Auston Matthews vs Patrik Laine

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The Winter Soldier

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Except to use it as a factor to rank one over the other, you are clearly rating it as a recurable trait, which there is little evidence of.

Maybe it isn't a you. Which IMO is a very poor way to evaluate players to not weight championship or elimination games. But to others it is evidence or another important layer scouts draw on.

And frankly it is not your place to tell others what they use for prospect evaluation.

BTW since we are at it. Let's get an admission by you when you were comparing Matthews 17 year old stats to Laine's last night. Laine was actually 16 not 17. Just want to correct that inaccuracy.
 

Stavros

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Laine has had every bit as impressive season on paper as Matthews. It will be interesting WHC as they will play against some of the best players of the world.
 

93LEAFS

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Maybe it isn't a you. Which IMO is a very poor way to evaluate players to not weight championship or elimination games. But to others it is evidence or another important layer scouts draw on.

And frankly it is not your place to tell others what they use for prospect evaluation.

BTW since we are at it. Let's get an admission by you when you were comparing Matthews 17 year old stats to Laine's last night. Laine was actually 16 not 17. Just want to correct that inaccuracy.
Ummm, I never did that, I acknowledged he was 16 the whole time. But have fun, trying to poke holes in my argument. I actually compared what Matthews did at 16 in the gold medal game to what Laine did at 16 in a gold medal game. But whatever, I can say whatever I want within reason here, and call rankings other people put out as absurd as long as I have valid reasons behind it. And I weight, them but not significantly more than other games, in the WJC it matters a bit because there tends to be a jump in competition between the Latvia's, Denmarks and the usual contenders. IF YOU DON'T LIKE THIS PUT ME ON IGNORE.

And how bout you admit you have been factually incorrect regarding ages multiple times in this thread. You said Puljujarvi was 15 at the last U-18 WJC which is just flat out wrong.

The lack of points in big games also didn't seem to hurt your rankings of Barzal or Strome last year. You have an amazing record for consistency.......
 

SanDogBrewin

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Laine was statistically better 7goals 13 points in 7 games. Did you watched team USA playoffs at all? He was non-factor, faded so bad there is absolutely no reason to keep him locked no.1 after that, then same again happens with his NLA team (you can ignore postseason games if you like).

He didn't played terrible but nowhere near Laine's level. Im ready to see him bounce back at the IIHF, if he finally shows up at quarter/semis/finals that's a whole different story again.

Wouldn't be surprised if he chokes again.

Yah Matthews choked :shakehead:laugh:
 

SanDogBrewin

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Looks like we can finally compare Laine and Matthews equally when the WHC begins.
Maybe we already see them both playing against each other 3rd of May when Fin and Usa play exhibition game in Finland.

If Matthews outplays Laine in the exhibition or if they meet in the elimination rounds of the WHC or vice versa, Laine out produces Matthews, it won't change my mind on how I view either player.
 

Snagari

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If Matthews outplays Laine in the exhibition or if they meet in the elimination rounds of the WHC or vice versa, Laine out produces Matthews, it won't change my mind on how I view either player.

So is your mind settled for this tournament only, for next season also or how long? Why it wouldn't change your view?
 

The Winter Soldier

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Ummm, I never did that, I acknowledged he was 16 the whole time. But have fun, trying to poke holes in my argument. I actually compared what Matthews did at 16 in the gold medal game to what Laine did at 16 in a gold medal game. But whatever, I can say whatever I want within reason here, and call rankings other people put out as absurd as long as I have valid reasons behind it. And I weight, them but not significantly more than other games, in the WJC it matters a bit because there tends to be a jump in competition between the Latvia's, Denmarks and the usual contenders. IF YOU DON'T LIKE THIS PUT ME ON IGNORE.

And how bout you admit you have been factually incorrect regarding ages multiple times in this thread. You said Puljujarvi was 15 at the last U-18 WJC which is just flat out wrong.

The lack of points in big games also didn't seem to hurt your rankings of Barzal or Strome last year. You have an amazing record for consistency.......

Did you not make a post saying citing what a tournament the under 18, 12 months ago? Where you cited Matthews at age 17, then you posted to comparing Matthews to Puljujarvi at 17, while being evasive about Laine? If I misunderstood then please clarify what you meant there. Since Laine and Puljujarvi are 7 and 8 months younger than Matthews, do you factor these things in to your analysis. Matthews is one day removed from being a 2015 draft pick.

Also you already have a track record here of stating untruths. You labelled me as saying Matthews was a choker. Where I asked you multiple times to produce a quote that I did. You could not.

