Auston Matthews vs Patrik Laine

[Tramux]

I personally like Laine more but as a GM I would probably draft Matthews 1OA if my team had not elite center already. What is the last team that have won SC without one of the best centers in the league? I think NJD in 2002-03

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

Why bother, we know from near history this; even Laine carries his team to the end meanwhile Matthews can't he didn't perform better just because

If Matthews performs better than Laine will that result in you changing your own opinion about Laine?

 

[93LEAFS]

Well this thread is titled Matthews or Laine. So yes you knew very well Matthews is 7 to 8 + months older than both Finns. As for comparing a 17 year old Matthews to a then 15 year old Puljujarvi in last year's tournament. If you want to keep on dwelling on last year, and ignoring the points posters have brought up this year, a more recent and weighted sample of championship games. Keep on trying to sell those points.

BTW how many goals did Matthews score in elimination games this year? If you want to count last year's gold medal game let's include them too. Since you are trying to portray him as being equals to Laine and Puljujarvi in big games.

And again no one is saying Matthews is a bad prospect. He is a great prospect, but either you are intentionally being evasive here or you simply do not understand, that most of us here are talking recent sample of games for player evaluation. Where you are recycling old samples where Matthews did not even score in the gold medal game last year. And trying to equate that as equal to what 17 year olds Laine and Pujujarvi did this year.

Yet you ignore what Matthews did at 15 in a gold medal game, then use that to talk about Puljujarvi's accomplishments. And what I'm saying is that we have such a small sample size of elimination games it doesn't matter, and that you are overweighting it, and you constantly brought up Puljujarvi in contrast to Matthews in big game, so don't defer to the title of the thread now, like it dictates all discussion. And Puljujarvi was 16 at last years U-18, I don't know if you are bad at math or something, but what you are claiming is just flat out incorrect. He never even played in the tourny at 15. And in two elimination games (3 if you want to count the Bronze, but NA teams rarely show up for that) Matthews had a combined 3 goals. Guess how many goals Laine got in 3 elimination games, 3. Puljujarvi had 0 at the under 20-WJC. But don't let actual facts get in the way.

You are drastically overrating such a small sample size, on something that rarely carrier over from level to level its ridiculous. The only real conclusion you can draw from Laine's performance is that he doesn't shy away from the moment, and I don't think we've seen enough from Matthews to claim he does, and most evidence would show he doesn't.

 

[CanadienShark]

I'm comparing Laine's style right now to the style Kovalchuk played in the NHL, pretty similar if you ask me.

Kovalchuk


Laine


Both are big scoring wingers who had big shots and great puck skills along with fantastic skating. While Ovechkin does have these qualities too, he also has a big physical edge which Laine (Like Kovalchuk) seems to be missing.

It certainly explains why I'm becoming a huge Laine fan. Kovalchuk is my 3rd favourite player of all time, and the only of those three that I actually watched his entire career (I was a little kid/not alive when Lemieux and Fedorov were at their best).

 

[behemolari]

If Matthews performs better than Laine will that result in you changing your own opinion about Laine?

If Matthews performs better I admit he was better than Laine, just like before WJCs I stated 'wanna see someone tear it up' it's same again,

If Matthews had teared WJC and NLA playoffs we hadn't this discussion at the first place, he didn't, but instead Laine did..

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Yet you ignore what Matthews did at 15 in a gold medal game, then use that to dismiss Puljujarvi's accomplishments. And what I'm saying is that we have such a small sample size of elimination games it doesn't matter, and that you are overweighting it, and you constantly brought up Puljujarvi in contrast to Matthews in big game, so don't defer to the title of the thread now, like it dictates all discussion. And Puljujarvi was 16 at last years U-18, I don't know if you are bad at math or something, but what you are claiming is just flat out incorrect. He never even played in the tourny at 15. And in two elimination games (3 if you want to count the Bronze, but NA teams rarely show up for that) Matthews had a combined 3 goals. Guess how many goals Laine got in 3 elimination games, 3. Puljujarvi had 0 at the under 20-WJC. But don't let actual facts get in the way.

