryan wasn't as big of a cog on this team. As long as he remains this Bobby Ryan his contract shouldn't be as big of an issue but for the money he is making it is a very fine line.

 

[NyQuil]

What would have been ideal was losing both of them. The amount of cap trading those players would give us + Mac's LTI would have given us so much flexibility. Leading up to last seasons playoffs Ryan wasn't as big of a cog on this team. As long as he remains this Bobby Ryan his contract shouldn't be as big of an issue but for the money he is making it is a very fine line.

What do you do with all that flexibility though?

You don't win hockey games with it.

Let's say you save up some cash for Karlsson, but you're losing hockey games and you don't make the playoffs. Is he as likely to stick around?

 

[Stylizer1]

What do you do with all that flexibility though?

You don't win hockey games with it.

Let's say you save up some cash for Karlsson, but you're losing hockey games and you don't make the playoffs. Is he as likely to stick around?

You could throw a bunch of cash at Tavares or at least let the media report it so he knows. not many teams would have the depth we do and the cap space to improve dramatically and then some. Without Mac and Meth we are fine. Without Ryan in the lineup over the last 4 seasons we were fine. We could have made a play for Panarin too. Losing those 3 players would not of left us in such a big hole that would could not have adapted too.

 

[NyQuil]

You could throw a bunch of cash at Tavares or at least let the media report it so he knows. not many teams would have the depth we do and the cap space to improve dramatically and then some. Without Mac and Meth we are fine. Without Ryan in the lineup over the last 4 seasons we were fine. We could have made a play for Panarin too. Losing those 3 players would not of left us in such a big hole that would could not have adapted too.

Yeah, see, I knew this was where it was going.

Now all we need is you to make a line-up with Tavares and Panarin in there instead of Ryan and criticize Dorion for not making it happen.

 

[Stylizer1]

Yeah, see, I knew this was where it was going.

Now all we need is you to make a line-up with Tavares and Panarin in there instead of Ryan and criticize Dorion for not making it happen.

Where you even looking for an answer or where you finding a way to use that rebuttal?

You asked what to do with that flexibility. You stated you can't win hockey games with it so I used the argument that losing those players would not have an adverse effect on our ability to ice pretty much the same team and how the extra cap "could" improve our team.

 

[JD1]

well, I think with the general nature of the comments on this board all summer about who we could have, why didn't we get this guy or that guy, Dorian is an idiot for not doing this or that or for getting this guy in stead of that guy, I'd say you kind of walked right in to that.

 

[NyQuil]

Where you even looking for answer or where you finding a way to use that rebuttal?

You asked what to do with that flexibility. You stated you can't win hockey games with it so I used the argument that losing those player would not have an adverse effect on our ability to ice pretty much the same team and how the extra cap "could" improve our team.

First off, Ryan had some impact on our playoff run last year. To say that the team would be "fine" in his absence, is unfair I think.

Has he lived up to his contract? Certainly not. Was he our best forward during our 2nd longest playoff run in franchise history? Arguably yes. He was our top scoring forward.

Are there players with that kind of skill set and performance readily available? Particularly in free agency? I don't think so.

We are fine without Methot now (based on 5 games), but were we in that position even two seasons ago?

They are rarely available, and when they are, the cost on them is typically driven up through competitive bidding. Very few free agents are worth their salaries, precisely because whoever wins the bidding war ends up overbidding.

The issue I have is that there is an automatic tendency to point to the best possible options for available cap space when there are 30 other teams competing for the services of those available players.

And the problem with that is that it sets unreasonable expectations for what a GM and an organization can do.

 

[playasRus]

Not to mention, when was the last time a franchise player walked in free agency? Even when a team is shite, franchise players tend to stay put because it's where they're likely to get the biggest pay cheque - see Carey Price. He could've probably gotten a long term 7-8million contract with a contender but he went for that nice payday because winning comes second to most rational people. Suter and Parise are the most recent ones I can think of.

 

[Stylizer1]

First off, Ryan had some impact on our playoff run last year. To say that the team would be "fine" in his absence, is unfair I think.

Has he lived up to his contract? Certainly not. Was he our best forward during our 2nd longest playoff run in franchise history? Arguably yes. He was our top scoring forward.

Are there players with that kind of skill set and performance readily available? Particularly in free agency? I don't think so.

We are fine without Methot now (based on 5 games), but were we in that position even two seasons ago?