If there is none, then just say sorry, and admit I didn't, since I try to engage in honest discussions here. Since there was no quote. It would look better on you here if you actually admitted I never said this.

As for this topic, and how it started. Laine, Puljujarvi, Matthews. Big games. Who was better?

If you want me to spell it out and compare championship elimination games off the top of my head. As most are focusing on this year, and how the prospects are trending now.

Matthews
- Under 20 elimation game Russia 0 points. Age 18
- Zurich playoffs game 4 elimination game. 0 points

Puljujarvi
- Under 18 gold medal game. 3 goals. Age 17
- Under 20 gold medal game. 2 Assists. Age 17
MVP of for the gold medal under 18 game.
Most Valuable Player WJC under 18

Laine
-Under 20 gold medal game 1 goal, 1 assist. Age 17
-Finnish Championship deciding game 1 goal
Jari Kurri Trophy for playoff MVP.
The youngest player to win MVP of the World Junior Championship.
 

SanDogBrewin

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I haven't been on this thread for a while because the bias over Matthews is unreal amongst some NA posters whose names I'm not going to mention. You are going to say I'm biased as well so what ever?

Let's just wait till the FIN-USA, 3rd of May game where both of these players are going to be and see how they will perform. You guys are putting a lot of expectations on Matthews with this hype, so I expect him to perform in that manner as well and Laine only needs to do what he has been doing in every single game, which is being superb. Matthews has a lot to prove, while Laine just has to keep his level.

We haven't seen Matthews in a long time while Laine has been pulling of these miracles game after game so this puts a lot of question marks on Matthews.

The scouts don't have any question marks and I don"t think an exhibition game is going to change any minds.
 

Alexandrov

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Any idea what position will Matthews play in team USA? Scoring line center or perhaps a depth guy? I think Laine will get middle 6 duties since the Finnish team isn't amazing.
 

93LEAFS

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Did you not make a post saying citing what a tournament the under 18, 12 months ago? Where you cited Matthews at age 17, then you posted to comparing Matthews to Puljujarvi at 17, while being evasive about Laine? If I misunderstood then please clarify what you meant there. Since Laine and Puljujarvi are 7 and 8 months younger than Matthews, do you factor these things in to your analysis. Matthews is one day removed from being a 2015 draft pick.

Also you already have a track record here of stating untruths. You labelled me as saying Matthews was a choker. Where I asked you multiple times to produce a quote that I did. You could not.

If there is none, then just say sorry, and admit I didn't, since I try to engage in honest discussions here. Since there was no quote. It would look better on you here if you actually admitted I never said this.

As for this topic, and how it started. Laine, Puljujarvi, Matthews. Big games. Who was better?

If you want me to spell it out and compare championship elimination games off the top of my head. As most are focusing on this year, and how the prospects are trending now.

Matthews
- Under 20 elimation game Russia 0 points. Age 18
- Zurich playoffs game 4 elimination game. 0 points

Puljujarvi
- Under 18 gold medal game. 3 goals. Age 17
- Under 20 gold medal game. 2 Assists. Age 17
MVP of for the gold medal under 18 game.
Most Valuable Player WJC under 18

Laine
-Under 20 gold medal game 1 goal, 1 assist. Age 17
-Finnish Championship deciding game 1 goal
Jari Kurri Trophy for playoff MVP.


The youngest player to win MVP of the World Junior Championship.
I will admit you never outright called Matthews a choker, what I have said you are inferring he is not a big game player, by using that to justify placing them both above Matthews. Which I think given all the evidence is absolutely ridiculous, the only worry is if guys melt down under pressure, there is no evidence of that with Matthews (see Karl Malone or Chris Webber), he has stepped up before. The championship game argument from this year is absolutley ridiculous, because the reasons one played in a final and the other didn't largely came down to the contributions of their teams 2nd line, which you continually ignore. All 3 went pointless in the semi finals. Matthews had the exact same amount of goals as Laine in the elimination portion of the U-20 WJC, which again, you continually ignore and then changed the argument to championship games.

Okay, this is getting ridiculous, you've gone back to edit posts where you were factually incorrect, but never even admitted it, then are on my case about changing or not acknowledging things. What I did say was comparing what Matthews did at 17 to what Puljujarvi did at 17 at the U-18 WJC, the other thing I did was compare the performance of Matthews at 16 to what Laine and Puljujarvi did at 16 in the gold medal game. I did reference he beat them the only time they played straight up. I will highlight the blow, so you don't try to take my words out of context again.

