All-Time Draft #12, Part IV

[God Bless Canada]

I'm here, pick in a second.

Remind me to address your definition of "a second."

 

[seventieslord]

Bernie Morris, RW/C

- 5'7", 145 lbs
- Stanley Cup (1917)
- Stanley Cup Finalist (1920, 1924)
- PCHA First All-Star Team (1916, 1917, 1918, 1919, 1922)
- PCHA Second All-Star Team (1921, 1923)
- Top-10 in PCHA Goals 7 times (1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 9th)
- Top-10 in PCHA Assists 6 times (1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 6th)
- Top-10 in PCHA Points 7 times (1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 7th)
- 6th in goals, 10th in assists, 7th in points in his one WCHL season (1924)
- Stanley Cup scoring leader (1917)
- 2nd in playoff scoring behind Howie Morenz (1924)
- SPHL Scoring Leader (1912)
- 175 Goals, 85 Assists, 260 Points in 217 Top-level games
- 19 goals, 10 assists, 29 Points in 22 Top-level playoff games

With the addition of Morris, the Mets had a team that was always a contender. Morris was a very versatile player and was used at both RW and Centre. He was a great favourite with the Seattle fans for eight years and they were sorry to see him traded to Calgary, where he had one more good year. He figured on four championship teams, played in three cup series and was on one Stanley Cup winner.

In his first two years at Seattle he centred a line of Jack Walker and ***** ****** with Frank Foyston at rover, alternating with Foyston at Rover. He was the scoring leader in his first year and in the 1917 cup series, when the Mets defeated Candiens three games to one, Bernie scored 14 goals in four games, the best effort since the days of Frank McGee.

The next year he centred ****** and Gord Roberts while in 1919 he played RW on a line with Foyston and ****** and the Mets won another championship... He was chosen for the PCHA All-Star Teams of 1918 and 1919... He had three more good years with Seattle centering Foyston and *** *****. Two of those years they were in the playoffs but lost to Vancouver.

He was traded to Calgary in 1924, where playing on a line with ***** ****** and Rusty Crawford he was a big factor in the Tigers winning the championship of the WCHL.

A goal-scoring star who helped bring the first Stanley Cup to the USA. He is sixth all-time in goals and fifth all-time in points in the PCHA.

The goal-scoring star of the year.

It was not because of his NHL career that Morris was a legend by the time he retired. He was one of the great players of the PCHA, winning a Stanley Cup with Seattle and establishing himself as one of the great scorers of the game. In the 1917 Finals, he scored 14 goals in the series against Montreal with the great Georges Vezina in the nets. He is not in the HHOF, but some consider his exploits comparable to other PCHA stars such as Cyclone Taylor, Tommy Dunderdale, Mickey MacKay, and Frank Foyston, who are in the Hall. Perhaps his exclusion is because of the 1919-20 season, which he spent in prison after some trouble with U.S. Authorities.

We don't know much about how Morris played, other than he was an offensive whiz. But I did find one passage describing him from his short time with Boston:

Bernie Morris, aggressive little center player...

Bernie Morris' Main claim to fame is being the star of the 1917 Stanley Cup Finals:

(game 1, 3-1 Habs) Bernie Morris was the best for Seattle, scoring three of their goals and keeping Vezina hopping with many other attempts.

(game 2, 6-1 Seattle) Bernie Morris and Frank Foyston were the stars.

(game 3, 4-1 Seattle) Bernie Morris was again the star for Seattle.

(game 4, 9-1 Seattle) Bernie Morris was sensational and easily the outstanding star. He scored six goals in this match, raising his total to 14 for the series, the best record since Frank McGee.

Morris seemed to be the principal fly in the Montreal ointment, the Seattle forward snagging six scores alone.

In all, Seattle outscored Montreal 23-11. Morris scored 14 goals,over half Seattle's total, and more than Montreal scored.

