All Ottawa Senators Head Coach discussions

[Icelevel]

The problem is, like fellow defensive oriented coaches whose systems are rooted in neutral zone trapping (Jacques Lemaire), Guy Boucher takes bad teams and makes them average, takes average teams and makes them good. His teams frequently over achieve in year one, and It does him a disservice. It sets up unrealistic expectations going forward because the "talent" on the team is overrated as a result.

This core group of Senators players had been the definition of a bubble playoff team before Boucher got here, finishing between 7th and 11th in the Eastern Conference. Boucher comes in and emphasizes a defense-first neutral zone trapping system that is frustrating/boring to play against. However, it is effective. Ottawa was fifth in the conference in goals against with Boucher. The previous year they were second to last. Under Boucher, They scored 212 goals and gave up 214 - They played in lots of close one goal games as a result of their system and built a great deal of confidence in winning those close hard fought games. This translated to the playoffs, where so many games are one goal games or go to OT, and the foundation the Sens had built in these types of situations enabled them to go on a deep run Game 7 of the ECF.

The problem is fans, media, and most notably Sens management (especially Dorion) attributed the success to the "talent" of the roster. Nothing exemplifies this more than the perpetual "this team was one goal away from a SCF appearance" notion Dorion has been pushing since the summer.

That thought process couldn't be more wrong. This group at its core is still a bubble playoff team in terms of talent level. Compare our group of forwards to other good teams in the league. Where do we rank? Pretty low in my estimation. Even bad teams have like Carolina and Buffalo have more impressive offensive pieces than we do - guys like Aho, Skinner, Teravainen, Eichel, Kane. Our D corps is bottom five in the league without Methot. It is slow, plodding, thin, and offers very little mobility or offense besides Karlsson. Our goaltending is also bottom 10 in the league. Anderson is pedestrian at best and aging, Condon is a third string fringe NHL goalie.

The problem is water always seeks its level. No matter how good the system or coaching is, the talent always shows its true colors at various points in time. This losing streak was a prime example.

The same thing happened in Tampa Bay. Boucher over achieved in his first season - knocking out the Penguins who suffered injuries to Crosby and Malkin, sweeping Washington who was the #1 team in the East in, and losing by one goal in Game 7 of the ECF to eventual Cup champion Boston.

He had more talent up and down his lineup (Lecavalier, St Louis, Malone, Stamkos, Gagne, Hedman, Kubina, Ohlund, Brewer), but he had NOTHING in the crease. A goalie trio of Dwayne Roloson, Dan Ellis, and a young Mike Smith. Dwayne Roloson was his #1 goaltender. The following season it was a tandem of Roloson and Garon. And in his final season it was the "dynamic duo" of Anders Lindback and Garon.

This was his downfall in Tampa. Not burnout, not the system being figured out, not an inability to adapt, etc. We've all seen it many times before - When you don't have a legitimate #1 goalie, you're screwed. How many talented Flyers teams have toiled away in mediocrity with guys like Brian Boucher or Michael Leighton in the net? Tampa Bay also dealt with some big injuries - guys like Hedman, Malone, and Lecavalier missed 15-20 games each in 2011-12. Ohlund never played in the NHL again after 2010-11. Some secondary scoring was lost after 2010-11 when Simon Gagne left. But the goaltending is what really undid Boucher in the two seasons following the ECF run. You can only overcome giving up bad soft goals for so long. The players and coaches get frustrated. No matter what changes you make, you feel like nothing is working because the puck keeps ending up in the back of the net. You never feel comfortable playing your defensive style because you know you don't have the goaltending to ultimately execute it. The losses pile up, you get sucked into more run and gun games, you lose your structure, the players lose faith in the coaching and the system, and it comes crashing down.

Boucher was Yzerman's fall guy. Yzerman failed miserably to acquire a legitimate starting caliber goaltender until he finally got Ben Bishop. By then, it was already too late for Boucher. Yzerman failed him.

