Zegras/Drysdale vs Raymond/Seider vs Stützle/Sanderson

Zegras/Drysdale vs Raymond/Seider vs Stützle/Sanderson


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Golden_Jet

Registered User
Sep 21, 2005
22,780
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I used 12.5% for my math. Stutzles career shooting percentage at 13 is inflated with a 17.1% season, he was also shooting 8.6% at the time.

17.1 - 12.5 = 4.6
12.5 - 8.6 = 3.9

Not that dumb at all
Lmao, that’s how averages work dude, you use all them,
If you want to throw out the high score, then you also throw out the low score, that’s how statistics work,
To get the true average you use all the %.

What a disengenious post you made lol, but not shocked, and yes you can’t do math, you’ve now proven that.
 
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trentmccleary

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Mar 2, 2002
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People are offended that a guy was called a '60 point player', even though he has never actually scored 60 points in any of his 2 1/2 seasons? He is on pace for 67 points, which is still '60 points' and he has a history of declining production late in the season, so even the 19 points he needs in the next 32 games to hit 60 isn't a sure thing.
 
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newfy

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Jul 28, 2010
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Lmao, that’s how averages work dude, you use all them,
If you want to throw out the high score, then you also throw out the low score, that’s how statistics work,
To get the true average you use all the %.

What a disengenious post you made lol, but not shocked, and yes you can’t do math, you’ve now proven that.

I know how averages work, and when youre projecting a career, you can say that above 17% is likely an outlier. I'm not saying his average isnt 13% right now, I'm saying if more than 33% of your sample is likely an outlier, you can adjust when projecting. I actually used the numbers from the sens fan I was replying to, who agrees its a likely outlier, try to keep up, reading is hard.

"I literally said he's not likely to maintain 17%. I'd think 12-13% would be a reasonable guess." - Cornerstone.

So I used his numbers and went with 12.5%. He was disagreeing that 8.6 was closer to what his career will be, then gave a number range that quite literally using math, the vast majority of that range is actually closer to 8.6 than 17.1. Literally 84% of the sens fan I replied to's number range is closer to 8.6%.

Read it over a couple times before you reply to make sure you understand

People are offended that a guy was called a '60 point player going forward', even though he has never actually scored 60 points in any of his 2 1/2 seasons? He is on pace for 67 points, which is still '60 points' and he has a history of declining production late in the season, so even the 19 points he needs in the next 32 games to hit 60 isn't a sure thing.

I added the bold to see where people have a problem. You think the 21 year old on pace for 67 points isnt going to improve at all going forward?
 

trentmccleary

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I added the bold to see where people have a problem. You think the 21 year old on pace for 67 points isnt going to improve at all going forward?

They're being directly compared. and they were born 2 months apart. Whatever improvements that Raymond could make could also be gained by Stutzle.
Raymond has already gained this season after scoring at 57 point and 50 paces the past 2 seasons, he's now on pace for 67 points. Even though that is a substantial gain, you're still upset that people aren't giving him credit for a lot more unrealized potential verses another equally young player.
Are you going to start implying that Stutzle won't improve and the only thing that will happen in the future is that Raymond will close a 25% gap in production?
 

newfy

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Jul 28, 2010
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They're being directly compared. and they were born 2 months apart. Whatever improvements that Raymond could make could also be gained by Stutzle.
Raymond has already gained this season after scoring at 57 point and 50 paces the past 2 seasons, he's now on pace for 67 points. Even though that is a substantial gain, you're still upset that people aren't giving him credit for a lot more unrealized potential verses another equally young player.
Are you going to start implying that Stutzle won't improve and the only thing that will happen in the future is that Raymond will close a 25% gap in production?
No, and I've said multiple times in this thread that saying Raymond is going to improve offensively going forward means literally nothing about Stutzle. Youre able to say Raymond isnt just a 60 point player going forward without involving Stutzle's production in the conversation at all

Its simple, do you think Raymond is a 60 point player going forward? If the answer is no, then you fall in the exact same boat as me.
 

jbeck5

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Jan 26, 2009
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Crazy cherry picked stats by that newfy guy lmao he just literally made up his own average.