It is my place to call out your lack of consistency on a public forum, you don't like it put me on ignore. But lets choose to value Puljujarvi's hat trick in last night over Matthews prior performance in two gold medal games at this level. You know, where he beat the two Finns last year (and you can legitimately say but they were 16). Very true, but he also put up two goals in the finals as a 16 year old. They have far from proven they are much more clutch, particularly Puljujarvi. You want to claim they are clutch, they played well but you continually ignore that if it wasn't for Kapanen's wrap around this discussion wouldn't be happening (and they had no control over that), or the fact it was the Rantanen and Kapanen line that got them past Sweden. Unfortunatly for Matthew's when he didn't score in the Semi's vs Russia, the White-Dvorak line didn't step up for him. And who says draft years games carry by far the most weight? You, just so you can ignore prior accomplishments. Great consistency from thread to thread. So lets take the winger who steps up over the center who doesn't, good logic for Marner over Strome, what about Eichel? Matthews has been much more clutch than him and played at a similar level, both finns must be better than him. Or Boeser, he was extremely clutch this year, must have him over Matthews. Can't wait to see how the draft lottery plays out and see where you end up. I'm sure if Leafs draft second, Matthews will be the franchise center, and the finns will be just wingers....
And finally, when you were factually incorrect, not only did you not admit you were wrong, you just went back to change the post, like when you said I was comparing Matthew's at 17 to Puljujarvi, thankfully, I quoted what you said before you went back and edidted. So ya, I don't think you intend to have an honest discussion like you claim. You twist facts in a ridiculous way, argue on the fringes and don't even own up when you are wrong. Here's the post where I quoted what you said, which you have now edited.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=117531065&postcount=949

Edit: And lets not even get into the fact how you have flip flopped on Draft year vs Birth year, considering how many times you used it in Rantanen's defense vs either Marner or Nylander when it suited you.
 
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93LEAFS

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Any idea what position will Matthews play in team USA? Scoring line center or perhaps a depth guy? I think Laine will get middle 6 duties since the Finnish team isn't amazing.
He'll most likely get center minutes, pretty sure thats how they used Eichel last year. The US isn't brining a particularly strong team. North American teams really don't put much weight into this tournament usually, last year was a rarity where Canada brought a stacked team. USA has some recent college guys on the team I'm pretty sure again this year.
 

The Winter Soldier

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I will admit you never outright called Matthews a choker, what I have said you are inferring he is not a big game player, by using that to justify placing them both above Matthews. Which I think given all the evidence is absolutely ridiculous, the only worry is if guys melt down under pressure, there is no evidence of that with Matthews (see Karl Malone or Chris Webber), he has stepped up before. The championship game argument from this year is absolutley ridiculous, because the reasons one played in a final and the other didn't largely came down to the contributions of their teams 2nd line, which you continually ignore. All 3 went pointless in the semi finals. Matthews had the exact same amount of goals as Laine in the elimination portion of the U-20 WJC, which again, you continually ignore and then changed the argument to championship games.

Okay, this is getting ridiculous, you've gone back to edit posts where you were factually incorrect, but never even admitted it, then are on my case about changing or not acknowledging things. What I did say was comparing what Matthews did at 17 to what Puljujarvi did at 17 at the U-18 WJC, the other thing I did was compare the performance of Matthews at 16 to what Laine and Puljujarvi did at 16 in the gold medal game. I did reference he beat them the only time they played straight up. I will highlight the blow, so you don't try to take my words out of context again.


And finally, when you were factually incorrect, not only did you not admit you were wrong, you just went back to change the post, like when you said I was comparing Matthew's at 17 to Puljujarvi, thankfully, I quoted what you said before you went back and edidted. So ya, I don't think you intend to have an honest discussion like you claim. You twist facts in a ridiculous way, argue on the fringes and don't even own up when you are wrong. Here's the post where I quoted what you said, which you have now edited.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=117531065&postcount=949

For the record, I edited the age 8 mins after I posted that. It was a typo. I don't know what to tell you. There was no deception there. 8 mins elapsed when I read it and noticed it was not 16 but a 15. It happens. This is a lot different than quoting me saying that Matthews is a choker. Which I am thankful you have admitted you were not correct in that statement 48 hours later.

What I have said all along, and illustrated above. While Matthews has been good in the playoffs, he is not better than Laine or Puljujarvi have been this year. The most recent and valid snaphot we have to gauge the 3 prospects.

I never implied any player in this discussion as a chocker. This is maybe where you do not understand a juxtaposition of comparisons.

Laine/Puljujarvi A+ in big games this year. Matthews let's give him a B-.

No on is saying this is a large sample, no one is saying this is the only layer for analysis.

