Rumor: All Purpose Phil Kessel Trade Thread

[rt]

I'm operating on the assumption that Craig Custance's information is based on reality.

he knows more about the situation than you and i.

The one where he says the Coyotes have stated fairly plainly that they aren’t interested in paying a big premium for Kessel and that they’d want Pittsburgh to retain? That information from Custance?

How much more clear would you like them to be?

If you told me you were selling your car for $15,000 and asked me if I was interested and I told you I’d only pay $10,000 and wanted you to replace the tires first, otherwise I wasn’t interested. Would I be wasting your time?

 

[Toby Flenderson]

The one where he says the Coyotes have stated fairly plainly that they aren’t interested in paying a big premium for Kessel and that they’d want Pittsburgh to retain? That information from Custance?

How much more clear would you like them to be?

If you told me you were selling your car for $15,000 and asked me if I was interested and I told you I’d only pay $10,000 and wanted you to replace the tires first, otherwise I wasn’t interested. Would I be wasting your time?

You don’t know the conversations taking place between JR and Chayka though. For all we know, Chayka could be very interested in Kessel but keeps sending JR multiple crap offers because he thinks he can take advantage of the situation. If that’s the case, yes that’s pretty insulting to JR. Especially as young GM, he’s burning his bridges with Pitt for a long time which never a good idea for any team.

 

[domaug]

The one where he says the Coyotes have stated fairly plainly that they aren’t interested in paying a big premium for Kessel and that they’d want Pittsburgh to retain? That information from Custance?

How much more clear would you like them to be?

If you told me you were selling your car for $15,000 and asked me if I was interested and I told you I’d only pay $10,000 and wanted you to replace the tires first, otherwise I wasn’t interested. Would I be wasting your time?

if i were trying to sell a video game console for $150, but someone comes by and tells me "ehh, i don't actually want this, but i guess I'll make an offer... I'll offer $50 and you need to put a 1TB hard drive in it", i would feel like they were wasting my time.

if i tell you up front "i need a 75% retail return for me to move my item, firm" and you come by saying "well I'm not going to offer you 75%, but i will offer 50% and i need you to deliver it to my house", i see that offer as a waste of time.

 

[rt]

You don’t know the conversations taking place between JR and Chayka though.

This is EXACTLY my point. Neither do you or your buddy. Wild and completely baseless speculation about how the negotiations are going. Burden of proof is in the prosecution boys. You’re saying the Coyotes are bad faith negotiators or Chayka is wasting everyone’s time. Show me any evidence of that which isn’t rooted in pure speculative fantasy.

 

[DearDiary]

This is fantastical speculation.

Which part? Explain

 

[rt]

if i were trying to sell a video game console for $150, but someone comes by and tells me "ehh, i don't actually want this, but i guess I'll make an offer... I'll offer $50 and you need to put a 1TB hard drive in it", i would feel like they were wasting my time.

if your interest in my item doesn't appear to be genuine to me, i will feel like you're wasting my time.

I don’t think you read my scenario very carefully. Kessel and the Penguins are breaking up. They’re looking for a home. Why should this compel Arizona to pay one bit more than they want? If Arizona has made a single offer which Pittsburgh doesn’t like, how would that be wasting anyone’s time?

 

[rt]

Which part? Explain

There are these bizarre imagined scenarios about how Chayka is or is not negotiating and how he’s wasting everyone’s time. Nobody has any clue. They’re making it up. I call that baseless, fantastical speculation. What do you call it?

 

[domaug]

I don’t think you read my scenario very carefully. Kessel and the Penguins are breaking up. They’re looking for a home. Why should this compel Arizona to pay one bit more than they want? If Arizona has made a single offer which Pittsburgh doesn’t like, how would that be wasting anyone’s time?

because Pittsburgh is not obligated to trade Kessel. sure, it will be awkward for him to return after what has been speculated, but there is literally no obligation to make a move.

i also think it's interesting how you're calling our opinions "baseless" when we are citing someone's own words who has inside sources. whether he is correct or not, we are basing our comments on information that was reported. you disagree with it, but why does that automatically make your opinion more valid? because you root for the Coyotes and we don't?

 

[Toby Flenderson]

This is EXACTLY my point. Neither do you or your buddy. Wild and completely baseless speculation about how the negotiations are going. Burden of proof is in the prosecution boys. You’re saying the Coyotes are bad faith negotiators or Chayka is wasting everyone’s time. Show me any evidence of that which isn’t rooted in pure speculative fantasy.

The fact that Kessel isn’t already on the Coyotes should be enough evidence of that haha

Kessel clearly wants to be there, and JR has no objection to trading Kessel anywhere as long as he gets a decent return.

The hold up? Chayka low balling JR. If he wasn’t, Kessel would have been a yote last week.

Now to be fair, nobody knows the exact level of interest Chayka has in Kessel. It could be high it could be low, who knows. But as a GM, opportunities for discounted superstars like Kessel don’t come around often at all, he should be all over this.

