Better GM? Toronto vs. Winnipeg

[Kelly]

Jets have talented players to keep Matthias out of the line-up, and a top-end young goalie that beat Mason out for the starter's role. Leafs apparently can't find anyone to replace Polak or Martin...

Martin hasn't played in 4-5 games, seems as of now Kapanen has taken his spot, and Babcock loves Polak -- we have guys like Borgman, and Carrick who could easily replace him. I don't expect fans from other teams to know these intricacies though .

Anyway, my points been made -- everything you said in your prior post could be said for Martin, outside being used as expansion draft fodder. The contracts I've mentioned (Mason, Matthias) have about the same impact on the Jets cap, as Martin, Moore, and Polak do on the Leafs. Which is minimal.

Leafs are fine in cap space, they can easily dabble into LTIR if they needed and deal with the ramifications next year, but they don't need to. They have Horton and Lupul who could go on LTIR, I think they may be using it for one, but not for both iirc. (may be incorrect on this, just going based off memory)

Again, if Matt Martin @ 2.5million is our worst contract, Lou has done a great job. Simple as that.

 

[Blue Shakehead]

I'm surprised 38-year-old/38 point-pace Patrick Marleau's name didn't come up in the discussion of shitty contracts. $6.25 million with two more years after this one?

 

[X66]

It's obvious both GMs have done an amazing job.

 

[X66]

I'm surprised 38-year-old/38 point-pace Patrick Marleau's name didn't come up in the discussion of ****ty contracts. $6.25 million with two more years after this one?

It's because people that actually understand the contract know it's not terrible.

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

It's because people that actually understand the contract know it's not terrible.

I thought it was discussed earlier in the season. Playing Leivo/Kapanen made a lot more sense and then to spend the remaining 5m on a more needed position. Not a terrible contract? Only if Marleau retires, and the Leafs dump his cap relatively cheap. But certainly if the Leafs look like contenders in 2019/20, Marleau has not motivation to retire or certainly waive his NTC. Either way it's 6.25m cap hit the Leafs have to get rid of and just absorb.

 

[ImpartialNHLfan]

I thought it was discussed earlier in the season. Playing Leivo/Kapanen made a lot more sense and then to spend the remaining 5m on a more needed position. Not a terrible contract? Only if Marleau retires, and the Leafs dump his cap relatively cheap. But certainly if the Leafs look like contenders in 2019/20, Marleau has not motivation to retire or certainly waive his NTC. Either way it's 6.25m cap hit the Leafs have to get rid of and just absorb.

There's a little over 2 years left on the contract, I think the leafs will survive. Thanks for the concern though

 

[Peiskos]

Leafs were dead last in 2016, they are now sitting 8th in the league (although tied for 6th) and are going to make the playoffs for 2 straight seasons.

For me that is more impressive managerial turn around than Winnipeg who never reached such lows.

 

[Menzinger]

I'm surprised 38-year-old/38 point-pace Patrick Marleau's name didn't come up in the discussion of ****ty contracts. $6.25 million with two more years after this one?

25 goal pace so far.

In abstraction I’d agree that the Marleau contract isn’t great, with the context of the Leafs - ie the reality is they have plenty of capspace over the next couple seasons to add luxury support pieces (which is exactly what Marleau is) it’s a fine move. Might as well take advantage of an opportunity they won’t have in a few years.

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

Martin hasn't played in 4-5 games, seems as of now Kapanen has taken his spot, and Babcock loves Polak -- we have guys like Borgman, and Carrick who could easily replace him. I don't expect fans from other teams to know these intricacies though .

Anyway, my points been made -- everything you said in your prior post could be said for Martin, outside being used as expansion draft fodder. The contracts I've mentioned (Mason, Matthias) have about the same impact on the Jets cap, as Martin, Moore, and Polak do on the Leafs. Which is minimal.

Leafs are fine in cap space, they can easily dabble into LTIR if they needed and deal with the ramifications next year, but they don't need to. They have Horton and Lupul who could go on LTIR, I think they may be using it for one, but not for both iirc. (may be incorrect on this, just going based off memory)

Again, if Matt Martin @ 2.5million is our worst contract, Lou has done a great job. Simple as that.

Agree with your analysis, Though Marleau's 6.25m is somewhat painful. Borgman and Dermot seem ready for NHL duty, and along with Hainsey, Zaitsev, Gardiner maybe Carrick/Holl....that's pretty good and cost efficient defence next season

Martin has front loaded contract and will his bonus signing next July 1 is easy cap dump. Next year only Horton is on LTIR. How LTIR affects the cap is when he can use your performance. If Horton's salary, 5.25m is used on the opening day roster cap, the Leaf about 9m to spend on UFAs next summer, and it allow for about 4m more in cap freedom in 2019/20 when there will be more expensive signings.