Morris' reputation as a draft dodger is not a reputation that was fairly earned:

The 1918-19 season was the fourth consecutive in which Morris led the Mets in scoring, and confidence in Seattle was high going into the two games, total goals playoff with Vancouver for the right to play for the Stanley Cup. A few hours before the start of the first game Bernie was informed that he was being sought by the authorities on charges of draft evasion. He immediately turned himself in, figuring that it was just a misunderstanding that would be cleared up quickly. He was wrong, and the subsequent investigation and court proceedings not only kept him out of the playoffs and 1919 Stanley Cup finals, but also resulted in his detention at Camp Lewis (now Fort Lewis) for almost a year, preventing him from taking the ice for the 1919-20 season. His name was finally cleared in the spring of 1920, just in time to make the trip east with the Mets for the 1920 Stanley Cup finals against Ottawa. Morris wasn't in game shape, only earning two assists in five games as the Mets lost the series three games to two.

The two assists in 5 games help to skew his playoff numbers downward, but The Trail indicates he was a spare in three of those games, and spares rarely set foot on the ice. Morris had 27 points in his other 17 playoff games.

There should be little doubt that Morris was the offensive catalyst behind the Seattle attack, and perhaps he was a better player than Frank Foyston. Take a look at Seattle's top-4 scorers in every season that Morris was in Seattle: (He missed 1920 thanks to his detention which apparently took a toll on him throughout the 1921 season as well) It is also important to note that Foyston and Morris were born less than one year apart so this is apples-to-apples.

Seattle Metropolitans Scoring Leaders, 1916-1919 and 1921-1923

Name | GP | G | A | Pts | PIM
1916 | | | | |
Morris, Bernie | 18 | 23 | 9 | 32 | 27
Walker, Jack | 18 | 13 | 6 | 19 | 6
Player A | 18 | 12 | 5 | 17 | 57
Foyston, Frank | 18 | 9 | 4 | 13 | 6
1917 | | | | |
Morris, Bernie | 24 | 37 | 17 | 54 | 17
Foyston, Frank | 24 | 36 | 12 | 48 | 51
Walker, Jack | 24 | 11 | 15 | 26 | 3
Player B | 23 | 9 | 12 | 21 | 45
1918 | | | | |
Morris, Bernie | 18 | 20 | 12 | 32 | 14
Roberts, Gord | 18 | 20 | 3 | 23 | 24
Foyston, Frank | 13 | 9 | 5 | 14 | 9
Player A | 17 | 7 | 6 | 13 | 46
1919 | | | | |
Morris, Bernie | 20 | 22 | 8 | 30 | 15
Foyston, Frank | 18 | 15 | 4 | 19 | 0
Player A | 18 | 11 | 5 | 16 | 37
Walker, Jack | 20 | 9 | 6 | 15 | 9
1921 | | | | |
Foyston, Frank | 23 | 26 | 4 | 30 | 10
Player C | 24 | 23 | 5 | 28 | 19
Morris, Bernie | 22 | 11 | 12 | 23 | 3
Walker, Jack | 22 | 6 | 4 | 10 | 6
1922 | | | | |
Morris, Bernie | 24 | 14 | 10 | 24 | 9
Foyston, Frank | 24 | 16 | 7 | 23 | 25
Player C | 24 | 16 | 2 | 18 | 27
Walker, Jack | 20 | 8 | 4 | 12 | 0
1923 | | | | |
Foyston, Frank | 30 | 20 | 8 | 28 | 21
Player C | 30 | 23 | 4 | 27 | 70
Morris, Bernie | 29 | 21 | 5 | 26 | 30
Walker, Jack | 29 | 13 | 10 | 23 | 4
Totals | | | | |
Morris, Bernie | 155 | 148 | 73 | 221 | 115
Foyston, Frank | 150 | 131 | 44 | 175 | 122
Walker, Jack | 134 | 60 | 45 | 105 | 28

Morris was scoring 9% goals per game and collecting 61% more assists per game than Foyston, even when you include his off-year. Jack Walker's totals are also included for comparison.

In fact, if you were to cherrypick Foyston's 7 best PCHA seasons (essentially dropping 1916 and 1918 and including 1920, when Morris was gone, and 1924, when Morris was in Calgary) he would have 156 goals and 44 assists for 200 points in 171 games, only approaching Morris' goalscoring rate but not even close in playmaking or total points.