It’s not like JR is asking for Keller. I’m sure Galchenyuk’s name was brought up since JR likes the kid, and if that’s all it takes for Kessel I really don’t see why Chayka says no other than the fact he’s trying to screw JR. Hell, even the 14th overall pick would be an acceptable starting point and that player has like a 15% chance of becoming the player Kessel is.

 

[domaug]

There are these bizarre imagined scenarios about how Chayka is or is not negotiating and how he’s wasting everyone’s time. Nobody has any clue. They’re making it up. I call that baseless, fantastical speculation. What do you call it?

i don't know if this is exactly how he's negotiating. neither do you.

i interpret the words "willing to take X off their hands" as a statement that there is a minimal level of interest. not enough to bid heavy, but enough to give maybe one or two offers. in that respect, yeah, why would you offer something that's fair?

but the Pens aren't in the business of helping out the Coyotes. because, once again, they're not actually obligated to deal Kessel, if they're not getting a fair return for Kessel, they can just tell him "Arizona doesn't want you badly enough and a deal with them will not work; you'll probably have to get comfortable and play in Pittsburgh again".

obviously the business is more involved than that, but if they actually cared about building their team to compete, they would make damn sure they get the best return they could get given their circumstances.

 

[rt]

because Pittsburgh is not obligated to trade Kessel. sure, it will be awkward for him to return after what has been speculated, but there is literally no obligation to make a move.

i also think it's interesting how you're calling our opinions "baseless" when we are citing someone's own words who has inside sources. whether he is correct or not, we are basing our comments on information that was reported. you disagree with it, but why does that automatically make your opinion more valid? because you root for the Coyotes and we don't?

No you aren’t citing someone’s own words. Go ahead and show me where Chayka is being accused of being unreasonable.

I don’t even like Chayka. I’d fire him today if I could. But you guys are making huge logical leaps.

 

[rt]

i don't know if this is exactly how he's negotiating. neither do you.

This was my entire point. Go back to our first exchange on this topic. I chimed in when you were inventing a narrative about this negotiation that you have no access to.

 

[rt]

The fact that Kessel isn’t already on the Coyotes should be enough evidence of that haha

Kessel clearly wants to be there, and JR has no objection to trading Kessel anywhere as long as he gets a decent return.

The hold up? Chayka low balling JR. If he wasn’t, Kessel would have been a yote last week.

Now to be fair, nobody knows the exact level of interest Chayka has in Kessel. It could be high it could be low, who knows. But as a GM, opportunities for discounted superstars like Kessel don’t come around often at all, he should be all over this.

It’s not like JR is asking for Keller. I’m sure Galchenyuk’s name was brought up since JR likes the kid, and if that’s all it takes for Kessel I really don’t see why Chayka says no other than the fact he’s trying to screw JR. Hell, even the 14th overall pick would be an acceptable starting point and that player has like a 15% chance of becoming the player Kessel is.

Chayka doesn’t have to want to pay JR’s price. I’ve read a million of your posts. I know you’re a smart guy, or at least someone who is capable of expressing critical thinking ability (which is better than being “smart” anyway).

If Chayka doesn’t want to trade a first round pick for a 32 year old with a 6.8 cap hit, that’s his prerogative.

 

[Mosby]

Who is more desperate - Pittsburgh to remove Kessel from the locker room or Kessel to remove himself from the locker room?

Zucker for Kessel is a fair fallback option but Rutherford may have the rug pulled out from him on that if Minny gets antsy waiting for Kessel to waive and ends up trading Zucker somewhere else first, like Vancouver. It’s not like they haven’t shopped him to a half dozen teams already.

 

[domaug]

This was my entire point. Go back to our first exchange on this topic. I chimed in when you were inventing a narrative about this negotiation that you have no access to.

you said my comment was baseless. i told you i was basing it off Custance's writing. you then tried to argue for why Chayka "shouldn't offer fair value".

i don't care what Chayka does. my stance is that the Pens should break communication with them if they get low-balled.

i don't know if that's actually happening. you don't know if that's actually NOT happening. i told you what my source was. you don't have to believe it, but you can't just call it baseless. will you only ever believe it if it comes right out of Chayka's mouth?

 

[rt]

Given Kessel’s age, I’d be just as happy to sit back and hope we get a bargain. If not, I’d call Tampa and check on Gourde or Miller. Or Florida with Hoffman. Or New York with Kreider. Or Minnesota with Zucker. Or Toronto with Kapanen or Johnsson. Or UFA with Dzingel or MoJo or Connolly or Eberle. Whoever. There’s a bunch of upgrades on what we currently have put there. We’ve got options. Lots of fish in the sea. No reason to settle down and pay whatever Pittsburgh wants. We can play the field.

 

[rt]

you said my comment was baseless. i told you i was basing it off Custance's writing. you then tried to argue for why Chayka "shouldn't offer fair value".

i don't care what Chayka does. my stance is that the Pens should break communication with them if they get low-balled.

i don't know if that's actually happening. you don't know if that's actually NOT happening. i told you what my source was. you don't have to believe it, but you can't just call it baseless. will you only ever believe it if it comes right out of Chayka's mouth?

