All Ottawa Senators Head Coach discussions

[Tak7]

You a Sens fan Tak? or just in here stirring the pot? ... I'll take that back if you can back up any of your claims with some specific context about those teams and what went wrong.. and then how it was Boucher's fault

I don't really know if this is context, but in 2010-2011, he took Tampa to the doorstep of the Cup Final. After that, his team fell off and he was fired. I remember people saying the team just tuned him out. I remember watching Tampa early in the season he was fired, and I see similarities between them, then, and Ottawa now - miserable, not having fun/confidence, and fed up with their coach.

Craig Button referenced something similar in Switzerland. Took Bern to the Swiss Cup and into the playoffs, and then next year they appeared to tune him out and stopped listening to his brow-beating style.

Just merely pointing out that this is very much a trend with Boucher that shouldn't be ignored.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I don't really know if this is context, but in 2010-2011, he took Tampa to the doorstep of the Cup Final. After that, his team fell off and he was fired. I remember people saying the team just tuned him out. I remember watching Tampa early in the season he was fired, and I see similarities between them, then, and Ottawa now - miserable, not having fun/confidence, and fed up with their coach.

Craig Button referenced something similar in Switzerland. Took Bern to the Swiss Cup and into the playoffs, and then next year they appeared to tune him out and stopped listening to his brow-beating style.

Just merely pointing out that this is very much a trend with Boucher that shouldn't be ignored.

Well those are the results ... I am sure there were particulars that led to those results just like there are here in Ottawa. The particulars will be different in each case I am sure of that

 

[megalomania]

As for his team in Switzerland, they appear to have lost faith in him when he announced his intent to leave and search for work in the NHL and not pursue an extension with the club. Hard to judge how much is players not liking his system vs players feeling he`s abandoning them.

I may be wrong but from what I remember they were doing pretty terribly two or three months into the season and only then did he announce his intention to leave for North America at the end of the season. Keep in mind he was coaching one of the top teams in the league in terms of budget (and the one with the highest average attendance in Europe) where the expectation is pretty much to be top three in the regular season and compete for the cup every year. They were on pace to miss the playoffs (in a league with 12 teams where 8 make the playoffs) so way below expectations.

They probably tuned him out completely once it was clear he wouldn't be back and the team had horrendous amounts of injury that year, so it's certainly not all on him, but I remember them playing ultra defensive and looking pretty lifeless in those months before his firing. Once he was gone the team just snuck into the playoffs under his successor and won the cup.

 

[Micklebot]

I may be wrong but from what I remember they were doing pretty terribly two or three months into the season and only then did he announce his intention to leave for North America at the end of the season. Keep in mind he was coaching one of the top teams in the league in terms of budget (and the one with the highest average attendance in Europe) where the expectation is pretty much to be top three in the regular season and compete for the cup every year. They were on pace to miss the playoffs (in a league with 12 teams where 8 make the playoffs) so way below expectations.

They probably tuned him out completely once it was clear he wouldn't be back and the team had horrendous amounts of injury that year, so it's certainly not all on him, but I remember them playing ultra defensive and looking pretty lifeless in those months before his firing. Once he was gone the team just snuck into the playoffs under his successor and won the cup.

He announced a week or so before being released, then lost 4 straight games and he was gone. I know they went through a lot of injuries that season, but am not sure of the timing or how they affected things. Before losing four straight, they had a 10-8 record, which if they kept pace would have landed them around 5th. At the time of his firing, the were 10-12, which I believe is exactly on pace for their actual finish of 21 wins, though they lost fewer in regulation under the new coach. Leuenberger went on to coach the final 28 games, so the announcement he was leaving came well before the end of the season.

I recall reading that Leuenberger actually continued to use, and credited Boucher's system for the teams performance, but I can't find it now, and can't confirm the accuracy of the claim.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

The key is flexibility. Anyone can create a good system when you have all your players, and things are going well. But, you also have to account for injuries, rookie promotions, and guys simply not having the exact skillset you want for a particular role/position (Chabot on LD).

The system has to be able to evolve and adapt. You can't simply go out and overspend to get specific players all the time. Teams need to make use of their rookies and AHL players to be successful.

 

[Langdon Alger]

You insinuated it with the Country Club talk and not blaming the coach . If the coach doesn't go then the players must right?

I never said the coach doesn’t deserve blame. I just don’t like the coach getting all the blame. When you win 10 out of 30 games I feel there’s plenty of blame to go around. When someone says the players don’t deserve any blame, I disagree with that.