As for how Morris was doing compared to the rest of the PCHA forwards and rovers throughout his career:

PCHA All-Time Forward Scoring Leaders

Name | DOB | HHOF? | GP | G | A | Pts | PIM | GPG | APG | PPG | Best 5 G | Best-5 A | Best-5 Pts
Cyclone Taylor | 1884 | Y | 130 | 159 | 104 | 263 | 65 | 1.22 | 0.80 | 2.02 | 1, 1, 1, 2, 2 | 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 | 1, 1, 1, 1, 1
Tommy Dunderdale | 1887 | Y | 241 | 194 | 60 | 254 | 494 | 0.80 | 0.25 | 1.05 | 1, 1, 1, 3, 6 | 3, 4, 5, 6, 6 | 1, 1, 3, 3, 5
Smokey Harris | 1890 | | 252 | 156 | 90 | 246 | 416 | 0.62 | 0.36 | 0.98 | 2, 3, 5, 6, 7 | 1, 1, 2, 2, 4 | 1, 2, 3, 4, 7
Mickey MacKay | 1894 | Y | 192 | 159 | 82 | 241 | 193 | 0.83 | 0.43 | 1.26 | 1, 1, 2, 5, 6 | 1, 2, 2, 2, 4 | 2, 2, 2, 3, 5
Bernie Morris | 1890 | | 167 | 155 | 76 | 231 | 137 | 0.93 | 0.46 | 1.38 | 1, 2, 2, 2, 4 | 1, 2, 2, 2, 3 | 1, 2, 2, 2, 4
Frank Foyston | 1891 | Y | 202 | 174 | 53 | 227 | 133 | 0.86 | 0.26 | 1.12 | 1, 1, 2, 3, 4 | 5, 5, 7, 8, 11 | 2, 3, 3, 4, 4
Eddie Oatman | 1889 | | 195 | 129 | 81 | 210 | 278 | 0.66 | 0.42 | 1.08 | 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 | 1, 3, 4, 4, 5 | 3, 3, 4, 4, 6
Jack Walker | 1888 | Y | 186 | 82 | 58 | 140 | 31 | 0.44 | 0.31 | 0.75 | 4, 7, 9, 9, 11 | 3, 4, 4, 4, 6 | 4, 8, 9, 9, 10
Frank Fredrickson | 1895 | Y | 105 | 93 | 46 | 139 | 83 | 0.89 | 0.44 | 1.32 | 1, 3, 4, 4, DNP | 1, 2, 2, 3, DNP | 1, 2, 2, 3, DNP
****** | 1885 | | 174 | 100 | 30 | 130 | 126 | 0.57 | 0.17 | 0.75 | 3, 5, 6, 8, 8 | 7, 9, 14, 15, 17 | 3, 8, 9, 9, 11
****** | 1895 | | 164 | 93 | 27 | 120 | 214 | 0.57 | 0.16 | 0.73 | 2, 2, 3, 6, 16 | 7, 9, 13, 15, 15 | 5, 5, 7, 7, 19
****** | 1889 | | 122 | 91 | 29 | 120 | 203 | 0.75 | 0.24 | 0.98 | 4, 6, 6, 8, 12 | 6, 9, 13, 15, 21 | 5, 6, 8, 9, 13
****** | 1888 | | 92 | 78 | 39 | 117 | 176 | 0.85 | 0.42 | 1.27 | 4, 5, 8, 8, 11 | 2, 2, 9, 11, 19 | 2, 3, 7, 8, 14

The per-game figures and best 5 seasons indicate that Bernie Morris is arguably both the 2nd-best goalscorer and playmaker in PCHA history, behind only the great Cyclone Taylor in both categories.

 

[seventieslord]

The Hamilton Bettmans select right-winger Billy Boucher

He's described as a "dangerous scorer" who "played a gritty style."

He has 4 top-tens in goals, and 2 top-tens in assists.
He led the league in PIMs twice, and has a Stanley Cup to his name.

Decent pick, but his 8th and 9th place seasons in goals were before the merger and are therefore more like a 15th and 17th. His two 2nd place finishes pre-merger are still great, though.

 

[Leafs Forever]

I think you need to edit some of that bio.

 

[seventieslord]

I think you need to edit some of that bio.

Yeah, I'm an idiot... I figured it out just before you did. Good heads-up play though.

 

[jarek]

Hockey history itself was violently ***** the moment guys like Morris and Dunderdale were inexplicably left out when detailed hockey records of other pre-merger legends were put together. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever that all these guys don't have a good deal of information available about them when there is so much on other pre-merger legends. We are seriously missing out on some of the very best players of that era, and it is quite painful to think about that. We are left with the question of just how good were these guys in an all-time context? I'd wager they'd all be in the top-200 easily if we just had more information to work with.

