All-Time Draft #12, Part IV

[Sens Rule]

That certainly wasn't the case in the 2007 Cup finals. Alffy was the only offensive player who seemed to give a damn, and he's probably one of the bigger reasons they kept some of those games close(other than their goaltending). After watching that performance, it's very hard to say that Alfredsson wasn't bringing the fire, but more that the rest of the team just didn't seem to care. Maybe that's a lack of leadership inside the dressing room, but man was he leading by example.

As easy at it is here to criticize a player... I think most of us watched the 2007 playoffs. Alfredsson was the best player in them. After Pronger and Iginla on losing squads he continued the best player being on the losing team. Was he failing as the Captain? I don't know. I watched the entire series... and all the seasons he was on the Sens. If Heatley and XXXXX and others were not motivated by watching a possessed Captain play then maybe they are just not that great a players. If Alfredsson is with a guy like Clarke on his line. Well he does not need to lead anyone and he is with a guy that wants to win as much as he does... or more. Bill Barber was a great two way forward. I think with Clarke as his linemate... Alfredsson is even better.

 

[MadArcand]

All this talk about Alfredsson being excellent two-way forward... what are his Selke voting finishes?

 

[Transplanted Caper]

Miners select Mike Foligno

 

[Sens Rule]

Come on now. Coffey's not a top-12 all-time defenseman because of his defense. He had his moments, that's it. In the ATD, you can't count on him to be a defensive stalwart.



I read that Balon wasn't a good skater at all.

Hmmm i have been reading home game. Coffey was saying... he was never the fourth forward in junior.... Sather made him that. Despite crazy numbers in junior. Maybe not to your point here... In detroit he was better and more focussed on defence.

I just think Coffey is underrated as an overall player. and at times he could play pretty fantastic defence.

 

[Sens Rule]

I'm a big Cherry fan. And I think people allow their personal feelings affect their attitudes towards him.

He's an excellent "player's coach." He understood how to get the most of his players. He also understood how to get them to play within their limitations, how to handles their strengths and weaknesses. He wasn't the strongest tactician out there, or the best X's and O's guy, but neither was Bob Johnson, or several other coaches who will be picked between now and the draft's conclusion.

I have him in the 21 to 25 range for coaches in the ATD. When you look at his accomplishments, they're actually quite good. A couple Stanley Cup final appearances. (Boston probably wins two or three Cups under Cherry's watch if not for the Habs dynasty). A coach of the year award. A terrific winning percentage.

His Colorado tenure was a disaster, but very few coaches, ever, could have succeeded in Colorado. (And by succeeded, I mean perennial playoff appearances, which is about as close to success as you could have had in Colorado).

He was able to have his type of team of team in Boston, a team whose identity was tough, hard-nosed, hard-working hockey. He was the right coach for the late 70s Bruins, and the Bruins had the right team for Cherry to coach. If Hamilton can build that type of team, then coaching won't be an issue.

Hmmm. I don't see Cherry as a top 20-25 coach. I find it crazy that you would feel that way.

 

[Sens Rule]

I'm not sure about the even strength lines, but Makarov absolutely has to be on the first PP unit. He's arguably the best offensive player on your entire team (though Trottier has a better all-round game). Shanahan provides a nice physical presence on the first PP unit.

Actually, now that I think about it, I'd put Makarov on the first line too. Without him, you'll have one of the weaker first lines in the draft. But that's not as necessary as having him on the first PP unit.

Agree. How can Makarov not be on the first PP?

 

[pappyline]

Toros select Winger Vic Stasiuk who is effective on both LW & RW.

Pitseleh selects coach Art Ross

 

[MXD]

There are sometimes where it makes sense to re-unite real life units but I think having Gagnon on the top line is too much of a sacrifice of talent for chemistry.

That's not exactly what I had in mind when I decided the re-unite the Speedball line.

My teams were pretty much always built on the premise of depth at forward. Whether it was having Phil Watson as a 4th C in ATD8, Goulet-Ratelle-Geoffrion as a 2nd unit in ATD9, and Tom Dunderdale/Odie Cleghorne in ATD10, I always tried to have a deeper offensive core than anybody else. I was rather successful at it, only it often came at the expense of defense, goaltending or both.

With 32 teams, some guys become top-6 guys. Some guys becomes lineup candidates. But we see 2nd liners who are weaker than ever, same things for 1st liners.

But then, I do have two guys are that bona-fide 1st liners in this draft -- Hextall and Dillon -- acting as RW on my 2nd and my 3rd line. I knew Gagnon would raise eyebrows, but Joliat and Morenz is probably the best 1-2 punch of the draft on a 1st line. Playing Hextall with them here and there would make them the best 1st line of the draft... and wouldn't lose much on the 2nd : mind you, Phil Watson and Lynn Patrick started their careers playing with... Cecil Dillon, before playing with Hextall.