They are rarely available, and when they are, the cost on them is typically driven up through competitive bidding. Very few free agents are worth their salaries, precisely because whoever wins the bidding war ends up overbidding.

The issue I have is that there is an automatic tendency to point to the best possible options for available cap space when there are 30 other teams competing for the services of those available players.

And the problem with that is that it sets unreasonable expectations for what a GM and an organization can do.

"Leading up to last seasons playoffs Ryan wasn't as big of a cog on this team. As long as he remains this Bobby Ryan his contract shouldn't be as big of an issue but for the money he is making it is a very fine line." My original statement acknowledges your first sentence and nowhere did i say he didn't have an impact for us in the playoffs.

We are fine without Methot now. 2 seasons ago our team was different. I have always thought Phaneuf was more valuable than Methot and losing Methot would be fine. Methot was a solid positional player and from Ottawa, nothing more.

For 4 years Ryan has been underwhelming until the playoff run last year. That Bobby Ryan we have never seen and when he has been out due to injury we actually played as good if not better. That is why I said we wouldn't miss him. The fact is that Ryan's contract is impossible to move because of the money and term, and the fact he has a NTC. Finding a 15 goal/40 point scorer to replace him with would be pretty easy to have done through a trade if we had too. Ideally losing him with the other 2 would have benefited us but alas, he looks to have finally got his act together (based on 5 games) looks better but like every year he has been here something usually goes wrong.

It is a pipe dream to think we could lure Tavares here but with the run we had last season, how good we do this season, and the available cap space could be all we need to get his attention. Of all the players on our team making around 7 million one of them should be a center. For what Ryan has produced and how he has produced his salary would be better used upgrading positions on our team. Looking at it emotionally he's our guy and we have to support him and hope he plays his best. Looking at it from a point of view of making this team the best it can be, at his salary, it's not being financially responsible. If he were making 2.5 - 3 million less he would be a valuable asset to us for his production. That extra money is important to trying to win a cup in resigning players and being able to add players through trades.

Since when is having a tendency to point out the best possible options for this team a bad thing for discussion?

 

[NyQuil]

First of all, you changed your post since I quoted yours.

Secondly, there's nothing wrong with a pipe dream discussion provided that's not the standard used to evaluate management.

There are Tavares discussions happening on 31 team boards around here.

 

[Stylizer1]

Not to mention, when was the last time a franchise player walked in free agency? Even when a team is ****e, franchise players tend to stay put because it's where they're likely to get the biggest pay cheque - see Carey Price. He could've probably gotten a long term 7-8million contract with a contender but he went for that nice payday because winning comes second to most rational people. Suter and Parise are the most recent ones I can think of.

Suter and Parise both chose to move back home or relatively close to.

There is also another reason franchise players stay with their team, it's because they are the ones with the cap space to keep them. Which contender out there was able to pay Price 7-8m? Contenders are usually hugging the cap ceiling and by moving 7-8 million would change their dynamic. Not to mention you don't need an 8 million dollar goalie to win a cup. Montreal giving him 10.5 was a huge waste of resources. A lot of bad teams could have done it but why would he leave an average team to go to a worse one? Tavares would have a chance to go to a better team that could pay him pretty much what he wants and have a better chance at winning than in NY.

 

[Stylizer1]

First of all, you changed your post since I quoted yours.

Secondly, there's nothing wrong with a pipe dream discussion provided that's not the standard used to evaluate management.

There are Tavares discussions happening on 31 team boards around here.

What did I change?

 

[Stylizer1]

First of all, you changed your post since I quoted yours.

Secondly, there's nothing wrong with a pipe dream discussion provided that's not the standard used to evaluate management.

There are Tavares discussions happening on 31 team boards around here.

This should be the disclaimer for the proposed trade thread so people know the rules.

 

[NyQuil]

What did I change?

Sorry, you portrayed the Ryan thing differently in two subsequent posts.

I was responding to: "Without Ryan in the lineup over the last 4 seasons we were fine."

 

[Tundraman]

Like most forwards Ryan is playing Boucher's system perfectly.

My concern is his lack of good shooting opportunities to start this season. The few times he's had some he's passed the puck to someone in a less favorable position than his own. Don't get me wrong. He's physical pursues the puck fine and makes good defensive choices so I'm not criticizing his play. I know he wants to be a play maker but he's a winger who is paid to score goals so he has to get a bit greedy about owning the puck and taking shots.