This is actually so hilarious. Thanks for that.
 

Pavels Dog

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Feb 18, 2013
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I would take Stutzle over Seider pretty easily. And I think Raymond is pretty obviously the weakest link, he's ES production was pretty awful last year. He had a hot 20 games to start his career but hasn't been that great since.
Raymond is not close to Stutzle, just stop.
It's ridiculous to compare both, Stutzle is far ahead of Raymond even in his worse season so far, while the later is having the season of his life.
Last 44 GP:

Raymond - 19G, 23A, 42PTS, -8
Stützle - 11G, 26A, 37PTS, -20

Raymond also now has more ES points than Stützle this season.
 

koyvoo

Registered User
Nov 8, 2014
17,268
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Last 44 GP:

Raymond - 19G, 23A, 42PTS, -8
Stützle - 11G, 26A, 37PTS, -20

Raymond also now has more ES points than Stützle this season.
Just for historical record, who would you take for the rest of their careers between Raymond and Stutzle, based on your assessment of these two players abilities?
 

Pavels Dog

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Feb 18, 2013
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Just for historical record, who would you take for the rest of their careers between Raymond and Stutzle, based on your assessment of these two players abilities?
Stützle, as I've said many, many times before and after the draft.
 

NyQuil

Big F$&*in Q
Jan 5, 2005
95,717
60,019
Ottawa, ON
Last 44 GP:

Seider - 3G, 15A, 18PTS, -8
Sanderson - 6G, 11A, 17PTS, +7

Sanderson also has the same amount of ES points this season (23).
 

Sweetpotato

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Jan 10, 2014
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I originally went with the Detroit pair because I was high on seider for years and thought he was going to be chasing Norris' by now. He's still obviously amazing. Sanderson has closed the gap though and Stuzle is a tier above Raymond in terms of talent. They're close in production though. At this point it's the Ottawa pair by a hair as I think if Ottawa ever turns the corner both Sanderson and Stutzles play will hit a new high.

Could absolutely go either way tho.
 
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RedHawkDown

still trying to trust the yzerplan
Aug 26, 2011
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Next year will be telling for Seider if they make his usage a bit less insane. If he’s still putting up similar metrics with more standards 1D deployment, then I’ll have cause for concern.

Raymond will be a superstar. 90 pts by him next year. I’m sure of it.
 
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schuelma24

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Jul 14, 2023
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Last 44 GP:

Seider - 3G, 15A, 18PTS, -8
Sanderson - 6G, 11A, 17PTS, +7

Sanderson also has the same amount of ES points this season (23).

I have no problem conceding Seider didn't have an amazing year and Sanderson has closed the gap with a good year. Sens fans willing to say the same about Stutzle and Raymond?
 
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NyQuil

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Jan 5, 2005
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I have no problem conceding Seider didn't have an amazing year and Sanderson has closed the gap with a good year. Sens fans willing to say the same about Stutzle and Raymond?

Sure.

Anyone who says Stutzle had a good year in terms of living up to his potential is lying.

When this poll was made, Sanderson hadn't even played a game in the NHL yet. That's why it's fun to read the first few pages of the thread.
 
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RedHawkDown

still trying to trust the yzerplan
Aug 26, 2011
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Lucas Raymond now has 1 more point than Stutzle this season. I think this will be an interesting poll to revisit next year. I believe Raymond will be a 90 pt player next year. But Sanderson also might totally erase the gap between him and Seider if Seider doesn’t have a better year next year. Becomes quite interesting then.
 

CornerStone61

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Apr 13, 2015
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Lucas Raymond now has 1 more point than Stutzle this season. I think this will be an interesting poll to revisit next year. I believe Raymond will be a 90 pt player next year. But Sanderson also might totally erase the gap between him and Seider if Seider doesn’t have a better year next year. Becomes quite interesting then.
Stutzle has been out injured since the Florida game. Likely done for the year. I'll eat crow on Raymond though, definitely outperforming my expectations.
 
