Confirmed with Link: Zadina and Seider officially loaned to European Teams

[newfy]

How many top pair D who couldn't shoot have you seen on a Cup contender?

I know I keep harping on the same issue, but people here need their expectations tempered a bit. He will more than likely be a damn good defender though, and a physical presence that all Cup teams want. Just too early to proclaim him as top pair.

I dont think "he cant shoot" is really close to true. He has a heavy wrister that gets in on net and will probably create enough chances for him to produce at least decently offensively. He doesnt use a slap shot or one timer though, to the point where I dont know if he has much of one or not. But honestly thats the one tool hes missing and you definitely dont need a hard slapshot to be a top pairing guy if you can get pucks on net and the offensive side of things isnt even what will be his calling card.

A guy like Ryan Suter is absolutely a number one dman and he has a bit of a muffin that he rarely uses as a shot as an obvious example. I think guys like Jaccob Slavin and Vlasic are other examples

 

[Gniwder]

I dont think "he cant shoot" is really close to true. He has a heavy wrister that gets in on net and will probably create enough chances for him to produce at least decently offensively. He doesnt use a slap shot or one timer though, to the point where I dont know if he has much of one or not. But honestly thats the one tool hes missing and you definitely dont need a hard slapshot to be a top pairing guy if you can get pucks on net and the offensive side of things isnt even what will be his calling card.

A guy like Ryan Suter is absolutely a number one dman and he has a bit of a muffin that he rarely uses as a shot as an obvious example. I think guys like Jaccob Slavin and Vlasic are other examples

I picked the first video on NHL for each guy:

Suter:


Slavin:


Vlasic:


Seider in practice (slapshots towards the end, I've already posted this before):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbx1PvR9hps

Vlasic is by far the weakest of the NHLers, he doesn't do a full wind up or follow through and doesn't get as much flex on the stick. Still a lot more than Seider puts on his. But is Vlasic really a top pair D on a Cup contender? Maybe if he got paired with Carlson, Pietra, or Hedman. Then again, Kempny was on the first pair with Carlson. You can pair a mediocre Dman with an elite one. But even Kempny has a slapshot:

Kempny's blistering slap shot


It's a required skill. Definitely on the PP, it puts the team at a disadvantage if the opposing team knows the Dman can't shoot.

He also doesn;t get much flex on the stick with the wrister either.

 

[sully6one]

Lidstrom didn’t have a hard shot, but it got through. Not worried about how hard a defensemen shoots, he’s not a trigger man.

 

[Gniwder]

Lidstrom didn’t have a hard shot, but it got through. Not worried about how hard a defensemen shoots, he’s not a trigger man.

How many players do you know that have beat an NHL goalie from the center line?


Once again, look at the flex on the stick. The skilled players know how to let the stick do the work, and we all know Nicky had mad skillz.

 

[Ezekial]

I can wince only so many times a day.

 

[lidstromiscool]

Lidstrom didn’t have a hard shot, but it got through. Not worried about how hard a defensemen shoots, he’s not a trigger man.

Exactly, I think having a hard shot as a defensemen is great to have, but its the most overrated attribute. If the only thing you're concerned about with a dman is that his shot isn't hard, then you have one heck of a dman.

 

[Gniwder]

Exactly, I think having a hard shot as a defensemen is great to have, but its the most overrated attribute. If the only thing you're concerned about with a dman is that his shot isn't hard, then you have one heck of a dman.

Watch the video I posted. Lidstrom had a pretty good slapshot. I have no idea where you guys are coming from. Especially given your username.

It's not necessary to have Ovehckin/Chara shot, but if he's gonna get any PP time, at least an NHL average slap shot is necessary.

 

[Henkka]

Lidström could blast very hard shots, but he was too smart to know that accuracy and timing for screen is more important and rarely did use the full power. More of easily repeatable "golf-swings".

 

[Pavels Dog]

Seider is projecting to be good (if not great) defensively, decent puck mover, and low/mid end offensively, though a decent passer so he'll get some assists. He'll be top pair if paired up with an offensive juggernaut. Then again, a true elite #1D can make just about any partner look good. Lidstrom did it, Carlson's doing it now, etc.

Imagine thinking that Seider doesn't project as elite defensively or that he's just a decent passer.

Seider in practice (slapshots towards the end, I've already posted this before):

You have correctly identified one area of weakness, his shot, and specifically his slapshot; the problem is you are exaggerating how big of a weakness it is (that practice video is not evidence of anything) and underrating his other qualities.

I would say this is a good look at some of what makes him good offensively:


He's great at holding the blueline, he generally makes quick decisions, good passes and gets pucks on net. Maybe not with booming slapshots, but well enough that it's fairly easy to project that he can be a ~5 goal, ~30+ assist D, conservatively.

Hopefully he keeps working on his slapshot but it's just not the massive issue you make it into.