If management felt the same way and came in and said “don’t worry about it guys, this is all Guy Boucher’s fault, you haven’t done anything wrong. We’ll just get you a new coach”,that would be a country club in my opinion. It’s telling the players that no matter what they do, they’re never to blame.

Our goaltending has been sub par. They don’t deserve any blame for that?

We have very few players having good years. In some cases (Karlsson, Ryan) they aren’t completely healthy, but other than Mark Stone, I don’t see too many guys having good years so far.

You’re free to your opinion, but there’s no way I’m putting all of this on one person. No way.

 

[DJB]

Of course its not entirely Guys fault 100 %. That would be impossible. From your original message i just thought you laid all the blame on the players but seeing your last message tells me you dont feel that way.

Dorion has some blame for not improving the D. Melnyk to blame for some decisions is my guess.

The players have some blame, but for me the team has too much offensive talent to not be better and scoring more. The system Boucher is not good. It is a large reason as to why this team sucks

 

[Langdon Alger]

Of course its not entirely Guys fault 100 %. That would be impossible. From your original message i just thought you laid all the blame on the players but seeing your last message tells me you dont feel that way.

Dorion has some blame for not improving the D. Melnyk to blame for some decisions is my guess.

The players have some blame, but for me the team has too much offensive talent to not be better and scoring more. The system Boucher is not good. It is a large reason as to why this team sucks

Could be, but we had success last year with the same system. It’s not like the system never worked in the first place.

I felt we’d take a step back this year after losing Methot and Andy being a year older, but I thought we’d be better than this.

I actually put most of the blame on management for our current situation. Lots of decisions in the last 4-5 years I really disagree with. Some at the time, some in hindsight, but there was a real opportunity to turn our fortunes around after 2010-2011. Too many picks traded, too many bad contracts, Alfie leaving. Very disappointing.

 

[Karl Prime]

I think the system is fine as it is when Karlsson is in good form, but tweaks have to be made because Karl can't be depended on to carry the offense. There has to be more of an emphasis on the forecheck and generating a cycle.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

I think the system is fine as it is when Karlsson is in good form, but tweaks have to be made because Karl can't be depended on to carry the offense. There has to be more of an emphasis on the forecheck and generating a cycle.

We need a full time puck mover outside of Karlsson and a big power forward in the top 6. Inject some youth that can move between the middle six.

 

[DJB]

Could be, but we had success last year with the same system. It’s not like the system never worked in the first place.

I felt we’d take a step back this year after losing Methot and Andy being a year older, but I thought we’d be better than this.

I actually put most of the blame on management for our current situation. Lots of decisions in the last 4-5 years I really disagree with. Some at the time, some in hindsight, but there was a real opportunity to turn our fortunes around after 2010-2011. Too many picks traded, too many bad contracts, Alfie leaving. Very disappointing.

The system worked in Tampa year one too then failed the next once it was figured out.

I really think teams have it figured out now . They are aware of how we break out with that little pass from the corner to the front of the net . They know that our two wingers in the neutral zone tend to go near the boards at the blue line. They know that to get the puck back in the defensive zone just to send more guys in because we only attack with two forwards. They know that our d pinch and step up in the neutral zone and are making passes to the middle to avoid it.

The system has been figured out

 

[Micklebot]

The system worked in Tampa year one too. I really think teams have it figured out now . They are aware of how we break out with that little pass from the corner to the front of the net . They know that our two wingers in the neutral zone tend to go near the boards at the blue line. They know that to get the puck back in the defensive zone just to send more guys in because we only attack with two forwards. They know that our d pinch and step up in the neutral zone and are making passes to the middle to avoid it.

The system has been figured out

They knew about the step up by about game 20 of last year, but it continued to be effective all the way to the conference finals. It was effective to start this year as well. I feel like the claim that they've figured it out is misleading. Knowing what the system will do was never really a secret. Executing plays to get past it is still difficult when it's run properly (we've seen spurts where it still works even during the slump). I really don't think this is a broken system so much as a poorly executed one. Too often during this slump, for example, I've seen the D step up without the forward support. That's not teams figuring it out, it's us not executing.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Not on Boucher ..
The system is not broken and has not been figured out .. execution has been the problem
On top of that
Karlsson has not been able to either defend or generate offense close to what he did last year.. BIG HOLE
Methot not being there ... BIG HOLE (Dorion)
Goaltending has been well below average ... BIG HOLE
NHL Defensemen depth .. BIG HOLE (Dorion)
Lack of real top 6 depth (Dorion)
------------------------------------------------------
On Boucher
- Stubbornness with player choices ..
- Too much blender on the lines especially when introducing Duchene
- Unwillingness to play young players to their strengths while allowing them to grow

Also ... imo Dorion has a big role in the philosophy of allowing young players to graduate to the big team.. which is not apparent.

