Auston Matthews vs Patrik Laine
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The Winter Soldier
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- Apr 4, 2011
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You said I called him a choker. If so, please provide the quote. I asked you for this yesterday and I am asking you again today. Since you repeated the claim. And I am still waiting for you to prove it.
I stand by my earlier post. You have a clear bias for Matthews, and only now reluctantly have decided to say you would be happy with Laine and Matthews because to say otherwise would expose your hypocrisy in this thread.
As for being a fan of a certain team. Since you asked. How often have I posted on that board. Maybe this is why I can 100% back up my position of being a neutral hockey fan on this site. Since I don't post on any team's boards anymore by choice.
Plural
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- Mar 10, 2011
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This thread has been kind of ridiculous for a while now. Some posters read what they want and intentionally misunderstands some of the points made.
When I (or someone else) say that Matthews is the more safer pick, I don't mean that he has higher skill level or that he's better player all things considered. What I am saying is that Matthews has skills and tools that are commonly easier to translate in to NHL ice. He has good skating abilities, great playmaking, good net-presence, great defensive instincts. All those traits are on average translated pretty well to the NHL. Which makes me believe that Matthews has pretty high floor. So, worst case scenario, you are probably going to get a decent 2nd line center from him. He's probably going to be better, but if all things go south, he's most likely going to be at least decent 2nd line center.
Regarding to Laine, he has a skill-set that's more rare and even more coveted than Matthews. But his skill-set is much, much harder to translate in to the NHL. Also, Laine is not going to be very useful player if he's not playing top-6 and preferably top-3 minutes. In a way, I feel that Matthews has almost no bust-potential. Of course anything can happen, but Matthews is a very safe bet to become NHL regular in two years. With Laine, you might get one of the premiere goal-scorers in the NHL (although all this talk about scoring 50 in two years is really premature) or worst case scenario, you get a first round pick who's career pans out in Europe. Again, it's not likely for that to happen, since Laine is world class talent. But the way you can utilize a player like Laine is much more narrow than the way you can utilize player like Matthews.
In that sense, most team are probably pretty high on Matthews, because he's a really good bet to become your teams leading center. Even if he's not as dynamic goal-scorer or doesn't possess that rare offensive nose Laine has, Matthews is still a wold-class talent himself and his overall package is just as valuable as Laine's.
You get to pick two baskets, one has 9-7 apples in it and one has 10-4 apples in it. Which one would you pick?
(I realize that analogy is easy and lacking in context. But it's a simple attempt to visualize the difference I see in these two)
When I (or someone else) say that Matthews is the more safer pick, I don't mean that he has higher skill level or that he's better player all things considered. What I am saying is that Matthews has skills and tools that are commonly easier to translate in to NHL ice. He has good skating abilities, great playmaking, good net-presence, great defensive instincts. All those traits are on average translated pretty well to the NHL. Which makes me believe that Matthews has pretty high floor. So, worst case scenario, you are probably going to get a decent 2nd line center from him. He's probably going to be better, but if all things go south, he's most likely going to be at least decent 2nd line center.
Regarding to Laine, he has a skill-set that's more rare and even more coveted than Matthews. But his skill-set is much, much harder to translate in to the NHL. Also, Laine is not going to be very useful player if he's not playing top-6 and preferably top-3 minutes. In a way, I feel that Matthews has almost no bust-potential. Of course anything can happen, but Matthews is a very safe bet to become NHL regular in two years. With Laine, you might get one of the premiere goal-scorers in the NHL (although all this talk about scoring 50 in two years is really premature) or worst case scenario, you get a first round pick who's career pans out in Europe. Again, it's not likely for that to happen, since Laine is world class talent. But the way you can utilize a player like Laine is much more narrow than the way you can utilize player like Matthews.
In that sense, most team are probably pretty high on Matthews, because he's a really good bet to become your teams leading center. Even if he's not as dynamic goal-scorer or doesn't possess that rare offensive nose Laine has, Matthews is still a wold-class talent himself and his overall package is just as valuable as Laine's.
You get to pick two baskets, one has 9-7 apples in it and one has 10-4 apples in it. Which one would you pick?
(I realize that analogy is easy and lacking in context. But it's a simple attempt to visualize the difference I see in these two)
Plural
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All right. So it's going to be largely a guessing game for us after the WC. I think Matthews still has a pretty solid case but I would like to see some rankings and reasonings behind them after the WC.
One of the more interesting drafts as a Finn.
The way I see it is like the threads title is; AM vs PL and as a hockey player Laine is the better one. But giving how good AM is also, the need of a center in teams will be the deciding factor. So I'm just hoping that Edmonton lands on Laine, be it 1/2/3 pick.