The same thing is happening in Ottawa. Dorion is failing Boucher. The goaltending in year two has been downright abysmal. Craig Anderson and Mike Condon have shown their truer colors. Nothing has been done to upgrade the mobility/skill of the D, and nothing has been done to upgrade the top level skill of the forward group to help this team become more than a bubble playoff team.

Duchene for Turris was a lateral move. Overpaid has beens like Dion and Bobby clogging the cap with immovable contracts. Losing the Brassard, Duchene, and Burrows deals. Losing Methot without adequately replacing him. Signing Johnny Oduya for a top 4 role.

The narrative of "Boucher Burn out" is aggravating me. It's just not accurate. He is an excellent tactical coach. He is intense, but with success that intensity is not problematic. He has taken two teams to the door step of the SCF. His GM's have failed him. His goaltending in Tampa Bay was a league-worst scenario that caused the team to ultimately unravel. Similar things are now happening in Ottawa. After a year one overachievement, Water is now seeking its level with Ottawa's goaltending and defensive corps. Dorion's poor moves and over valuation of his team's talent level are slowly sinking the ship.

Hey that may be one of the best posts I've read on these boards.

 

[Langdon Alger]

Well Dorion said Boucher was the first choice so it must be true. It's not like Dorion has ever said anything to cover Melnyk's ass or anything.

It’s possible he’s telling the truth. It’s also possible he’s lying. Some people would rather believe he’s lying because it’s suits their “OMG this team is so cheap” narrative.

 

[BonkTastic]

it’s suits their “OMG this team is so cheap” narrative.

But... it's not a baseless narrative anymore. The owner himself just confirmed it. The team IS cheap. That's an undeniable fact at this point.

Whether or not Dorion is lying or telling the truth, we'll probably never know. That part is basically educated guesses at this point. People can think they know a thing or not. For instance, my best guess is that Boucher was our choice for salary reasons. That was probably the tie breaker. Do I know this as a fact? No. That's just my best guess. A personal opinion. We'll never know anyways, so it's not like it matters much in the long run.

The "this team is so cheap" part though, that's not speculation anymore. We're past that now. This team is, objectively, cheap.

 

[thinkwild]

I woulda thought that naturally with Boucher being French it contributed along with the their shared view of the game and ability to work together to make him a natural hire for Dorion.

And i agree, that was a great post GuyBoucherEvilGenius, although im still not totally against the retooling attempts of Ryan, Brassard, and Duchene. And am still holding out hope, it does have a chance to come together still.

But i seem to recall multiple post game threads with comments like: Mr Anderson! , and the infamous: Start the car! #1 goaltending made a huge difference in the past. Confiming the old axiom - show me a great goaltender and i'll show you a great coach.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

The problem is, like fellow defensive oriented coaches whose systems are rooted in neutral zone trapping (Jacques Lemaire), Guy Boucher takes bad teams and makes them average, takes average teams and makes them good. His teams frequently over achieve in year one, and It does him a disservice. It sets up unrealistic expectations going forward because the "talent" on the team is overrated as a result.

This core group of Senators players had been the definition of a bubble playoff team before Boucher got here, finishing between 7th and 11th in the Eastern Conference. Boucher comes in and emphasizes a defense-first neutral zone trapping system that is frustrating/boring to play against. However, it is effective. Ottawa was fifth in the conference in goals against with Boucher. The previous year they were second to last. Under Boucher, They scored 212 goals and gave up 214 - They played in lots of close one goal games as a result of their system and built a great deal of confidence in winning those close hard fought games. This translated to the playoffs, where so many games are one goal games or go to OT, and the foundation the Sens had built in these types of situations enabled them to go on a deep run Game 7 of the ECF.

The problem is fans, media, and most notably Sens management (especially Dorion) attributed the success to the "talent" of the roster. Nothing exemplifies this more than the perpetual "this team was one goal away from a SCF appearance" notion Dorion has been pushing since the summer.