 

[Langdon Alger]

The system worked in Tampa year one too then failed the next once it was figured out.

I really think teams have it figured out now . They are aware of how we break out with that little pass from the corner to the front of the net . They know that our two wingers in the neutral zone tend to go near the boards at the blue line. They know that to get the puck back in the defensive zone just to send more guys in because we only attack with two forwards. They know that our d pinch and step up in the neutral zone and are making passes to the middle to avoid it.

The system has been figured out

Some good points here. I wonder if Boucher is preaching that “be patient” mentality from last year. He said it wasn’t all going to come together right away, we had to stick with it. We did and it worked out. Maybe this year he thinks we need to keep playing this way and eventually it will sort itself out rather than to make adjustments.

I just looked it up and in Boucher’s 2nd year in Tampa, they gave up 281 goals, which was worst in the league and had a -46 goal differential. Yikes. Despite that, they finished 10th in the east and were only 8 points behind Ottawa who finished 8th in the conference. Let’s hope Ottawa doesn’t come close to that number.

 

[Fandlauer]

Boucher is one of the lowest paid coaches in the league. There is absolutely no point in firing him. We won't get better for what we are willing to pay.

 

[God Says No]

Not surprising he's paid so little. I bet it was one of the main factors why Boudreau wasn't seriously considered.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Not surprising he's paid so little. I bet it was one of the main factors why Boudreau wasn't seriously considered.

Well Dorion said Boucher was the first choice so it must be true. It's not like Dorion has ever said anything to cover Melnyk's ass or anything.

 

[BonkTastic]

Boucher is one of the lowest paid coaches in the league. There is absolutely no point in firing him. We won't get better for what we are willing to pay.

Yup.

We didn't choose Boucher over Boudreau.

We chose Boucher's salary demands over Boudreau's salary demands.

 

[GuyBoucherEvilGenius]

The problem is, like fellow defensive oriented coaches whose systems are rooted in neutral zone trapping (Jacques Lemaire), Guy Boucher takes bad teams and makes them average, takes average teams and makes them good. His teams frequently over achieve in year one, and It does him a disservice. It sets up unrealistic expectations going forward because the "talent" on the team is overrated as a result.

This core group of Senators players had been the definition of a bubble playoff team before Boucher got here, finishing between 7th and 11th in the Eastern Conference. Boucher comes in and emphasizes a defense-first neutral zone trapping system that is frustrating/boring to play against. However, it is effective. Ottawa was fifth in the conference in goals against with Boucher. The previous year they were second to last. Under Boucher, They scored 212 goals and gave up 214 - They played in lots of close one goal games as a result of their system and built a great deal of confidence in winning those close hard fought games. This translated to the playoffs, where so many games are one goal games or go to OT, and the foundation the Sens had built in these types of situations enabled them to go on a deep run Game 7 of the ECF.

The problem is fans, media, and most notably Sens management (especially Dorion) attributed the success to the "talent" of the roster. Nothing exemplifies this more than the perpetual "this team was one goal away from a SCF appearance" notion Dorion has been pushing since the summer.

That thought process couldn't be more wrong. This group at its core is still a bubble playoff team in terms of talent level. Compare our group of forwards to other good teams in the league. Where do we rank? Pretty low in my estimation. Even bad teams have like Carolina and Buffalo have more impressive offensive pieces than we do - guys like Aho, Skinner, Teravainen, Eichel, Kane. Our D corps is bottom five in the league without Methot. It is slow, plodding, thin, and offers very little mobility or offense besides Karlsson. Our goaltending is also bottom 10 in the league. Anderson is pedestrian at best and aging, Condon is a third string fringe NHL goalie.

The problem is water always seeks its level. No matter how good the system or coaching is, the talent always shows its true colors at various points in time. This losing streak was a prime example.

The same thing happened in Tampa Bay. Boucher over achieved in his first season - knocking out the Penguins who suffered injuries to Crosby and Malkin, sweeping Washington who was the #1 team in the East in, and losing by one goal in Game 7 of the ECF to eventual Cup champion Boston.