Yeah, go back to the draft threads two years ago. Using terms like we and us. And even if you didn't call Matthews a choke artists, you implied he wasn't a big game player by continually harping on the accomplishments of Finns this year. And how would it be hypocritical? I've said for months Laine is the number 2 prospect in this draft and that I'd be happy with either. Way before I started arguing with you. I think some Finns could actually back me up on this like BB88.
How can someone go from this to a neutral observer now? Guess you were either never a fan, or for whatever reason ditched a team you were hoping gets a core piece, and now argue on the opposite side of that teams prospects in 99% of threads that involve them. But yeah, your not a hypocrite...... Atleast with some of the very biased Finnish posters I understand why they are that way (they are fans of a fellow countryman, it makes sense), I have no idea what your angle is, but its actually comical.
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=87077575&highlight=#post87077575
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The Winter Soldier
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Laine was better than Matthews at the WJC. No doubt about it, when you factor in performance in key games. He was clutch.
What he has done lately is just icing on the cake to exclaimate the point. While Matthews has been reportedly good in the Zurich playoffs, his favoured team was ousted, and he did not score a goal in the series. But to be fair he was good if we are to believe reports.
But he wasn't as good as Puljujarvi's gold medal 3x goal game, nor Laine's big game heroics.
The question is do you take a potential generational winger or a very good #1C this draft. This is why I don't envy the winner of the lottery.
Caged Great
Registered User
It depends I think on who wins the lottery.
A team that has young centers like Edmonton with McDavid/Draisaitl/RNH and Calgary with Monahan/Bennett/Backlund/Jankowski might opt to go with Laine as an offensive weapon to compliment their other players.
Imagining Gaudreau feeding Laine for one timers would be amazing.
A team that has young centers like Edmonton with McDavid/Draisaitl/RNH and Calgary with Monahan/Bennett/Backlund/Jankowski might opt to go with Laine as an offensive weapon to compliment their other players.
Imagining Gaudreau feeding Laine for one timers would be amazing.
snipes
How cold? I’m ice cold.
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Me too
Who really wins if Laine ends up in Edmonton are hockey fans, him and McDavid would be a special combination we only see a few times in our lifetime.
I'm sure lots of Finnish fans would become Oiler fans like back in the Kurri days.
The Winter Soldier
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What can I tell you as I said. I did not say Matthews was a choker as you claimed multiple times. Yet you keep repeating this. Doesn't look good on you as a poster.
As for me posting exclusively on the Main board now, It backs up the notion I do not have a team, so yes that would make me a Neutral Hockey observer on this site.
Now maybe we can get back to focusing on Laine and Matthews, instead of posters here. This is a strong hint. I know I will.
Yet you constantly say the others were much more clutch, and in Puljujarvi's case that is a very flimsy argument. And for whatever reason you want to completely ignore Matthews 17 year old season. If you constantly harp on the fact that these two are big games players, and that is why you like them more, you are directly inferring that Matthews isn't a big game player, which has been shown to be incorrect. You completely ignore the possibility that the reason these two are described as clutch from the U-20 WJC, is due significantly to the accomplishments of the Rantanen and Kapanen line. All 3 players went pointless in the semi-finals. Its actually ridiculous to judge these guys off single elimination games in regards to clutchness. Laine's playoffs were impressive, and there is some claim there, but with Puljujarvi you are significantly reaching.
At first I thought that the draft will go so that a team needing a Toews type franchise center would pick Matthews #1 and a team needing a scorer would pick Laine as #1 but when I have seen how a 18 years old guy took his team to his back and carried it through playoffs as MVP I would see him as overall 1st pick. BPA.
Sorry Matthews, on another year you would be a sure #1 pick but now there is too good player against you.
Sorry Matthews, on another year you would be a sure #1 pick but now there is too good player against you.
The Winter Soldier
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Because it is. Unless you are not paying attention to games and tournaments these 3 players played in this year. Or one has this crazy bias for Matthews. That they continue to ignore properly weighted samples.
The Finns have been more clutch in the biggest games this year WJC, Under 18, and Finnish championship playoffs than Matthews.
Now this doesn't make Matthews a bad prospect, he is clearly top 3. But to simply ignore this year, their most recent, and most important performances in their draft year. Is nothing but folly on your part.
Someone posted to you, all you seem to be focused on is comparing these 3 when they were 15-16. Sooner than later, that argument becomes a tired one. And tired has the left town.
No, I pointed out something that happen 12 months ago. And you still won't even acknowledge neither of the Finns would of been viewed as that clutch at the WJC if it wasn't for Kapenen and Rantanen in the semi's and finals. So really, the opportunity to display what you call clutch was out of their control. I think Matthews is the better prospect, I think most sources agree with me on this, Laine may have a slightly higher ceiling. But I'm actually comparing what Matthews did at 17, to what Puljujarvi did at 17, I don't think that is going back too far, unless of course you want to ignore it to fit your narrative.