Not to mention : that defense is my best defense, including the 28 teams ATD I took part of, and is, at worst, an upper quartile defense in that one.

I prefered to sacrifice skill (let's say, Bryan Hextall) on my 1st line for real-life compatibilty, but that was because that would allow me to put up a better defense and better top-9. And to pick Hextall anyway.

And then, my team isn't over. And there's that guy coaching as well...

 

[Stoneberg]

Halifax selects D, Dallas Smith.

 

[Leafs Forever]

All this talk about Alfredsson being excellent two-way forward... what are his Selke voting finishes?

I asked the same thing earlier, and this is the response

Alfredsson was 4th in Selke voting in 2005-06. In this Ottawa fan's opinion, he was considerably more deserving than his teammate who finished 3rd. In 2006-07, he finished 11th in Selke voting.

 

[overpass]

All this talk about Alfredsson being excellent two-way forward... what are his Selke voting finishes?

Leafs Forever posted my earlier response. I'll add that his vote totals were very similar in the year that he finished 4th (2005-06) and the year he finished 11th (2006-07, the difference was that Brind'Amour and Lehtinen were almost a consensus 1 and 2 the first year, and the second year the vote was fractured with many players receiving votes.

Also, I don't think it's a coincidence that Alfredsson's best defensive years came after the lockout. I think his defensive game was a perfect match for the obstruction crackdown, as his skating ability and smarts are his best defensive attributes. His lack of size was more of a weakness pre-lockout.

He's also been Ottawa's first option for the forward on a 5-on-3 penalty kill for a few years now, even though he isn't a centre.

Also, regarding the Alfredsson-Barber comparison, Alfredsson was the captain and best player for a very good team that, yes, underachieved in the playoffs. Barber was the third best player at most on his Cup-winning teams. It's not exactly a fair comparison. Give the Senators Bernie Parent and I think they win at least one Cup - 2003 and 2006 are both good possibilities. And when it comes to leadership, Barber had Bobby Clarke and others; not really comparable to Ottawa. I agree that you don't really count on Alfredsson for leadership in this format, but 1) his leadership might be looked on very differently if the Sens had ever had a good goalie in the playoffs, and 2) As players, Alfredsson's resume is every bit as good as Barber's.

 

[vancityluongo]

Stalberg's time limit has elapsed.

The Medicine Hat Tigers are proud to select a two-way winger with a good scoring touch and three Cup rings for our third line: LW Gilles Tremblay.

Damn. Knew you would take him, but was hoping he'd last until my next pick.

Two different kinds of players, really. But both were in my top-10 for defensemen.

lol, it's funny that everytime 70's write a bio you pop out those one liners right after. Everytime! I love the Leswick pick, but I just found this rather amusing




As 70's said, two different kind of players.

Greschner was a good offensive defenseman with a deadly point shot. He's the perfect #5 defenseman who can play the second power-play unit.

Bucko is a steady and reliable defensive defenseman and a bone crushing hitter. His shot-blocking abilities make him the perfect #5 defenseman who can play the second penalty-kill unit.

I was looking for a defenseman to play alongside Art Duncan, one of the best offensive defenseman of his ERA. With a plethora of defenseman who can play on my powerplay (Quackenbush, Conacher, Thomson, Duncan) and even forward (Rousseau), it was a very logical decision for me.

Thanks guys for the responses. The bolded is exactly what I wanted to hear.

 

[hfboardsuser]

Dynamiters select the guy with one of the best nicknames in all of sports...

D Bill Hajt

 

[seventieslord]

I really question Mogilny's offence vs Alfredsson's. Mogilny had one insane year... nothing else says his offence is a ton better than Alfredsson's. and Mogilny's defence I think is not horrendous just not great.. Alfredsson's defence is great.

I would easily pick Alfredsson over Mogilny on two way play or defensive play... it is close on offence. Obviously I like Mogilny or I would not have picked him... I don't love Mogilny however but he dropped so far he was a god pick for BPA.

Overall, alfredsson is a better offensive player. Mainly because he is also a good playmaker.

But Mogilny is a better goalscorer. And to maximize Mogilny's ability to score goals, you want the best goal scorer next to him. You don't need MORE playmaking on that line, Clarke is one of the best playmakers ever. offensively, that is what Alfredsson provides relative to Mogilny.