 

[Sturminator]

I really wonder who here actually saw Bill Barber play. I don't think this comparison would be made with a straight face by anyone who did.

Also, regarding the Alfredsson-Barber comparison, Alfredsson was the captain and best player for a very good team that, yes, underachieved in the playoffs. Barber was the third best player at most on his Cup-winning teams. It's not exactly a fair comparison. Give the Senators Bernie Parent and I think they win at least one Cup - 2003 and 2006 are both good possibilities. And when it comes to leadership, Barber had Bobby Clarke and others; not really comparable to Ottawa. I agree that you don't really count on Alfredsson for leadership in this format, but 1) his leadership might be looked on very differently if the Sens had ever had a good goalie in the playoffs, and 2) As players, Alfredsson's resume is every bit as good as Barber's.

The guy who is Alfredsson's owner made the comparison, not me. I'm not sure what is so "unfair" about cross-examining someone for making such a bold claim. All of the mights and maybes about Alfie's career are monopoly money in the ATD - god only knows how many "could have beens" we could throw around about bygone players if we got started with that kind of silly speculation. It's only because we've all seen Alfie play that anyone even attempts this kind of revisionism.

Alfie's questionable track record as captain is not, however, the biggest reason why he doesn't belong in Barber's category among ATD wingers. On ATD 1st lines, if you're going to put a lesser player into that situation, he needs to at least bring what it takes to match up with opposing 1st liners. Barber is a guy who you can put on the ice against a Richard or a Howe, and while he certainly won't win the matchup, he has the tools to effectively check both players, while contributing offensively to an ATD 1st unit in a secondary role. Considering that a healthy majority of history's greatest wingers (especially the power forwards) have played on the right side, a fast, physical 2-way left winger like Barber is extremely valuable in countering opponent's top line players. Alfredsson is soft and he plays the right wing. That, alone, puts him in a lesser category than Barber. The leadership issue is not the most important difference between the two.

 

[jarek]

I really wonder who here actually saw Bill Barber play. I don't think this comparison would be made with a straight face by anyone who did.



The guy who is Alfredsson's owner made the comparison, not me. I'm not sure what is so "unfair" about cross-examining someone for making such a bold claim. All of the mights and maybes about Alfie's career are monopoly money in the ATD - god only knows how many "could have beens" we could throw around about bygone players if we got started with that kind of silly speculation. It's only because we've all seen Alfie play that anyone even attempts this kind of revisionism.

Alfie's questionable track record as captain is not, however, the biggest reason why he doesn't belong in Barber's category among ATD wingers. On ATD 1st lines, if you're going to put a lesser player into that situation, he needs to at least bring what it takes to match up with opposing 1st liners. Barber is a guy who you can put on the ice against a Richard or a Howe, and while he certainly won't win the matchup, he has the tools to effectively check both players, while contributing offensively to an ATD 1st unit in a secondary role. Considering that a healthy majority of history's greatest wingers (especially the power forwards) have played on the right side, a fast, physical 2-way left winger like Barber is extremely valuable in countering opponent's top line players. Alfredsson is soft and he plays the right wing. That, alone, puts him in a lesser category than Barber. The leadership issue is not the most important difference between the two.

You are quickly becoming my favorite HFBoards poster. Excellent, excellent post.

 

[Jungosi]

Who takes a list?

 

[pitseleh]

I can.

 

[seventieslord]

Frank Patrick, D

- 5'11, 185 lbs.
- Stanley Cup (1915)
- Stanley Cup Finalist (1918, 1923)
- PCHA First Team All-Star (1912, 1914)
- PCHA Second Team All-Star (1917)
- PCHA Assist Leader (1913)
- Top-10 in PCHA scoring 4 times (2nd, 4th, 6th, 10th)
- 2nd in defense scoring in 1908 ECAHA and 1910 NHA
- PCHA defense scoring leader all 4 full PCHA seasons he played (1912, 1913, 1914, 1917)

As a player, Frank was revolutionary, much like Lester, who was then a star with the Montreal Wanderers. In the years prior to the Patricks' rise, the position of defense was used strictly to protect a team's own goal. Together, they were the first defensemen to rush with the puck and play an offensive role. The family moved to Nelson, British Columbia, where the brothers continued to win converts to their rushing style.