Me too
Who really wins if Laine ends up in Edmonton are hockey fans, him and McDavid would be a special combination we only see a few times in our lifetime.
I'm sure lots of Finnish fans would become Oiler fans like back in the Kurri days.
Being a Tappara fan since beginning of 80`s that would certainly have me on the Oil bandwagon. I follow Florida because of Barkov. His dad was also a hell of an player for Tappara. Now Laine looks like the second coming of Kurri/Selänne and whatever team lands him I will also be cheering for. Best fit woulf ofc be Oilers because of McD. Gretzky-Kurri reborn...
snipes
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- Dec 28, 2015
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Yup
It would make the pain of the last while all worth it. Hopefully the hockey gods bless us and make it happen. When Edmonton produces a winner we are among the best crowds in the NHL.
kelsier
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Where on earth did I point out Laine having more marketing value in Toronto? He does have more marketing value compared to any other prospect in this draft due to nationality. Wether that applies to Toronto I haven't got a clue. Made a personal statement regarding preference of Laine not ending up there and that wasn't being objective - neither was it meant to be. What comes to which one of the two will be better player, well you can call me a homer if you like but I can honestly say Laine has shown a lot more than Matthews and not only that, but he's proven to be a winner by two high stages already this season alone while being the leading player both times.
The point stands, if Matthews still holds and edge it comes down to three factors:
1) Nationality (marketing value)
2) Position
3) Scout updates not being up to date (I'd imagine teams not changing their list of preference on a short term notice)
We will know more as the draft day closes by and the scales will even up, no doubt about it.
7 of the 14 teams with a shot to draft Matthews are Canadian, and there is very little evidence an American prospect will drastically alter ticket sales, flat out, winning does. Ovi and Crosby are the biggest stars in the USA right now in regards to hockey neither are american, in Chicago, Kane is no bigger a star than Toews and Keith. McKenzie has said he still has Matthews one according to scouts as of yesterday. Laine's a great prospect, but the marketing value argument is ridiculous. Teams draft the best player, and would rarely undermine their GM and staff by imposing a pick on them, the only place this might be true is Arizona.
teravaineSAROS
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No one needs to talk about Laine being clutch at the international level. He was exceptional in the Liiga playoffs and won MVP in a league that's by far a lot tougher than NLA (what he did in the Liiga playoffs is 929494 times more impressive than what he did in the wjc, anyone who saw the games would agree). and winning MVP in the playoffs against men is more impressive than other teens so what does US producing more stars have to do with that?
recency bias? it's a draft, they're teenagers who develop at different rates so recency is more important than anything, otherwise you'll have a bunch of early bloomers be drafted first.
I'm not downplaying Matthews, he's great. i'm just questioning arguments here which is what these forums are for so i dont see the problem
kelsier
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You seem to be lacking the ability to view the whole picture it seems. For those 14 teams you mentioned which have the odds for the #1 pick, Matthews has been the guy for the last two years as he's been touted as the next best thing. Where as Laine has just been quietly making a name for himself and coming out of nowhere with limited exposure due to playing in European rinks throughout his short career. To suggest the nationality and pre-hype doesn't hold much value is pure non-sense. Why nationality then? Obviously Laine didn't play in the NA jr leagues so he's been unknown to most fans out there that do not actually pay much attension what comes to following hockey prospects, especially European ones. Not to mention, it's much easier to sell a player to fans, who's born and raised in North America compared to a kid coming from Europe. Matthews holds more marketing value, like it or not.
gwh
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The marketing value is greatly understated:
This year Koivu (Min C) did one TV interview for minnesota. Suter did a dozen and Parise at least 20. Pominville was on TV several times. Granlund was not even on telly between the periods. Niederreiter either.
Native english speakers that talk a lot sell shirts and the team brand. NHL is business.
This year Koivu (Min C) did one TV interview for minnesota. Suter did a dozen and Parise at least 20. Pominville was on TV several times. Granlund was not even on telly between the periods. Niederreiter either.
Native english speakers that talk a lot sell shirts and the team brand. NHL is business.
+1
No matter how objectively one tries to push it, it's impossible to not notice how much more dominant of a player Laine is. I sure as hell tried, because I wanted to make sense of the "Matthews will still be picked 1st overall, no question" argument. Matthews looks like a fantastic player, but Laine looks like an all-out monster in a much tougher league. If Matthews does get picked 1st, it will be because of the things you mentioned, and not a sensible decision at all considering the "always BPA" way of doing things in the first rounds.
swift
Registered User
When this thread was started, Matthews was the clear favorite to be picked 1st. If he still is, it's bonkers. Laine is playing crazy good. What does he have to do to earn the consideration to be picked first? Take the Finns to the final in the Worlds and score a hattrick? Or would Matthews still be the consensus No. 1 pick? 
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