He had more talent up and down his lineup (Lecavalier, St Louis, Malone, Stamkos, Gagne, Hedman, Kubina, Ohlund, Brewer), but he had NOTHING in the crease. A goalie trio of Dwayne Roloson, Dan Ellis, and a young Mike Smith. Dwayne Roloson was his #1 goaltender. The following season it was a tandem of Roloson and Garon. And in his final season it was the "dynamic duo" of Anders Lindback and Garon.

This was his downfall in Tampa. Not burnout, not the system being figured out, not an inability to adapt, etc. We've all seen it many times before - When you don't have a legitimate #1 goalie, you're screwed. How many talented Flyers teams have toiled away in mediocrity with guys like Brian Boucher or Michael Leighton in the net? Tampa Bay also dealt with some big injuries - guys like Hedman, Malone, and Lecavalier missed 15-20 games each in 2011-12. Ohlund never played in the NHL again after 2010-11. Some secondary scoring was lost after 2010-11 when Simon Gagne left. But the goaltending is what really undid Boucher in the two seasons following the ECF run. You can only overcome giving up bad soft goals for so long. The players and coaches get frustrated. No matter what changes you make, you feel like nothing is working because the puck keeps ending up in the back of the net. You never feel comfortable playing your defensive style because you know you don't have the goaltending to ultimately execute it. The losses pile up, you get sucked into more run and gun games, you lose your structure, the players lose faith in the coaching and the system, and it comes crashing down.

Boucher was Yzerman's fall guy. Yzerman failed miserably to acquire a legitimate starting caliber goaltender until he finally got Ben Bishop. By then, it was already too late for Boucher. Yzerman failed him.

The same thing is happening in Ottawa. Dorion is failing Boucher. The goaltending in year two has been downright abysmal. Craig Anderson and Mike Condon have shown their truer colors. Nothing has been done to upgrade the mobility/skill of the D, and nothing has been done to upgrade the top level skill of the forward group to help this team become more than a bubble playoff team.

Duchene for Turris was a lateral move. Overpaid has beens like Dion and Bobby clogging the cap with immovable contracts. Losing the Brassard, Duchene, and Burrows deals. Losing Methot without adequately replacing him. Signing Johnny Oduya for a top 4 role.

The narrative of "Boucher Burn out" is aggravating me. It's just not accurate. He is an excellent tactical coach. He is intense, but with success that intensity is not problematic. He has taken two teams to the door step of the SCF. His GM's have failed him. His goaltending in Tampa Bay was a league-worst scenario that caused the team to ultimately unravel. Similar things are now happening in Ottawa. After a year one overachievement, Water is now seeking its level with Ottawa's goaltending and defensive corps. Dorion's poor moves and over valuation of his team's talent level are slowly sinking the ship.

 

[Langdon Alger]

Yup.

We didn't choose Boucher over Boudreau.

We chose Boucher's salary demands over Boudreau's salary demands.

Speculation, not fact. It’s possible Dorion liked Boucher more, as hard as that is for people to believe. Why bother meeting with Boudreau in the first place if you can’t afford him?

You could be right, but you’re doomed in Ottawa if you pick the cheaper option.

 

[BonkTastic]

Why bother meeting with Boudreau in the first place if you can’t afford him?

I have never heard of salary negotiations happening before job interviews, in any industry, ever.

 

[Langdon Alger]

I have never heard of salary negotiations happening before job interviews, in any industry, ever.

Nor have I, but they must have known what he made in Anaheim. Presumably, he’s going to want something in that range. I think everyone knew he was going to be one of the higher paid coaches in the league.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Remember Boudreau saying "well they offered a 3rd year" when he was asked why he signed in Minnesota?

 

[Langdon Alger]

Remember Boudreau saying "well they offered a 3rd year" when he was asked why he signed in Minnesota?

A 4th year. Standard coaching contracts are 3 years.

 

[Langdon Alger]

The problem is, like fellow defensive oriented coaches whose systems are rooted in neutral zone trapping (Jacques Lemaire), Guy Boucher takes bad teams and makes them average, takes average teams and makes them good. His teams frequently over achieve in year one, and It does him a disservice. It sets up unrealistic expectations going forward because the "talent" on the team is overrated as a result.