...When Frank was introduced as a Millionaire, he was called the best defenseman in the world.

...Patrick scored six goals in one game, establishing a record that has never been surpassed by NHL defenders. Frank was the leader, on the ice and in the boardroom, of a Vancouver team that won the Stanley Cup.

In his earlier days, Patrick was a top-notch defender... never shied away from the rough stuff... a strong skater whose stickhandling ability allowed him to indulge his fondness for the rush... Frank was a standout for teams such as the Montreal Victorias, Renfrew Creamery Kings and Vancouver Millionaires.

...with his team headed for a championship, he could not stay off the ice. He played a pocketful of games that year and when Si Griffis broke his leg, Patrick hopped over the boards yet again. He scored two goals as Vancouver swept the series from the Ottawa Senators in three straight games.

He was not the equal of Lester as a player but nevertheless he was a very good defenseman. A rugged and well-built athlete, he did not mind mixing it up with players like Joe Hall. He holds one record that has stood for 50 (now 90+) years, being the only player to score six goals in a game while playing defence... He performed as a regular player himself on the Vancouver team. He was good enough to make the PCHA All-Star Team... In 1915 he decided to devote full time to his official duties. When his team was headed for the championship he could not keep off the ice. He played a few games of the regular schedule and then when Si Griffis broke his leg, Patrick took over his defense position and swept Ottawa in three games, Patrick scoring two goals.

An outstanding defenseman and equally outstanding as a keen student of hockey

A superlative combination of athletic prowess, philosophical ingenuity and vision... a formidable puckhandler and rushing defenseman.

Some quotes from Frank's brief NHA days:

Lester and Frank Patrick delighted the railbirds with their beautiful stickhandling and skating.

For some reason, perhaps because of his deceptively quiet manner, Frank was always being "tested" by the opposition, and Newsy was one of the best testers in the business. On this particular occasion, it was Lalonde, frustrated at what he felt to be Frank's overenthusiastic checking, clubbed him on the side of the head with the butt of his stick, opening a gash beside the ear. Staggered by the force of the blow, Frank had wheeled, reeled, and while going down had expertly countered with an almost identical blow to the base of Lalonde's skull. Newsy also went down, and out. It may have been the first time that both protagonists in a two-man brawl were carted off the ice together.

Although Ernie Russell scored five times for the victors, Frank, who bagged a pair of goals for the losers, was named the outstanding player.

Through toe contest, Hall and Patrick had been exchanging pokes and chops, and already bloodied by a swipe from Patrick, Hall had had enough. After taking one more of these knocks, Joe went splashing up the ice after Frank, who hit him again. Hall stopped and struck back with his stick, slicing Frank's cheek. A lively scrap ensued, during which Hall received yet another nasty gash, this time over his eye.

More on the fight with Hall:

Bod Joe was constantly running at the Patricks... Frank had fought back, too hard, insisted Hall, who said that he had been crosschecked by patrick earlier, without a penalty being called... Hall was continually frustrated in his attempts to corner Frank Patrick. The latter was retaliating... Their lively scrap terminated when Hall dropped his stick and hit Patrick, who retaliated with a Jefferys punch

Patrick's attitude towards disrespect of his teammates:

One particular Haileybury fan was most obnoxious. Not only did he shout obscenities at the players as they skated close to the boards in the area where he was perched, he would also shove a stick through the wire screen in an attempt to poke them. Renfrew players had become aware of him and warned eachother of his habit, wondering aloud as to why such fans were allowed into the game. He seemd to be especially primed to goad Taylor and when The Cyclone was sandwiched between two Haileybury players, causing him to fall heavily to the ice, the fan jmped up next to the screen. He pounded on the mesh with his hands, shouting a stream of obscenities at the dazed and windless Cyclone. He moved along the boards, and reached the ara directly above where Taylor lay. He hovered over the writhing form, separated only by the screen which his face pushed against, the steady torrent of abuse continuing.

Frank Patrick, normally a mild-mannered individual, bent over his teammate, disgusted at the individual. Suddenly he wheeled, the butt-end of his stick smashing against the screen in the exact location of the insensitive screamer's face. A spatter of blood spurted from his nose and sprayed the screen, boards, and ice. The suddenly quieted disturber slowly slumped out of view.