 

[aragorn]

Considering Ottawa has Phaneuf & Ryan for a few more yrs & Karlsson is going to want a ton of cash soon& they need to re-sign Turris, can this team afford Tavares? Simmons has another yr left on his cap friendly contract, would rather see PD go after him & Landeskog or Neal.

 

[playasRus]

Just retaining all three of Stone/Turris/Karlsson alone will take 12 million of extra cap space alone. Say the cap goes up by 2 mil every year the next two years, we gain 4 million from that, 5.5 million from Burrows/Hammond/Thompson, and we're currently under the cap by 5 million. We're juts barely squeezing by without counting replacements for Burrows and Thompson at league minimum.

 

[Samsquanch]

Just retaining all three of Stone/Turris/Karlsson alone will take 12 million of extra cap space alone. Say the cap goes up by 2 mil every year the next two years, we gain 4 million from that, 5.5 million from Burrows/Hammond/Thompson, and we're currently under the cap by 5 million. We're juts barely squeezing by without counting replacements for Burrows and Thompson at league minimum.

Clark Mcarthur will be another 5m off the books. Brassard will likely come off the books at the end of his contract (for one of Brown/White/chlapik). We should be fine, and still have room to add imo.

 

[playasRus]

Clark Mcarthur will be another 5m off the books. Brassard will likely come off the books at the end of his contract (for one of Brown/White/chlapik). We should be fine, and still have room to add imo.

I guess MacArthur's 4.5mil could be put on LTIR if needed to make room for an acquisition like Tavares. Turns out we have quite a bit of space after all. MacArthur's cap alone should allow us to resign Stone comfortably and Turris if he were willing to take less than 7-8 years at ~6million each.

I can't see Brown/White/Chlapik taking 4 million raises right away. I expect they'll be bridged a la Stone/Hoffman. Especially White who's going to have 1.5 years until his next contract. He'd had to overachieve quite a bit to command a 5 million contract. All just conjecture of course but more likely he has a 20-30 point season coming from a broken wrist, and maybe a 30-40 pt sophmore season and gets a 2 years 3million show me contract like Dzingle.

 

[Stylizer1]

I guess MacArthur's 4.5mil could be put on LTIR if needed to make room for an acquisition like Tavares. Turns out we have quite a bit of space after all. MacArthur's cap alone should allow us to resign Stone comfortably and Turris if he were willing to take less than 7-8 years at ~6million each.

I can't see Brown/White/Chlapik taking 4 million raises right away. I expect they'll be bridged a la Stone/Hoffman. Especially White who's going to have 1.5 years until his next contract. He'd had to overachieve quite a bit to command a 5 million contract. All just conjecture of course but more likely he has a 20-30 point season coming from a broken wrist, and maybe a 30-40 pt sophmore season and gets a 2 years 3million show me contract like Dzingle.

Getting out from under Methot's contractwas a blessing. Having the same happen with Ryan's contract would help that much more. Right now Phaneuf's position is more valuable to us that Ryan's is and that is why he is expendable

This is the argument if we are truly going for it before all of our extensions kick in and we could possibly start losing players because there is no room.

 

[Xspyrit]

Getting out from under Methot's contract was a blessing. Having the same happen with Ryan's contract would help that much more. Right now Phaneuf's position is more valuable to us that Ryan's is and that is why he is expendable.

Everything there is controversial to say the least and I'm not sure where to begin... I usually don't read your posts because there's too much to argue but unfortunately I bumped on this one. I won't say much because everyone already knows what's wrong here. I'll just say this :

Ryan is one of the best goal creators on the team, with Karlsson and Stone. Sure, let's just get rid of him and have Chris Didomenico in his place.

Did we need cap space this year? No, and as long as we don't spend to the cap we won't. We could have Mac's 4.65 on LTIR but that's not the case because we are not a cap team.

When EK extension kicks in, Brassard, Burrows, Dzingel and Thompson contracts expire (10.95 for 4 players). Guys like Brown, Chlapik, Perron, Formenton, Batherson, etc should be ready by then and replace them cheaply. The team will easily be able to afford Karlsson new contract. Stone, Ceci and Turris raises will be absorb by current cap space, raise of the cap and Mac's LTIR cap hit. Again, no problem.

Again, non-issue, nothing to see here.

 

[aragorn]

With the cap continually going up every yr will we get to a point where Melnyk says he can't afford or refuses to increase the internal budget? For a small market can Melnyk afford a $70 mil team over the next few yrs?