That thought process couldn't be more wrong. This group at its core is still a bubble playoff team in terms of talent level. Compare our group of forwards to other good teams in the league. Where do we rank? Pretty low in my estimation. Even bad teams have like Carolina and Buffalo have more impressive offensive pieces than we do - guys like Aho, Skinner, Teravainen, Eichel, Kane. Our D corps is bottom five in the league without Methot. It is slow, plodding, thin, and offers very little mobility or offense besides Karlsson. Our goaltending is also bottom 10 in the league. Anderson is pedestrian at best and aging, Condon is a third string fringe NHL goalie.

The problem is water always seeks its level. No matter how good the system or coaching is, the talent always shows its true colors at various points in time. This losing streak was a prime example.

The same thing happened in Tampa Bay. Boucher over achieved in his first season - knocking out the Penguins who suffered injuries to Crosby and Malkin, sweeping Washington who was the #1 team in the East in, and losing by one goal in Game 7 of the ECF to eventual Cup champion Boston.

He had more talent up and down his lineup (Lecavalier, St Louis, Malone, Stamkos, Gagne, Hedman, Kubina, Ohlund, Brewer), but he had NOTHING in the crease. A goalie trio of Dwayne Roloson, Dan Ellis, and a young Mike Smith. Dwayne Roloson was his #1 goaltender. The following season it was a tandem of Roloson and Garon. And in his final season it was the "dynamic duo" of Anders Lindback and Garon.

This was his downfall in Tampa. Not burnout, not the system being figured out, not an inability to adapt, etc. We've all seen it many times before - When you don't have a legitimate #1 goalie, you're screwed. How many talented Flyers teams have toiled away in mediocrity with guys like Brian Boucher or Michael Leighton in the net? Tampa Bay also dealt with some big injuries - guys like Hedman, Malone, and Lecavalier missed 15-20 games each in 2011-12. Ohlund never played in the NHL again after 2010-11. Some secondary scoring was lost after 2010-11 when Simon Gagne left. But the goaltending is what really undid Boucher in the two seasons following the ECF run. You can only overcome giving up bad soft goals for so long. The players and coaches get frustrated. No matter what changes you make, you feel like nothing is working because the puck keeps ending up in the back of the net. You never feel comfortable playing your defensive style because you know you don't have the goaltending to ultimately execute it. The losses pile up, you get sucked into more run and gun games, you lose your structure, the players lose faith in the coaching and the system, and it comes crashing down.

Boucher was Yzerman's fall guy. Yzerman failed miserably to acquire a legitimate starting caliber goaltender until he finally got Ben Bishop. By then, it was already too late for Boucher. Yzerman failed him.

The same thing is happening in Ottawa. Dorion is failing Boucher. The goaltending in year two has been downright abysmal. Craig Anderson and Mike Condon have shown their truer colors. Nothing has been done to upgrade the mobility/skill of the D, and nothing has been done to upgrade the top level skill of the forward group to help this team become more than a bubble playoff team.

Duchene for Turris was a lateral move. Overpaid has beens like Dion and Bobby clogging the cap with immovable contracts. Losing the Brassard, Duchene, and Burrows deals. Losing Methot without adequately replacing him. Signing Johnny Oduya for a top 4 role.

The narrative of "Boucher Burn out" is aggravating me. It's just not accurate. He is an excellent tactical coach. He is intense, but with success that intensity is not problematic. He has taken two teams to the door step of the SCF. His GM's have failed him. His goaltending in Tampa Bay was a league-worst scenario that caused the team to ultimately unravel. Similar things are now happening in Ottawa. After a year one overachievement, Water is now seeking its level with Ottawa's goaltending and defensive corps. Dorion's poor moves and over valuation of his team's talent level are slowly sinking the ship.

Best Post I've read in a while.. Very well written. Very insightful. Thank you

 

[GuyBoucherEvilGenius]

Wow, well done.

Hey that may be one of the best posts I've read on these boards.

Best Post I've read in a while.. Very well written. Very insightful. Thank you

Thanks! Appreciate the kind words!