You are drastically overrating such a small sample size, on something that rarely carrier over from level to level its ridiculous. The only real conclusion you can draw from Laine's performance is that he doesn't shy away from the moment, and I don't think we've seen enough from Matthews to claim he does, and most evidence would show he doesn't.

Now the convenient excuse is the sample size because it does not fit the argument. The samples we have this year are what most scouts look at. There is a reason why Laine has risen in scout's eyes according to Bob Mckenzie. Does he have an agenda for reporting this?

You want more samples. How many goals or points did Matthews score for Zurich in their elimination game. I will save you the time. Zero.

Now again, no one is saying Matthews is nothing but a great prospect. But we are comparing him to Laine and Puljujarvi. Who had big games in their penultimate games in the gold medal game at the WJC, the under 18, and the championship game yesterday and this year. Both were named MVP's for the game and the Kurri award for the playoffs.

Matthews will likely go number 1, I would not be surprised if this happens. But again, you are either being intentionally evasive by not recognizing just which players have excelled more in bigger games as has been pointed out to you by many posters here.

 

[X66]

You are drastically overrating such a small sample size, on something that rarely carrier over from level to level its ridiculous.

ONLY when it's convenient. Same thing with center vs wingers, age difference, 'clutch situations', all used only when it's convenient for the poster. Too many inconsistencies, unfortunately.

I still lean towards Matthews here, wouldn't mind either one though.

 

[X66]

If Matthews performs better I admit he was better than Laine, just like before WJCs I stated 'wanna see someone tear it up' it's same again,

If Matthews had teared WJC and NLA playoffs we hadn't this discussion at the first place, he didn't, but instead Laine did..

7 goals and 11 points in 7 games, that's pretty damn good.

I'm not going to hold a 4 game playoff sample against the guy, nor would I use that 7 game WJC to boost him.

 

[SampoHoitaa]

If Matthews performs better than Laine will that result in you changing your own opinion about Laine?

I'll jump in here, sorry.

I actually think that if Matthews performs even slightly better than Laine in the WHC there will be no more discussions about who goes 1st (not sure if there really is now). Laine on the other hand will need a monster tournament in order to really challenge Matthews and even then, the center card will be constantly played by every drafting agency. Plus it's really not even a card to play, I mean some teams just REALLY need a center badly. Like CBJ, why in the heck they would choose Laine? They are short in the middle.

Then again I feel like some posters here are very arrogant when comparing these two. On both sides really. I get the feeling that some people won't change their current opinion no matter what happens. Fan boys that is.

I think that Laine is an exceptional player but I have to go with the current consensus. However, unlike some posters here I'm willing to change my mind. And it really comes down to who will get the 1st pick anyway.

Now if we take the center card out of the equation and just think about which of these is the better player as a whole. I have no answer. I haven't seen enough of Matthews to draw any conclusions. What I can tell you is that Laine is pretty darn impressive.

Anyway, I would like to see more discussion about which of them is actually a better hockey player right now. Hopefully from someone that actually has followed them both closely.

 

[93LEAFS]

Now the convenient excuse is the sample size because it does not fit the argument. The samples we have this year are what most scouts look at. There is a reason why Laine has risen in scout's eyes according to Bob Mckenzie. Does he have an agenda for reporting this?

You want more samples. How many goals or points did Matthews score for Zurich in their elimination game. I will save you the time. Zero.

Now again, no one is saying Matthews is nothing but a great prospect. But we are comparing him to Laine and Puljujarvi. Who had big games in their penultimate games in the gold medal game at the WJC, the under 18, and the championship game yesterday. Both were named MVP's for the game and the Kurri award for the playoffs.