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Bileur

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Jun 15, 2004
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You're reaching if you think what I said is similar to the posts I quoted about Stützle/Raymond.

Meh, seems you’ve said some pretty similar things.

There are big problems with what you are trying to argue here. I'm not sure if it's an honest attempt at debate or just trying to find a "loophole".

You can never assume development like Seider's. It would be as silly as if I rated Sanderson at #14 in the Wings pool because MAYBE Sanderson will totally bust. Nah, the reality is an expected development trajectory, being somewhat realistic, leads Sanderson comfortably on a path to being a #2-3D. Drysdale something similar, but I'd have his floor lower. That still means they're awesome, awesome prospects.

I'm not rating Veleno ahead of those guys you mention because I'm assuming he's going to explode, I'm simply seeing his development trajectory and projecting it in a somewhat realistic manner. Even his doubters are pretty much in agreement we're looking at a #3rd line C at worst. Guys like Abramov and Balcers really have to become pretty legit top 6 wingers to be more valuable than that, and I'm not sure I see the realistic expectations for those guys as being that caliber of player.

When talking about development trajectories it's also a lot easier to project players once they have at least 1 or 2 post-draft seasons, and especially once they play pro hockey. I don't need to see Veleno as a point-per game player in the AHL in his d+5 to know he could do that, and I can pretty safely say he will be an NHL regular faster than Balcers/Abramov.


It really does not matter one bit why Abramov "became older".. what matters it that he's older and Veleno is about 1 year ahead in the development trajectory.

A small age difference doesn't mean much if one prospect is clearly ahead of the other. Yes Veleno was a few months older, but he was clearly ahead of Abramov as a prospect. After that, Veleno became a pro 1 year earlier (8 months younger), and that means it becomes even tougher for Abramov to make up the difference in their status. Abramov would have needed to not only perform comparable to the younger Veleno, but clearly outperform him. He didn't.


You implied that Balcers performance in the Norway league was an indication he had not been set back. I countered that there's no way one can read his performance over there in any such way. It's a really weak league that anyone with NHL caliber skill should easily dominate.
I absolutely think he's a longshot. A 2015 late round pick that had 3 points in 15 NHL games last season? Come on. I understand these undersized, skilled guys are fun prospects but you also have to take into account how likely they are to actually make it.


Except JBD isn't more proven. There is some difficulty in comparing when players are at completely different leagues and levels, but most people would rate SHL as a much, much harder league than NCAA.
You can not compare Docker's performance at NCAA with what Seider has already proven at the pro level. You seem to think older= automatically more proven. That's not how it works. That's not how any of this works. Seider wouldn't really be more proven than Sanderson/Drysdale if he had just survived at the AHL and SHL level. If he had put up half the numbers he has, gotten less icetime etc. The reason he's more proven is because he has shown to be a dominant D-man at these levels which indicates a strong trajectory of reaching the more hopeful outlooks for his potential.

Drysdale looks damn good. I can't not go with Seider though. That size will always be a major asset and he has a physical game that you can't teach.


Sanderson is good but should and likely would be distant 3rd in a 3-way poll.

To be fair, Seider was way ahead of Sanderson at the time. Just like Stutzle was way ahead of Raymond. The latter two have just closed the gap.
 
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newfy

Registered User
Jul 28, 2010
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Seider is still ahead of Sanderson. Raymond had a noticeably better season than Stutzle this year.

Poll results are still exactly how they should be
 

GIN ANTONIC

Registered User
Aug 19, 2007
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You're reaching if you think what I said is similar to the posts I quoted about Stützle/Raymond.
He's not. He's got you dead to rights on the quotes and context... and I voted for the Detroit duo.

I'll still stand by that pick but gap has closed considerably after this year. As has been mentioned, next year will be very telling.
 
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