 

[Langdon Alger]

But... it's not a baseless narrative anymore. The owner himself just confirmed it. The team IS cheap. That's an undeniable fact at this point.

Whether or not Dorion is lying or telling the truth, we'll probably never know. That part is basically educated guesses at this point. People can think they know a thing or not. For instance, my best guess is that Boucher was our choice for salary reasons. That was probably the tie breaker. Do I know this as a fact? No. That's just my best guess. A personal opinion. We'll never know anyways, so it's not like it matters much in the long run.

The "this team is so cheap" part though, that's not speculation anymore. We're past that now. This team is, objectively, cheap.

But just because they hired Boucher doesn’t mean they were being cheap. Maybe Dorion just liked Boucher more than any of the other candidates. If other teams hire rookie coaches or a guy who doesn’t make that much, they aren’t called cheap.

The whole “they couldn’t afford Boudreau” or “they didn’t want to pay him” is speculation, not fact. It comes from the team having the reputation of being cheap.

 

[Back in Black]

He throws a nice smile and kisses after a win......

 

[DJB]

So Andy stands on his head and yet we still lose. We give up way too many high percentage scoring chances and we don't have any sustained offensive pressure . We are 30th in offensive zone time with the puck . That's just brutal .

The team is too skilled to play a defensive game, we need to win games by having the puck and creating scoring chances and keeping the puck in the offensive zone. Other teams can't score if we have the puck in their zone.

I'm suprised we don't play with two forwards and 3 defenceman with his system.

Boucher is awful.

 

[Joeyjoejoe]

The coach is a one trick pony. Not a sustainable elite coach we were all sold on by management when they first hired him. His special teams suck, his defense structure is already exposed by NHL teams, his team's offensive pressure is the worst in the league, he can't develop young players, relies on old veteran plugs.

 

[Fandlauer]

He's one of the lowest paid coaches in the NHL. Who are we going to replace him with, while covering both salaries? Who's the current coach of the Kanata Lasers?

 

[Upgrayedd]

Would love for Guy to play the young guys more, the real issue was not replacing a top 2 Dman and top 6 Forward, we have seen it year after year here perhaps its lack of funds or sheer idiocy but it has been a trend for as long as I can remember, the team relies on unknowns but then doesn't trust them nor give them icetime, few other competitive teams if any do this.

 

[Micklebot]

Mike Yeo looking pretty good in StL... I was leaning towards him early on with Boucher as my darkhorse (under the assumption that Boudreau and Julien weren't available).

Boucher for the most part successfully got ride of the benny hill style defensive zone coverage from the McLean and Cameron days, but at the expense of our offense.

I feel like some sort of hybrid of McLean and Boucher would make a pretty good coach, so long as you could convince "it" to play rookies and not lean on the 3rd line.

 

[Joeyjoejoe]

He's one of the lowest paid coaches in the NHL. Who are we going to replace him with, while covering both salaries? Who's the current coach of the Kanata Lasers?

link to his salary? Cap Friendly has him as "unknown"

 

[Micklebot]

He's one of the lowest paid coaches in the NHL. Who are we going to replace him with, while covering both salaries? Who's the current coach of the Kanata Lasers?

Well, the obvious answer is Crawford. Our coaching hire was built to have a backup plan in place.

To my knowlege, Boucher's salary has never been disclosed, so we don't know if he's among the lowest paid, though that's certainly a posibility.

 

[Fandlauer]

link to his salary? Cap Friendly has him as "unknown"

During Melnyk's meltdown, one of the big TSN guys came out and said to his knowledge Boucher had one of the lowest HC salaries in the league. It may be Dreger's 31 thoughts, or Bobby Mac may have written it, but it's out there if you search for it. It was just written a couple days ago, but my memory is junk and I forget who wrote it exactly lol

 

[Fandlauer]

Melnyk: Senators ‘could look good somewhere else’ - Article - TSN

Melnyk did, however, admit that the Senators are down to bare bones staff. An NHL source also told TSN that coach Guy Boucher is one of the lowest-paid head coaches in the league.