This core group of Senators players had been the definition of a bubble playoff team before Boucher got here, finishing between 7th and 11th in the Eastern Conference. Boucher comes in and emphasizes a defense-first neutral zone trapping system that is frustrating/boring to play against. However, it is effective. Ottawa was fifth in the conference in goals against with Boucher. The previous year they were second to last. Under Boucher, They scored 212 goals and gave up 214 - They played in lots of close one goal games as a result of their system and built a great deal of confidence in winning those close hard fought games. This translated to the playoffs, where so many games are one goal games or go to OT, and the foundation the Sens had built in these types of situations enabled them to go on a deep run Game 7 of the ECF.

The problem is fans, media, and most notably Sens management (especially Dorion) attributed the success to the "talent" of the roster. Nothing exemplifies this more than the perpetual "this team was one goal away from a SCF appearance" notion Dorion has been pushing since the summer.

That thought process couldn't be more wrong. This group at its core is still a bubble playoff team in terms of talent level. Compare our group of forwards to other good teams in the league. Where do we rank? Pretty low in my estimation. Even bad teams have like Carolina and Buffalo have more impressive offensive pieces than we do - guys like Aho, Skinner, Teravainen, Eichel, Kane. Our D corps is bottom five in the league without Methot. It is slow, plodding, thin, and offers very little mobility or offense besides Karlsson. Our goaltending is also bottom 10 in the league. Anderson is pedestrian at best and aging, Condon is a third string fringe NHL goalie.

The problem is water always seeks its level. No matter how good the system or coaching is, the talent always shows its true colors at various points in time. This losing streak was a prime example.

The same thing happened in Tampa Bay. Boucher over achieved in his first season - knocking out the Penguins who suffered injuries to Crosby and Malkin, sweeping Washington who was the #1 team in the East in, and losing by one goal in Game 7 of the ECF to eventual Cup champion Boston.

He had more talent up and down his lineup (Lecavalier, St Louis, Malone, Stamkos, Gagne, Hedman, Kubina, Ohlund, Brewer), but he had NOTHING in the crease. A goalie trio of Dwayne Roloson, Dan Ellis, and a young Mike Smith. Dwayne Roloson was his #1 goaltender. The following season it was a tandem of Roloson and Garon. And in his final season it was the "dynamic duo" of Anders Lindback and Garon.

This was his downfall in Tampa. Not burnout, not the system being figured out, not an inability to adapt, etc. We've all seen it many times before - When you don't have a legitimate #1 goalie, you're screwed. How many talented Flyers teams have toiled away in mediocrity with guys like Brian Boucher or Michael Leighton in the net? Tampa Bay also dealt with some big injuries - guys like Hedman, Malone, and Lecavalier missed 15-20 games each in 2011-12. Ohlund never played in the NHL again after 2010-11. Some secondary scoring was lost after 2010-11 when Simon Gagne left. But the goaltending is what really undid Boucher in the two seasons following the ECF run. You can only overcome giving up bad soft goals for so long. The players and coaches get frustrated. No matter what changes you make, you feel like nothing is working because the puck keeps ending up in the back of the net. You never feel comfortable playing your defensive style because you know you don't have the goaltending to ultimately execute it. The losses pile up, you get sucked into more run and gun games, you lose your structure, the players lose faith in the coaching and the system, and it comes crashing down.

Boucher was Yzerman's fall guy. Yzerman failed miserably to acquire a legitimate starting caliber goaltender until he finally got Ben Bishop. By then, it was already too late for Boucher. Yzerman failed him.

The same thing is happening in Ottawa. Dorion is failing Boucher. The goaltending in year two has been downright abysmal. Craig Anderson and Mike Condon have shown their truer colors. Nothing has been done to upgrade the mobility/skill of the D, and nothing has been done to upgrade the top level skill of the forward group to help this team become more than a bubble playoff team.

Duchene for Turris was a lateral move. Overpaid has beens like Dion and Bobby clogging the cap with immovable contracts. Losing the Brassard, Duchene, and Burrows deals. Losing Methot without adequately replacing him. Signing Johnny Oduya for a top 4 role.

The narrative of "Boucher Burn out" is aggravating me. It's just not accurate. He is an excellent tactical coach. He is intense, but with success that intensity is not problematic. He has taken two teams to the door step of the SCF. His GM's have failed him. His goaltending in Tampa Bay was a league-worst scenario that caused the team to ultimately unravel. Similar things are now happening in Ottawa. After a year one overachievement, Water is now seeking its level with Ottawa's goaltending and defensive corps. Dorion's poor moves and over valuation of his team's talent level are slowly sinking the ship.

Wow, well done.