Matthews will likely go number 1, I would not be surprised if this happens. But again, you are either being intentionally evasive by not recognizing just which players have excelled more in bigger games as has been pointed out to you by many posters here.

You are just blatantly ignoring facts at this point. You ask me how many goals Matthews got in elimination games this year and I told you. He had the exact same amount of goals in the elimination level of the only tournament they were both at and Puljujarvi had 0. Matthews had more goals than Pulju when comparing across age groups at U-18 WJC. How am I ignoring sample size, what I've said all along is that it is way too small to draw any conclusions from. You are the one saying that 3 goals in the elimination level of the WJC makes Laine a much better player than Matthews under pressure.

My main point was I don't believe clutchness carries from one level to another, and can usually be explained by other factors. The only fear is players cowering from the moment, we have no evidence of this being at all true with Matthews.

Calling me evasive is hilarious, you've ignored multiple facts. Most scouts look at more than draft year, you seem to think only draft year matters, which is another ridiculous premise. And its not like Matthews has had a bad draft year, he's scored at an elite level in a men's league, and I don't think any reasonable scout is going to hold the Zurich exit against him.

 

[behemolari]

7 goals and 11 points in 7 games, that's pretty damn good.

I'm not going to hold a 4 game playoff sample against the guy, nor would I use that 7 game WJC to boost him.

Laine was statistically better 7goals 13 points in 7 games. Did you watched team USA playoffs at all? He was non-factor, faded so bad there is absolutely no reason to keep him locked no.1 after that, then same again happens with his NLA team (you can ignore postseason games if you like).

He didn't played terrible but nowhere near Laine's level. Im ready to see him bounce back at the IIHF, if he finally shows up at quarter/semis/finals that's a whole different story again.

Wouldn't be surprised if he chokes again.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

7 goals and 11 points in 7 games, that's pretty damn good.

I'm not going to hold a 4 game playoff sample against the guy, nor would I use that 7 game WJC to boost him.

Laine had 8 goals in 7 games at age 16 in the same tournament, and apparently according to the Finnish posters here. He was not 100 % last year.

Matthews was impressive, but let's not forget he was one day removed from being 2015 draft eligible. If he had been born just one day earlier. He would have been in last year's draft.

If one wants to make a case he this is basically his draft +1 year. It can be certainly be made.

 

[93LEAFS]

Did you watched team USA playoffs at all? He was non-factor, faded so bad there is absolutely no reason to keep him locked no.1 after that, then same again happens with his NLA team (you can ignore postseason games if you like).

He didn't played terrible but nowhere near Laine's level. Im ready to see him bounce back at the IIHF, if he finally shows up at quarter/semis/finals that's a whole different story again.

Wouldn't be surprised if he chokes again.

I think you missed his hat trick vs the Czech's, and one bad game doesn't change much. Have fun labelling Matthews a choker, like you have.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Performances in individuals games, in particular events like the WJC or even WCs are unlikely to sway scouts. They don't look at things in a vacuum like certain posters do. They certainly don't write off a player or consider them a career long "choker" (which is laughable).

 

[X66]

Laine was statistically better 7goals 13 points in 7 games. Did you watched team USA playoffs at all? He was non-factor, faded so bad there is absolutely no reason to keep him locked no.1 after that, then same again happens with his NLA team (you can ignore postseason games if you like).

He didn't played terrible but nowhere near Laine's level. Im ready to see him bounce back at the IIHF, if he finally shows up at quarter/semis/finals that's a whole different story again.

Wouldn't be surprised if he chokes again.

I wouldn't label him a choke OR a non-factor.

Laine had a terrific tournament, but you'd have to imagine that playing at home with players like Aho and Puljujarvi helped a ton as well.

I mean the US lost by 1 goal to a team that took the Finns to OT, and in the Semi's, it wasn't like Finland got what they needed from Laine against the Swedes...but it would be foolish to look at that one game in a short tournament.