What most are saying, and you can include me in that group. History of of a player in a big game is a vital piece of information for scouts. Again, you think Mckenzie has an agenda when he now says his scouts have been swayed by Laine's recent big playoff? So yes it is important to most, and it is not your place to tell others what is important or not in prospects evaluation for these 3 players.

It's not hard to observe this layer of information.

Matthews
- Under 20 elimation game Russia 0 points. Age 18
- Zurich playoffs game 4 elimination game. 0 points

Puljujarvi
- Under 18 gold medal game. 3 goals. Age 17
- Under 20 gold medal game. 2 Assists. Age 17
MVP of for the gold medal under 18 game.
Most Valuable Player WJC under 18

Laine
-Under 20 gold medal game 1 goal, 1 assist. Age 17
-Finnish Championship deciding game 1 goal
Jari Kurri Trophy for playoff MVP.
 

93LEAFS

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For the record, I edited the age 8 mins after I posted that. It was a typo. I don't know what to tell you. There was no deception there. 8 mins elapsed when I read it and noticed it was not 16 but a 15. It happens. This is a lot different than quoting me saying that Matthews is a choker. Which I am thankful you have admitted you were not correct in that statement 48 hours later.

What I have said all along, and illustrated above. While Matthews has been good in the playoffs, he is not better than Laine or Puljujarvi have been this year. The most recent and valid snaphot we have to gauge the 3 prospects.

I never implied any player in this discussion as a chocker. This is maybe where you do not understand a juxtaposition of comparisons.

Laine/Puljujarvi A+ in big games this year. Matthews let's give him a B-.

No on is saying this is a large sample, no one is saying this is the only layer for analysis.

What most are saying, and you can include me in that group. History of of a player in a big game is a vital piece of information for scouts. Again, you think Mckenzie has an agenda when he now says his scouts have been swayed by Laine's recent big playoff? So yes it is important to most, and it is not your place to tell others what is important or not in prospects evaluation for these 3 players.

It's not hard to observe this layer of information.

Matthews
- Under 20 elimation game Russia 0 points. Age 18
- Zurich playoffs game 4 elimination game. 0 points

Puljujarvi
- Under 18 gold medal game. 3 goals. Age 17
- Under 20 gold medal game. 2 Assists. Age 17
MVP of for the gold medal under 18 game.
Most Valuable Player WJC under 18

Laine
-Under 20 gold medal game 1 goal, 1 assist. Age 17
-Finnish Championship deciding game 1 goal
Jari Kurri Trophy for playoff MVP.
You continually ignore Matthews game vs the Czech's and drastically change the sample size, when it suits you. And McKenzie said they were impressed by Laine's play, as he played better in the playoffs than the regular season (which is 100% valid), they did not use it to claim he was more clutch than Matthews. Which is the main point of your argument. Laine showed what he was capable in the playoffs, which is being around a ppg or more player at the Liiga level, I don't think it was the clutch aspect that you cling to.

You edited after I pointed it out, then won't acknowledge it.

Edit: You also have completely ignored Laine's slow start to the playoffs, where in 5 games he got 2 points, which is worse than 3 in 4, so much of it is dependent on players its ridiculous to draw firm conclusions, which you are trying to do.
 

kabidjan18

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What most are saying, and you can include me in that group. History of of a player in a big game is a vital piece of information for scouts. Again, you think Mckenzie has an agenda when he now says his scouts have been swayed by Laine's recent big playoff? So yes it is important to most, and it is not your place to tell others what is important or not in prospects evaluation for these 3 players.
It's not about big game performance, big game performance doesn't mean much if anything. Scouts tend to like to weigh performance against opponent quality, so playoff performances are more indicative of what a player will see in the NHL because only qualified higher level teams are in the playoff, giving a scout an idea of how the player's performance will translate at the next level as well as rendering more representative statistics. NHL scouts care about how Patrik Laine performed against skilled, more representative competition in the playoff, not how he performed in the individual championship game.
 

teravaineSAROS

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Let me know when 93LEAFS is done talking about the WJC so we can compare Matthews performance with Laine's by far biggest and most relevant accomplishment: MVP of the Liiga playoffs

The performance he put on in the Liiga playoffs is something you'd only expect in a league like DEL or NLA
 

93LEAFS

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Let me know when 93LEAFS is done talking about the WJC so we can compare Matthews performance with Laine's by far biggest and most relevant accomplishment: MVP of the Liiga playoffs

The performance he put on in the Liiga playoffs is something you'd only expect in a league like DEL or NLA
Lets compare there 1st round performances to each other. I think what Laine did was impressive, but I think its more indicative of his quality as a player, than the claim he's this ultra clutch player. Matthews year was equally impressive. Practically all studies into relative scoring values of each league has Matthews season as more impressive than Laines. I don't think 13 games drastically changes much.
 

lawrence

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Let me know when 93LEAFS is done talking about the WJC so we can compare Matthews performance with Laine's by far biggest and most relevant accomplishment: MVP of the Liiga playoffs

The performance he put on in the Liiga playoffs is something you'd only expect in a league like DEL or NLA

He's done taking about the wjc.
 