 

[Menzinger]

Way too early to tell either way.

Chevy seems too passive for my liking, though his drafting has been very strong. Free agency moves, less so.

Lou and the Leafs have been doing well, but they have had their own hiccups too.

 

[Whileee]

Leafs were dead last in 2016, they are now sitting 8th in the league (although tied for 6th) and are going to make the playoffs for 2 straight seasons.

For me that is more impressive managerial turn around than Winnipeg who never reached such lows.

Leafs tanked to deliberately reach that low. It was a strategic swan dive, which is impressive in its own way.

 

[Whileee]

Way too early to tell either way.

Chevy seems too passive for my liking, though his drafting has been very strong. Free agency moves, less so.

Lou and the Leafs have been doing well, but they have had their own hiccups too.

Perreault and Kulikov are two of the better UFA signings in recent years.

 

[Jeebs]

As a Leafs fan I have mixed feelings about Lou's time as GM

Matt Martin signing was bad.
I believe the Polak signing was bad but others might disagree.
Marleau has played well but the next 2 years are going to determine the value of that contract.
The Zaitsev contract is bad.
The last couple years of drafting hasn't been much to be excited about (Jury is still out since they can still develop)

Andersen trade and signing has been really good.
The Kadri contract is great
the Rielly contract is great


Most of the improvement on the ice is from youth and Babcock neither of which has much to do with Lou.

 

[Kelly]

Leafs tanked to deliberately reach that low. It was a strategic swan dive, which is impressive in its own way.

Nah, No different than any bottom feeder ever.

Actually finished with more points than the year prior.

 

[Whileee]

Nah, No different than any bottom feeder ever.

Actually finished with more points than the year prior.

Those were impressively bad seasons. After 68 points, they traded their top scorer (Kessel) for futures, and at the 2016 TDL dumped every live body they could (including their only decent goalie that season). It was an epic tank job. I'm not criticizing - it was exactly the right thing to do.

 

[Peiskos]

Leafs tanked to deliberately reach that low. It was a strategic swan dive, which is impressive in its own way.

Toronto was the best last place team in a long long time, losing many of the games by just 1 goal. They simply lacked the talent, the team wasn't purposely trying to tank. It was just a legitimately poor team that finished last despite all their efforts not to.

I will also speak of lows in regards to how Toronto was a mediocre team for such a long time, not shitty enough to get the top draft pick and not good enough to make the playoffs, right in that hopeless 10th-12th seed in the east range year after year (before the new format) Leafs were like that with every new GM and coach that game in, the easy target for jokes for years..but once Lou and Shanny arrived? its been a completely different story. Their rise back to respectability has been extraordinarily swift.

Which IMO is much more impressive than the 2011 relocated Atlanta Thrashers seeing success in the 2018 regular season.

 

[Whileee]

Toronto was the best last place team in a long long time, losing many of the games by just 1 goal. They simply lacked the talent, the team wasn't purposely trying to tank. It was just a legitimately poor team that finished last despite all their efforts not to.

I will also speak of lows in regards to how Toronto was a mediocre team for such a long time, not ****ty enough to get the top draft pick and not good enough to make the playoffs, right in that hopeless 10th-12th seed in the east range year after year (before the new format) Leafs were like that with every new GM and coach that game in, the easy target for jokes for years..but once Lou and Shanny arrived? its been a completely different story. Their rise back to respectability has been extraordinarily swift.

Which IMO is much more impressive than the 2011 relocated Atlanta Thrashers seeing success in the 2018 regular season.

Jets organization has been built from the ground up, and is now quite a bit deeper than the Leafs, especially on D. A lot of the core pieces on the Leafs current roster were there before the current management... Rielly, Gardiner, JVR, Kadri, Bozak, Brown etc. The main additions have been Matthews, Nylander and Marner, which were sort of no-brainer picks at #1, #4, #8. Andersen was a good pick-up, but he was very expensive for a goaltender (1st and 2nd round picks).

 

[TheDoldrums]

Andersen was a good pick-up, but he was very expensive for a goaltender (1st and 2nd round picks).

I doubt many people agree that the 30th and 50th picks is a very expensive package for a goalie of his caliber.