Both players had excellent tournaments

 

[SampoHoitaa]

You are just blatantly ignoring facts at this point. You ask me how many goals Matthews got in elimination games this year and I told you. He had the exact same amount of goals in the elimination level of the only tournament they were both at and Puljujarvi had 0. Matthews had more goals than Pulju when comparing across age groups at U-18 WJC. How am I ignoring sample size, what I've said all along is that it is way too small to draw any conclusions from. You are the one saying that 3 goals in the elimination level of the WJC makes Laine a much better player than Matthews under pressure....

Just out of curiosity how much value will you give to the performances of these 2 in the WHC? I want you to answer this before the tournament starts so we all now your stance on this in the post tournament conversations.

 

[93LEAFS]

Just out of curiosity how much value will you give to the performances of these 2 in the WHC? I want you to answer this before the tournament starts so we all now your stance on this in the post tournament conversations.

Not too much, again its a fairly small tournament. And as I've said all along, I'd be ecstatic to get Laine, the big drop off for me is falling out of the top 2, and falling out of the top 3 is terrible. I've said multiple times there are legitimate arguments for Laine to go 1, I just think the whole clutch argument is stupid, and of very little value. Ability to step up in the playoffs rarely carry's over from season to season, the only worry is a guy basically becomes shell shocked in clutch moments like Karl Malone or Chris Webber did, which there is no evidence of happening to Matthews. Now if Laine absolutely dominates a tournament with men and Matthews no-shows it, it may sway my opinion, but it would take a massive difference between them for me to dramatically alter my stance.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

You are just blatantly ignoring facts at this point. You ask me how many goals Matthews got in elimination games this year and I told you. He had the exact same amount of goals in the elimination level of the only tournament they were both at and Puljujarvi had 0. Matthews had more goals than Pulju when comparing across age groups at U-18 WJC. How am I ignoring sample size, what I've said all along is that it is way too small to draw any conclusions from. You are the one saying that 3 goals in the elimination level of the WJC makes Laine a much better player than Matthews under pressure.

My main point was I don't believe clutchness carries from one level to another, and can usually be explained by other factors. The only fear is players cowering from the moment, we have no evidence of this being at all true with Matthews.

Calling me evasive is hilarious, you've ignored multiple facts. Most scouts look at more than draft year, you seem to think only draft year matters, which is another ridiculous premise. And its not like Matthews has had a bad draft year, he's scored at an elite level in a men's league, and I don't think any reasonable scout is going to hold the Zurich exit against him.

Evasive is the correct term, failure to recognize recent samples or examples of all 3 players as posted for comparison. They have been posted here by me and other posters. At this point I am just repeating posts and points that are ignored.

The Finns have been far more clutch this year than Matthews in gold and championship games. We are using what sample that is available to us. This is not revolutionary scouting. WJC, Finnish and Swiss playoffs, and WJC under 18.

I will leave it at that as I am sure there will be no response to this or the 17 year argument you also declined to reply to. BTW incase you forgot. Laine just turned 18 a week ago.

 

[kabidjan18]

Evasive is the correct term, failure to recognize recent samples or examples of all 3 players as posted for comparison. They have been posted here by me and other posters. At this point I am just repeating posts and points that are ignored.

The Finns have been far more clutch this year than Matthews in gold and championship games. We are using what sample that is available to us. This is not revolutionary scouting. WJC, Finnish and Swiss playoffs, and WJC under 18.

I will leave it at that as I am sure there will be no response to this or the 17 year argument you also declined to reply to. BTW incase you forgot. Laine just turned 18 a week ago.

Laine may be good, but he is not clutch and neither is Matthews somehow a choker based on one tournament...the idea of a choker or a clutch player in and of itself has no strong backing, there's no reason to pick one over the other because of an illusion of how they will perform in the last 24 seconds of a game...

 

[93LEAFS]

Evasive is the correct term, failure to recognize recent samples or examples of all 3 players as posted for comparison. They have been posted here by me and other posters. At this point I am just repeating posts and points that are ignored.