The Winter Soldier

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It's not about big game performance, big game performance doesn't mean much if anything. Scouts tend to like to weigh performance against opponent quality, so playoff performances are more indicative of what a player will see in the NHL because only qualified higher level teams are in the playoff, giving a scout an idea of how the player's performance will translate at the next level as well as rendering more representative statistics. NHL scouts care about how Patrik Laine performed against skilled, more representative competition in the playoff, not how he performed in the individual championship game.

It is a layer of information that scouts will look at for the Big 3. That's all. It doesn't mean player A or player B or C are chokers per say. It is an indicator since all 3 played at the WJC at ages 18 and 17 for the 2 Finns. And again at the pro level where Laine excelled in the playoffs more. Perhaps the all 3 will play at the Worlds and we can have another recent layer of information to draw on. But in prospects boards, it is a snapshot in time. And this recent set of games adds to that snapshot. It's a fluid evolution.
 

QnebO

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Both guys probably in WHC. Interesting to see. Matthwes hype is on the roof and over, he should be clearly better player than Laine and obvious #1 pick, so lets see how it shows on ice.

BUT it has to be said, some times the team chemistry just doesnt work and things go bad in some tournaments, so he shouldn't like drop many places if he fails in this. Maybe this doesnt affect much but definitely interesting to see.
 

Murky

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Lets compare there 1st round performances to each other. I think what Laine did was impressive, but I think its more indicative of his quality as a player, than the claim he's this ultra clutch player. Matthews year was equally impressive. Practically all studies into relative scoring values of each league has Matthews season as more impressive than Laines. I don't think 13 games drastically changes much.

Matthews season with Zurich was 50 games long. 13 games is by no means irrelevant sample size.

You are brushing MVP of a major league aside much too lightly. MVP in play offs of a major men's league. Just let that sink a bit and, then compare it to what Matthews has accomplished so far.

I would still go with Matthews because he is a center, but the whole discussion has become all too partizan to be of any use.
 
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The Winter Soldier

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And let me say this also. If all 3 talents are equal. I too would take Matthews, no matter how impressed I was with Laine. One cannot be more unbiased than this.

Since I value a potential elite Center over a potential elite Winger.

Question is, are all things equal between the 2?
 

kabidjan18

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It is a layer of information that scouts will look at for the Big 3. That's all. It doesn't mean player A or player B or C are chokers per say. It is an indicator since all 3 played at the WJC at ages 18 and 17 for the 2 Finns. And again at the pro level where Laine excelled in the playoffs more. Perhaps the all 3 will play at the Worlds and we can have another recent layer of information to draw on. But in prospects boards, it is a snapshot in time. And this recent set of games adds to that snapshot. It's a fluid evolution.
You have no evidence for this...you're just guessing so. The quote you offered earlier was unrelated, now you're basing a statement off a dropped quote, you can't do that. I'm actually for Puljujarvi the most, then Laine, but you have no evidence the scouts are watching out for "chokers" or "clutch" players.

One game is one game, one game is not a layer and the rest of the playoffs are another layer.
 

The Winter Soldier

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You have no evidence for this...you're just guessing so. The quote you offered earlier was unrelated, now you're basing a statement off a dropped quote, you can't do that. I'm actually for Puljujarvi the most, then Laine, but you have no evidence the scouts are watching out for "chokers" or "clutch" players.

The most recent play we have are these set of games, and awards that players earned through the merit of their play. If this is not a layer of information than how do you evaluate players in big games?

Matthews
- Under 20 elimation game Russia 0 points. Age 18
- Zurich playoffs game 4 elimination game. 0 points

Puljujarvi
- Under 18 gold medal game. 3 goals. Age 17
- Under 20 gold medal game. 2 Assists. Age 17
MVP of for the gold medal under 18 game.
Most Valuable Player WJC under 18

Laine
-Under 20 gold medal game 1 goal, 1 assist. Age 17
-Finnish Championship deciding game 1 goal
Jari Kurri Trophy for playoff MVP.
 
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