 

[Micklebot]

Melnyk: Senators ‘could look good somewhere else’ - Article - TSN

Thanks! Confirmed what we all expected, so he makes around 800k-1 mil I'd guess.

 

[Micklebot]

From that article,

“If you open a grocery store and nobody comes, but one opens two blocks down and there’s a line outside, where are you going to have your store?”

Sorry, but if the grocery store 2 blocks aways has a lineup, and yours has no customers, the issue isn't likely location, it's your product.

Perhaps Ottawa isn't a fan of defensive systems, particularly defensive systems that seem to be constantly outplayed and rely on goaltending (unlike the Martin days, when we were defensive, and outplayed the opposition)

 

[Agent Zub]

Thanks! Appreciate the kind words!

Boucher is a coach who likes to micro manage what happens on the ice. That's why he's able to have success with bad teams but ultimately his team turns on him. Because he's too rigid. His usage of rookies and vets are a testament to this.

Not to mention the players themselves who say it is the most complex system they've played and this it takes weeks to get acclimated.

I mean Boucher refuses to watch warm ups because he can't stand his players being so "loose" on the ice.

Can you imagine playing for a guy as intense as that for more than a year?

And I agree that the senators are a crap roster, but the Boucher burnout is real.

He's a control freak.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

If Boucher is part of the problem , he is only a part... Problem starts with Melnyk who needs to let a GM do their job to retool and get rid of bad contracts. Dorion is not the guy imo. He has overpaid on trades, and extensions. The way good young players are being developed is highly questionable at both levels. All around the league we see players who achieved less coming up, have key roles, and/or find success in the NHL. Boucher is part of that but not all of it. There are so many problems right now.. with the roster depth, with the systems and lack of execution. If we get a 1st this year, we lose it next year. No 2nd this year. We can recoup picks, but that will likely make the pick next year better. Need to extend some key players to big contracts, and our owner is crying poor.

 

[bert]

So Andy stands on his head and yet we still lose. We give up way too many high percentage scoring chances and we don't have any sustained offensive pressure . We are 30th in offensive zone time with the puck . That's just brutal .

The team is too skilled to play a defensive game, we need to win games by having the puck and creating scoring chances and keeping the puck in the offensive zone. Other teams can't score if we have the puck in their zone.

I'm suprised we don't play with two forwards and 3 defenceman with his system.

Boucher is awful.

The coach doesnt let them forcheck ofcourse they are going to be last in offensive zone time. Its awful to watch, I just have no interest in this team. Terribly run organization, a GM that should have never been anything more than a scout, an owner that chastizes its fans and a coach that doesnt try to score.

 

[DJB]

We dont forecheck because of our awful system. It needs to go. This system is archaic and would have been genius in the 90s . But this NHL is built on speed and skill not this crap.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

There's nothing positive about this system. Can't score, can't defend, can't score on the PP, and can't kill penalties. I don't even get excited for goals anymore because I know having the lead is pretty much meaningless.

Yet still he's too stubborn to make any changes. Has a rookie ever broke out under Boucher before? I can't see it ever happening. I'd rather have Chabot playing top minutes in Belleville than whatever the hell he's doing up here.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

If Boucher is part of the problem , he is only a part... Problem starts with Melnyk who needs to let a GM do their job to retool and get rid of bad contracts. Dorion is not the guy imo. He has overpaid on trades, and extensions. The way good young players are being developed is highly questionable at both levels. All around the league we see players who achieved less coming up, have key roles, and/or find success in the NHL. Boucher is part of that but not all of it. There are so many problems right now.. with the roster depth, with the systems and lack of execution. If we get a 1st this year, we lose it next year. No 2nd this year. We can recoup picks, but that will likely make the pick next year better. Need to extend some key players to big contracts, and our owner is crying poor.

It's a broken record but the coach and GM are just what this organization can afford.

If we had an owner(s) with deeper pockets, Boudreau would be behind the bench right now.