Even after Frank Patrick butt-ended the foul-mouthed fan, Haileybury's Art Ross skated over towards him and surreptitiously offered his congratulations and thanks for having quieted the troublemaker.

Patrick's record-setting goal output wouldn't have happened if he wasn't so tough and resilient:

It wasn't until half an hour before game time that Frank had even decided to play. He had sustained a deep cut under the eye five days before against Victoria, and although the stitches had been removed, the eye was still badly swollen. Against New Westminster, the cut was reopened in the 3rd period and began streaming blood, but he stayed on the ice for the full game and beat ******** for his sixth goal just before the final whistle.

Patrick played a great series in the 1915 Stanley Cup Finals against ottawa:

The score was tied 1-1 when Frank Patrick broke through the entire Ottawa team to score a sensational goal. The Senators never recovered, and were beaten 6-2.

Frank patrick filled in on the defence himself and took keen delight in jousting with his old pal Art Ross.

Cook and Frank Patrick were in great form on the defence and were hard to beat. The rushes of both of them were of the spectacular order.

Patrick played 4 full PCHA seasons and led all defensemen in points each time. He also played 19 more games as required over 5 other seasons as he focused on administrative duties.

PCHA all-time defense points-per-game leaders, min. 80 GP

Name | GP | Pts | PPG
Frank Patrick | 87 | 101 | 1.16
Lester Patrick | 142 | 127 | 0.89
Lloyd Cook | 223 | 166 | 0.74
Art Duncan | 159 | 102 | 0.64
Si Griffis | 110 | 64 | 0.58
Ernie Johnson | 191 | 92 | 0.48
******* | 210 | 86 | 0.41
******* | 82 | 33 | 0.40
******* | 82 | 32 | 0.39
******* | 186 | 72 | 0.39

And finally:

The fine team from Vancouver of the PCHA, which will represent the far west in the sectional conflict for titular honors, will include, among others, Frank Patrick, who is undoubtely the most sensational player in Canada.

Hyberbole? Perhaps. But The Times had to get that idea from somewhere. Frank had come off three straight seasons of being the West's top offensive defenseman so there could be a lot more truth in that statement than you probably think. There is little doubt that Patrick's talents have been underappreciated for years.

 

[jarek]

Frank and Lester Patrick were quite possibly the two best offensive defensemen in the PCHA during their primes. If they were allowed to focus solely on playing hockey, who knows what sort of feats they would have achieved, especially Frank. Frank is quite possibly one of the most underrated players in history, and it is a crime that he is drafted more than 10-20 spots from Lester. The things he brings are just absolutely fantastic.

 

[pappyline]

i selected ferguson as a 4th-line role player - a position i believe he suits well.

in my opinion, i don't see much that separates him from an earlier 4th line pick (orland kurtenbach - who, for the record, was a solid pick). both were tough but, fergie has a higher ppg, beat kurt in points in nearly every season, has a championship pedigree, and is spoken of very highly by his teammates (i.e., jean beliveau).

also, i believe he does have the ability to play in a fourth-line role in the atd. he certainly had no trouble holding down a job in the original 6 era. and, certainly had no trouble helping his team to 5 stanley cups., in which he played an important role. he's by no means the slowest player / worst skater in the draft - as a 4th liner, he'll definitely be used sparingly.

Maybe, I was a little harsh but I really don't like Fergy. I would take Kurtenbach ahead of Fergy any day, Kurtenbach was a much better skater & player. Maybe Fergy did put up better stats but he had better team mates. His stats aren't that great when you consider Beliveau was his usual centre. Just not sure what Fergy brings to a ATD team. Fighting isn't important, He can't keep up with the fleet RW's in his division, and he certainly won't score. At least Kurtenbach can play a strong checking role. Good guy to put up against big offensive centres.

 

[overpass]

The guy who is Alfredsson's owner made the comparison, not me. I'm not sure what is so "unfair" about cross-examining someone for making such a bold claim. All of the mights and maybes about Alfie's career are monopoly money in the ATD - god only knows how many "could have beens" we could throw around about bygone players if we got started with that kind of silly speculation. It's only because we've all seen Alfie play that anyone even attempts this kind of revisionism.