The Finns have been far more clutch this year than Matthews in gold and championship games. We are using what sample that is available to us. This is not revolutionary scouting. WJC, Finnish and Swiss playoffs, and WJC under 18.

I will leave it at that as I am sure there will be no response to this or the 17 year argument you also declined to reply to. BTW incase you forgot. Laine just turned 18 a week ago.

Lets just ignore the season Matthews had where he scored at a rate in the NLA of many NHLers who played there in 2013. What Matthews did at USNDP was amazing and many view that as the best season of any player there, including Kessel, Kane and Eichel, he led his team to gold at the WJC U-18. I'm not ignoring your points, I'm saying you are flat out overrating them. You ignore that a big reason for the difference in gold medal games was largely out of both players control (The fins other lines stepped up, USA's didn't), they had the same amount of goals in elimination games at the WJC. But whatever, actually ignore evidence, its clear there is no point in even attempting to acknowledge these points. I hope your arguments on clutchness will stay consistent, I know mine will.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Laine may be good, but he is not clutch and neither is Matthews somehow a choker based on one tournament...the idea of a choker or a clutch player in and of itself has no strong backing, there's no reason to pick one over the other because of an illusion of how they will perform in the last 24 seconds of a game...

It was never said by this poster that Matthews was a choker. Infact I did say his stats were impressive last year in the under 18 and this year in the under 20.

He has been good in playoff games or medal games. I did not see the Zurich playoffs but I will take it on good authority that his play was good. 3 assists in 4 games. But we also have to look at how he played in the elimination game where the favoured Zurich team lost 3-0. and juxtapose this to the game Laine played yesterday that ultimately won him the Kurri award as the playoff MVP.

Laine has been outstanding in the playoffs and has proven his mettle 2x this year in championship games. This is why Mckenzie's scouts have moved it less certain that Matthews is #1. Puljujarvi scored a hattrick in the under 18 gold medal game and looked like a man against boys this tournament despite still being 17.

These are the facts. So while this poster did not say any of these 3 terrific prospects were choker's. It is clear to any rational observer. The Finns were better in bigger games.

 

[93LEAFS]

It was never said by this poster that Matthews was a choker. Infact I did say his stats were impressive last year in the under 18 and this year in the under 20.

He has been good in playoff games or medal games. I did not see the Zurich playoffs but I will take it on good authority that his play was good. 3 assists in 4 games. But we also have to look at how he played in the elimination game where the favoured Zurich team lost 3-0. and juxtapose this to the game Laine played yesterday that ultimately won him the Kurri award as the playoff MVP.

Laine has been outstanding in the playoffs and has proven his mettle 2x this year in championship games. This is why Mckenzie's scouts have moved it less certain that Matthews is #1. Puljujarvi scored a hattrick in the under 18 gold medal game and looked like a man against boys this tournament despite still being 17.

These are the facts. So while this poster did not say any of these 3 terrific prospects were choker's. It is clear to any rational observer. The Finns were better in bigger games.

Except to use it as a factor to rank one over the other, you are clearly rating it as a recurable trait, which there is little evidence of.

 

[Snagari]

You ignore that a big reason for the difference in gold medal games was largely out of both players control (The fins other lines stepped up, USA's didn't), they had the same amount of goals in elimination games at the WJC. But whatever, actually ignore evidence, its clear there is no point in even attempting to acknowledge these points. I hope your arguments on clutchness will stay consistent, I know mine will.

It was extremely hard for other lines to step up because Matthews was playing in every other shift, atleast in the semi-final game against Russia.

 

[Mugzy97]

The only team I could see choosing Laine first would be Edmonton. Even then, they may just trade to second to get some more value out of it. Matthews will be chosen with the 1st.

 

[Flama Blanca]

If there ever was a clutch player. Then that is what Laine is. Just watch Liiga playoffs and what he did.