I never argued why Chayka shouldn’t have offered fair value and you’ve done nothing but bastardize Custance’s words to fit a narrative you invented.

 

[domaug]

This was my entire point. Go back to our first exchange on this topic. I chimed in when you were inventing a narrative about this negotiation that you have no access to.

i made an interpretation based off of what Craig Custance wrote in that article on The Athletic. i didn't make the claim that it was a fact (again, NOBODY HERE KNOWS THE FACTS, INCLUDING YOU), i operated under the assumption that that is what was happening. i will change my views when i am presented with new information. are you really satisfied with yourself playing a silly game of semantics all night? because personally i think this is all fruitless discussion.
i think you're mostly mad that you think I'm accusing Chayka of blatantly trying to rip off JR. i don't know his motives. my statement was that IF he is offering an unfair return, JR should break talks with him and move elsewhere.

purely. my. opinion.

 

[Bazeek]

Who is more desperate - Pittsburgh to remove Kessel from the locker room or Kessel to remove himself from the locker room?

Zucker for Kessel is a fair fallback option but Rutherford may have the rug pulled out from him on that if Minny gets antsy waiting for Kessel to waive and ends up trading Zucker somewhere else first, like Vancouver. It’s not like they haven’t shopped him to a half dozen teams already.

Zucker's probably moved at the draft. Maybe a little before then but certainly not after. Up until then it's kind of a game of chicken between Kessel and Rutherford, but once we hit June 21 they both lose that option.

I also think it's unlikely that Fenton bites on what Chayka's offering for Zucker.

 

[rt]

For the record:

1. I don’t like Chayka
2. I have agreed to several of @Toby Flenderson ’s proposals for Kessel to AZ. I don’t think he’s at all far off with his valuation.
3. I personally like Kessel a lot and would pay a lot for him.
4. I freely admit I have no idea what’s happening in these negotiations and I haven’t accused JR of ANYTHING
5. I wish some Pens fans would look at point four above and follow suit WRT Chayka/Coyotes

 

[rt]

i made an interpretation based off of what Craig Custance wrote in that article on The Athletic. i didn't make the claim that it was a fact (again, NOBODY HERE KNOWS THE FACTS, INCLUDING YOU), i operated under the assumption that that is what was happening. i will change my views when i am presented with new information. are you really satisfied with yourself playing a silly game of semantics all night? because personally i think this is all fruitless discussion.
i think you're mostly mad that you think I'm accusing Chayka of blatantly trying to rip off JR. i don't know his motives. my statement was that IF he is offering an unfair return, JR should break talks with him and move elsewhere.

purely. my. opinion.

You can’t read your own caps lock man. The only reason we’re engaged in this back and forth is because you tried to invent a narrative that Chayka is unreasonable and wasting JR’s time. Nothing that Custance wrote supports that and it’s a baseless claim you fantasized.

I have never tried to say JR or Chayka are being unreasonable or screwing anyone over. I wouldn’t do that because I’m well aware I know nothing about it. I jumped in to invite you to admit the same. Go back and re-read the posts that led to this little spat. Please.

 

[Toby Flenderson]

Chayka doesn’t have to want to pay JR’s price. I’ve read a million of your posts. I know you’re a smart guy, or at least someone who is capable of expressing critical thinking ability (which is better than being “smart” anyway).

If Chayka doesn’t want to trade a first round pick for a 32 year old with a 6.8 cap hit, that’s his prerogative.

Okay but that’s just not smart in my opinion.

Kessel has 3 years left on his deal, and there’s no reason to think he’s going to drastically fall off in that time frame. 6.8 mill for a ppg player is an absolute steal in today’s NHL, every GM would love to have that kind of guy.

The 14th pick probably won’t help the Yotes for at least 2 seasons, and there’s a very very small chance he turns out to be as good as Kessel.

Chayka is entitled to that option if he wants, but if I’m an AZ fan and he lets Kessel slip through his fingers I’m pissed

 

[domaug]

I never argued why Chayka shouldn’t have offered fair value and you’ve done nothing but bastardize Custance’s words to fit a narrative you invented.

you're right, i really made a bold leap suggesting that someone who "would take X off their hands" was someone who would make a minimal offer.

you can say my interpretation of Custance's report is incorrect, but your support of that claim has only been "you're making shit up". is this all you plan to do for the rest of the night, gatekeep a discussion that involves a Coyotes rumor? determine who can and cannot comment on Custance's rumor?

 

[Mosby]

I also think it's unlikely that Fenton bites on what Chayka's offering for Zucker.

Same. Just thinking the Pens could be really backed into a corner here if Zucker gets traded to Vancouver or Calgary or one of the many teams he’s been offered to.

 

[Bazeek]

Same. Just thinking the Pens could be really backed into a corner here if Zucker gets traded to Vancouver or Calgary or one of the many teams he’s been offered to.

I think they would be and it makes sense for Chayka to use that leverage. I think the question is how backed into a corner Kessel would be at that point as well.