 

[TMLeafs17]

As a Leafs fan I have mixed feelings about Lou's time as GM

Matt Martin signing was bad.
I believe the Polak signing was bad but others might disagree.
Marleau has played well but the next 2 years are going to determine the value of that contract.
The Zaitsev contract is bad.
The last couple years of drafting hasn't been much to be excited about (Jury is still out since they can still develop)

Andersen trade and signing has been really good.
The Kadri contract is great
the Rielly contract is great


Most of the improvement on the ice is from youth and Babcock neither of which has much to do with Lou.

Did you ever see Martin with the NYI? He was amazing. He’s was great here last year imo and 2.5M isn't going to hinder us. He’s definitely still tradable too if we want to go that route.
Polak is decent and was a force at the end of last year and into the playoffs. This year he’s taken a step back after a bad injury.
Zaitsev contract could look magnificent or average, don’t see how you can argue it’s bad.
Thats wrong. Dermott and Grundstrom especially look like beauties. And if you claim Nylander/Marner picks were slam dunks, you’re wrong. Many were shouting for Ritchie/Hanifin at the time.

 

[Kelly]

Jets organization has been built from the ground up, and is now quite a bit deeper than the Leafs, especially on D. A lot of the core pieces on the Leafs current roster were there before the current management... Rielly, Gardiner, JVR, Kadri, Bozak, Brown etc. The main additions have been Matthews, Nylander and Marner, which were sort of no-brainer picks at #1, #4, #8. Andersen was a good pick-up, but he was very expensive for a goaltender (1st and 2nd round picks).

Jets have Buff, Little, Wheeler, and Enstrom from the Atlanta days, pretty similar calibre players to Toronto.

Also, you can say the same for Laine and Ehlers as no brainers. Connor also fell in your lap too.

Also since when is a 30th pick and 2nd an expensive price to pay for a starting goaltender? What a ridiculous thing to say.

 

[BlueBaron]

Those were impressively bad seasons. After 68 points, they traded their top scorer (Kessel) for futures, and at the 2016 TDL dumped every live body they could (including their only decent goalie that season). It was an epic tank job. I'm not criticizing - it was exactly the right thing to do.

JVR and Bozak were dead at the time? We dumped a bunch of one year contracts. Why do people always have to misrepresent things?

 

[Kelly]

JVR and Bozak were dead at the time? We dumped a bunch of one year contracts. Why do people always have to misrepresent things?

I'm not sure what his point is, but he's wrong.

Leafs were just a garbage team that year. Almost sounds like he has us mixed up with the Sabres.

 

[BlueBaron]

I'm not sure what his point is, but he's wrong.

Leafs were just a garbage team that year. Almost sounds like he has us mixed up with the Sabres.

It's a recurring theme among the haters. They have created this mythology our goal was to be in last as if our management knew being exactly the same in the standings would suddenly drop us to last and that they knew JVR would get injured.

The sad thing is that even after being shown they are wrong they usually continue to repeat it.

 

[Jeebs]

Did you ever see Martin with the NYI? He was amazing. He’s was great here last year imo and 2.5M isn't going to hinder us. He’s definitely still tradable too if we want to go that route.
Polak is decent and was a force at the end of last year and into the playoffs. This year he’s taken a step back after a bad injury.
Zaitsev contract could look magnificent or average, don’t see how you can argue it’s bad.
Thats wrong. Dermott and Grundstrom especially look like beauties. And if you claim Nylander/Marner picks were slam dunks, you’re wrong. Many were shouting for Ritchie/Hanifin at the time.

Grundrstrom and Marner are the only picks you listed that were drafted when Lou was GM. As for Marner's pick, Hanifin is turning into a really good defensman, and the top 10 of the draft was stacked. Marner won every award you could win in junior so I'm gonna take it easy on singing their praises for hitting on that pick.

As for Martin, it was clear to many from the very beginning that it was a bad signing. You don't give 2.5 x 4 to 4th liners... ever. Anyways since the Leafs are already willing to trade him and that they'd retain salary, it would appear no one else thinks his contract is good value either.

Polak was playing better at the end of last year. but they signed him again after a horrific leg injury. What did they think was going to happen?

Zaitsev is alright, nothing special, but nothing special shouldn't ever get 7 years.

 

[Whileee]

JVR and Bozak were dead at the time? We dumped a bunch of one year contracts. Why do people always have to misrepresent things?

JVR missed half the season. Bozak missed 25 games. Leafs seemed quite "injury prone" that season. Trading a 0.918 goalie is sort of a signal that you aren't trying to win very much.

It's fine if you don't think the Leafs tanked for the Matthews draft, but I think the evidence is pretty clear.