I think you are underrating Bill Barber here, who I would pick before Daniel Alfredsson 100% of the time, regardless of positional need. Barber's qualities are maybe a little hard to see on paper, but the guy was a ferocious hockey player. Alfredsson's skill and intelligence are roughly equal to Barber's, but he doesn't have Billy's fire, nor is he anywhere near as strong, and I'd wager to say Barber could outskate him, as well.

There is also the question of leadership and that "winner's" quality which is not even close when comparing Alfie and Barber. I don't want to lay the whole sad story of the Sens on Alfie's shoulders, but I don't think anyone can deny it was a lack of leadership and fire rather than talent that held those Ottawa teams back. Just my opinion, but switch Barber for Alfredsson in history and the Sens win at least one Cup.

This is not meant as a dig at Alfie, but he's no Billy Barber.

This is absolutely correct.

 

[seventieslord]

Hmmm i have been reading home game. Coffey was saying... he was never the fourth forward in junior.... Sather made him that. Despite crazy numbers in junior. Maybe not to your point here... In detroit he was better and more focussed on defence.

I just think Coffey is underrated as an overall player. and at times he could play pretty fantastic defence.

I think so too. He wasn't brutal defensively. But most D-men taken in the ATD were at least above average defensively. I'm just being realistic about what he brings. I wouldn't want to point to two quotes or the Canada Cup 1984 play and start claiming he's as solid as Dit Clapper or Pierre Pilote. That would be cheap of me.

Toros select Winger Vic Stasiuk who is effective on both LW & RW.

Pitseleh selects coach Art Ross

Nice pick, Pappy. Stasiuk was my favourite 4th line LW remaining.

Dynamiters select the guy with one of the best nicknames in all of sports...

D Bill Hajt

Superb pick. A defensive stalwart.

 

[Reds4Life]

Steelers select Gennady Tsygankov, D.

 

[arrbez]

Inglewood selects a 4-time Cup champion whose ability to skate, check, fight, and just generally be the most awesome man alive will be a welcome addition to our 4th Line:

Eddie Shack

 

[God Bless Canada]

I met Eddie a couple times during my early years down here. Heck of a talker. Also a heck of a drinker. Probably holds the national record for most DWI or DUI charges in a lifetime.

 

[arrbez]

I met Eddie a couple times during my early years down here. Heck of a talker. Also a heck of a drinker. Probably holds the national record for most DWI or DUI charges in a lifetime.

As Ogopogo would say, if you're not the best at what you do, you're just a face in the crowd

 

[hfboardsuser]

Superb pick. A defensive stalwart.

Thanks seventies. I really like the look of my defense:

Bourque-Blake
Lowe-Foote
X-Hajt

I was really hoping to land one of Smith or Huddy, and Ozolinsh earlier. As it is, this group might not be the fastest (yet) but I can rely on each player and each unit to play solid defense every night.

 

[arrbez]

Who can take a list in case I'm not around for my next pick (517)?

 

[arrbez]

scratch that, I've gotta run. just skip me if i come up

 

[Sens Rule]

I met Eddie a couple times during my early years down here. Heck of a talker. Also a heck of a drinker. Probably holds the national record for most DWI or DUI charges in a lifetime.

Sad. If he drinks he should take a Cab. If he wants to drink fine. I have never heard that he got a DUI though.... and it seems any players/ex-players I hear when they get into trouble..... I have Horton.. and he died in a DUI.... and he had a business that would have made him rich beyond imagination... and he was still an awesome player.. with a family.

Anyway... DUI.. Shack.. never heard that not that it surprises me.

 

[Johnny Engine]

The Hamilton Bettmans select right-winger Billy Boucher

He's described as a "dangerous scorer" who "played a gritty style."

He has 4 top-tens in goals, and 2 top-tens in assists.
He led the league in PIMs twice, and has a Stanley Cup to his name.

 

[papershoes]

A player whose only claim to fame is being a pugilist should not be picked in an ATD. Besides his ability has a pugilist is very over-rated. Picked his opponents carefully & was a sucker puncher.

i selected ferguson as a 4th-line role player - a position i believe he suits well.

in my opinion, i don't see much that separates him from an earlier 4th line pick (orland kurtenbach - who, for the record, was a solid pick). both were tough but, fergie has a higher ppg, beat kurt in points in nearly every season, has a championship pedigree, and is spoken of very highly by his teammates (i.e., jean beliveau).

also, i believe he does have the ability to play in a fourth-line role in the atd. he certainly had no trouble holding down a job in the original 6 era. and, certainly had no trouble helping his team to 5 stanley cups., in which he played an important role. he's by no means the slowest player / worst skater in the draft - as a 4th liner, he'll definitely be used sparingly.