I wasn't putting any "mights or maybes" out about Alfie himself. My point is simply that for most players, especially active players, there's a high level of uncertainty around our estimates of their leadership quality. If we do a little sensitivity analysis, where we change a thing or two about the players circumstances, our estimates of their leadership would change a great deal, unlike our estimates of their level of play which are considerably more robust.

Alfie's questionable track record as captain is not, however, the biggest reason why he doesn't belong in Barber's category among ATD wingers. On ATD 1st lines, if you're going to put a lesser player into that situation, he needs to at least bring what it takes to match up with opposing 1st liners. Barber is a guy who you can put on the ice against a Richard or a Howe, and while he certainly won't win the matchup, he has the tools to effectively check both players, while contributing offensively to an ATD 1st unit in a secondary role. Considering that a healthy majority of history's greatest wingers (especially the power forwards) have played on the right side, a fast, physical 2-way left winger like Barber is extremely valuable in countering opponent's top line players. Alfredsson is soft and he plays the right wing. That, alone, puts him in a lesser category than Barber. The leadership issue is not the most important difference between the two.

Although I think Alfredsson was better in real life, I grant your points on Barber's advantages in the ATD setting. I'm not arguing that Alfredsson should be drafted ahead of Barber. But I can't let this bit pass - Alfredsson is not and never was soft. He doesn't run around hitting guys, but he goes hard after the puck and will initiate contact or take a hit to make a play. Maybe he would get run over by Gordie Howe coming out of the corner, but he wouldn't back down.

 

[Canadiens Fan]

With our 16th selection of the draft the Syracuse Bulldogs are proud to select with 510th pick ....

Mathieu Schneider, D

- won the Stanley Cup with Montreal in 1993
- won the World Cup with Team U.S.A. in 1996
- played in the NHL all-star game in 1996 and 2003
- finished seventh in Norris Trophy voting in 2003-04
- finished sixth in Norris Trophy voting in 2005-06
- in 1264 career NHL games, Schneider has scored 221 goals, 513 assists, for 734 points, 163rd all-time amongst all NHL players, 20th all-time amongst all NHL defensemen.

 

[pitseleh]

Jungosi selects RW Johnny Peirson.

 

[arrbez]

Well, I'm back...so don't skip my pick when it comes up.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm here from a wedding. Already know my first pick but I need to look through a few names for the other guy. Hopefully this doesn't take long. I think I can still read okay.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

D Viktor Kuzkin - the captain of USSR in the Summit Series. Mainly remembered for his offense, but described by one source as "rugged." He has a slew of Soviet League all-star teams and is a member of the IHL HOF. How does this guy always go behind Tsyganov?

D George McNamara - a gigantic, defensive defenseman who loves to bodycheck and is a member of the HHOF. And perhaps, more importantly, he was a first team allstar in MLD 11. I think he's a worthy #6 in this thing. I mean, we're at the point where we are selecting #4 guys from dynasties to be defensive dmen, so I think a HOFer, (even from an early era) fits in.

Will post full bios later.

 

[pitseleh]

Damnit, I wanted Kuzkin and Ross with these two picks. Now I regret not taking Kuzkin first.

Jungosi selects LW Don Maloney.

 

[Hedberg]

D George McNamara - a gigantic, defensive defenseman who loves to bodycheck and is a member of the HHOF. And perhaps, more importantly, he was a first team allstar in MLD 11. I think he's a worthy #6 in this thing. I mean, we're at the point where we are selecting #4 guys from dynasties to be defensive dmen, so I think a HOFer, (even from an early era) fits in.

I would agree. With the draft expanding there's definitely room for a guy like McNamara on a bottom pairing. I love seeing players from hockey's early days getting recognition.

 

[seventieslord]

Kuzkin and McNamara were both great picks.

 

[Sturminator]

Although I think Alfredsson was better in real life, I grant your points on Barber's advantages in the ATD setting. I'm not arguing that Alfredsson should be drafted ahead of Barber. But I can't let this bit pass - Alfredsson is not and never was soft. He doesn't run around hitting guys, but he goes hard after the puck and will initiate contact or take a hit to make a play. Maybe he would get run over by Gordie Howe coming out of the corner, but he wouldn't back down.

Fair enough. "Alfredsson is soft", as a statement in a vacuum, is false. I meant it as a relative statement vis-à-vis Bill Barber, but that's not how it came out.

 

[Canadiens Fan]

With our 17th selection of the draft the Syracuse Bulldogs are proud to select with 515th pick ....

Al Secord, LW

- played in the 1982 and 1983 NHL All-Star games
- in 1981-82 scored 44 goals, tied for fourteenth best in the NHL
- in 1981-82 scored 6 game winning goals, seventh best in the NHL
- in 1981-82 scored 14 power play goals, tied for fourteenth best in the NHL
- in 1981-82 had 303 penalty minutes, fifth most in the NHL
- in 1982-83 scored 54 goals, sixth best in the NHL
- in 1982-83 scored 20 power play goals, first in the NHL
- in 1982-83 scored 6 game winning goals, tied for sixteenth best in the NHL
- in 1982-83 had a shooting percentage of 22.6, eighth best in the NHL
- in 1982-83 had a plus/minus of plus 34, eighteenth best in the NHL
- in 1982-83 had 180 penalty minutes, tied for sixteenth most in the NHL
- played on the 1976 Memorial Cup winning team, Hamilton Fincups of the OHA.

The Hockey News
In 1981-82, he became the only player in NHL history to register 40 goals and more than 300 penalty minutes in a single season, a standard that still stands today.

Joe Pelletier, Legends of Hockey
He took over from Bobby Hull as the Blackhawks 50 goal scorer. At the same time he took over from xxxx xxxx as the Hawks enforcer and heart and soul. It sounds like almost the perfect combination for a hockey player. For a couple of seasons in the 1980s, Al Secord was that player.

In Cam Neely-like fashion, Secord could hurt you two ways - with his goals, or with his fists. Playing on Chicago's "Party Line" with Denis Savard and Steve Larmer, Secord scored 40 goals three times, including 54 in 1982-83. At the same time he was a hard crashing forechecker and a feared fighter.

Secord's first full season in Chicago, 1981-82, was his break out year. Playing on left wing with superstar Denis Savard, Secord scored 44 goals and 75 points, while amassing an amazing 303 penalty minutes.

"I was playing with Denis Savard regularly. My presence gave him more time to operate on ice and I got more ice-time than ever before. I played really physical game that year and I fought quite a bit. Even though I had a lot of penalty minutes that year, I never thought I got penalties because of my reputation. The referees respected me and I respected them."

Secord took his game to the next level in the 1982-83 season, becoming only the 2nd Blackhawk player to score 50 goals. He finished with 54 goals, 20 of them on the power play, and 86 points. With his obvious scoring importance, he toned his fighting game down, and picked up only 180 PIMs.

Former teammate Terry Ruskowski had was glad Secord was on his team.

"Secord was very strong in the corners. He intimidated a lot of people and because of his presence he got the puck. In front of the net he got a lot of deflections. Guys were scared to move him out because if they cross-checked him or hit him too hard, Al was coming back to get revenge on them.

"A lot of people thought Al was just a tough guy who couldn't play. He worked hard in the corner, he had a very good shot, and he was strong on his skates.

After a 50 goal season and 2nd consecutive all star game nod, all seemed to go well with Secord's career. But then disaster struck when he was forced to deal with a serious injury. He missed all but 19 games with torn abdominal muscles. The season after that he missed considerable time with pulled muscles in his thigh. Doctors determined the two serious injuries were related as Secord had one leg that was measurably shorter than the other.

Secord returned to a full 80 game season in 1985-86, and even hit the 40-goal mark for once more. In one game he equaled the NHL record for fastest 4 goals by one player, scoring on 4 shots in 8:24. But the injury continued to hamper him, affecting both his skating and his conditioning. He would spend only one more season in Chicago.

 

[VanIslander]

D George McNamara - a gigantic, defensive defenseman who loves to bodycheck and is a member of the HHOF. And perhaps, more importantly, he was a first team allstar in MLD 11. I think he's a worthy #6 in this thing. I mean, we're at the point where we are selecting #4 guys from dynasties to be defensive dmen, so I think a HOFer, (even from an early era) fits in.

Nice. He was one of two I was considering as my team's #7. Here's hoping one of you doesn't reach to get the other defenseman I think should make his big draft debut.