 

[newfy]

I picked the first video on NHL for each guy:

Suter:


Slavin:


Vlasic:


Seider in practice (slapshots towards the end, I've already posted this before):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbx1PvR9hps

Vlasic is by far the weakest of the NHLers, he doesn't do a full wind up or follow through and doesn't get as much flex on the stick. Still a lot more than Seider puts on his. But is Vlasic really a top pair D on a Cup contender? Maybe if he got paired with Carlson, Pietra, or Hedman. Then again, Kempny was on the first pair with Carlson. You can pair a mediocre Dman with an elite one. But even Kempny has a slapshot:

Kempny's blistering slap shot


It's a required skill. Definitely on the PP, it puts the team at a disadvantage if the opposing team knows the Dman can't shoot.

He also doesn;t get much flex on the stick with the wrister either.

We're talking about 3 players who have a combined 2500 career games played logging huge minutes, obviously youre going to be able to find a couple highlights of them scoring with slapshots but it doesnt change the fact that the shot on all three of those guys is a weakness. I also have no clue what that video of Seider messing around after a practice is supposed to prove to be honest, cant take anything from that at all.

And yes, Vlasic was absolutely a top pairing dman for a long time. He was top pairing on a cup contender that lost in the finals and he was good enough to make a ridiculously stacked Canadian olympic team. He might've been under the radar but for a stretch he was consideed the best shutdown D in the league by a lot of people and definitely didnt need an all offense partner to do that.

And honestly, the way youre describing these guys shots it sounds like you think if their sticks dont flex a lot that they dont have a good shot, doesnt make a lot of sense to me

 

[lidstromiscool]

Watch the video I posted. Lidstrom had a pretty good slapshot. I have no idea where you guys are coming from. Especially given your username.

It's not necessary to have Ovehckin/Chara shot, but if he's gonna get any PP time, at least an NHL average slap shot is necessary.

I never said Lidstrom had a bad shot. Lidstrom probably had a top 10 if not top 5 shot of all-time from the point. Not only could he get it through every shot, it was also insanely hard. My point is that having a hard shot doesn't equal a good shot. Seider will definitely get some PP time regardless of his shot. And I would guess Seider has an NHL caliber shot right now anyways.

 

[Gniwder]

Lidström could blast very hard shots, but he was too smart to know that accuracy and timing for screen is more important and rarely did use the full power. More of easily repeatable "golf-swings".

He was doing it so Holmstrom could deflect it. Also did bank passes off the end board. But he took hard shots when appropriate as well. We're talking about one of the smartest players to ever play the game. But the fact of the matter is, it's a skill he had in his toolbox, and he did have a decent slapper.

Imagine thinking that Seider doesn't project as elite defensively or that he's just a decent passer.

The word elite gets thrown around here so often it's hilarious. For me, elite means top 10, for example Larkin's speed. I'm not putting any player on that list until they go up against NHLers.

Decent might be an understatement, he's on target with his passes, but he also telegraphs them. That could be dangerous with some of the speedsters in the NHL.

And honestly, the way youre describing these guys shots it sounds like you think if their sticks dont flex a lot that they dont have a good shot, doesnt make a lot of sense to me

You don't play hockey, do you?

Seider will definitely get some PP time regardless of his shot. And I would guess Seider has an NHL caliber shot right now anyways.

A player should get PP time based on skill set, not draft position. If he has an NHL level shot, I'd like to see a video, because I have yet to see him use it.

I'm happy with the pick and his progress, but it's such an HFBoards thing to overhype prospects. The word elite keeps getting thrown around, and I just don't think he's going to be the game breaker like Hedman, Carlson, and Pietra. That's all.

 

[newfy]

You don't play hockey, do you?

Lol I've plenty of hockey at a decent level. Youre posting videos of a guy dinking around after practice in training camp and trying to judge his shot based off how much their stick flexes compared to other guys cherry picked youtube clips. I dont think anyone who has actually played hockey would try to pull that but please feel free to go on and enlighten us

 

[Gniwder]

Lol I've plenty of hockey at a decent level. Youre posting videos of a guy dinking around after practice in training camp and trying to judge his shot based off how much their stick flexes compared to other guys cherry picked youtube clips. I dont think anyone who has actually played hockey would try to pull that but please feel free to go on and enlighten us

It's the only Seider slapshot I could find. If you can find a clip, by all means share. Quite frankly, wouldn't you be shooting harder in practice than in a game? It's not as if you have to worry about whiffing or breaking a stick.

The clips aren't cherry picked, I just selected the first one that showed up on Google. Aside from Vlasic, that's about the norm for each player anyways. Vlasic is a bit more inconsistent, he usually does have a little less oomph.

So you don't bother selecting your sticks based on flex? Optimizing the flex to your shot increases your velocity considerably. The power comes from the stick unflexing....

 

[RedMenace]

So you don't bother selecting your sticks based on flex? Optimizing the flex to your shot increases your velocity considerably. The power comes from the stick unflexing....

Not to derail, but you're almost contradicting yourself here. A lot of flex doesn't mean automatically hard shots, and it varies wildly between players. Do harder shooters generally have more stick flex? Yes, but too much flex is a bad thing, just like in golf, or string tension in tennis. If a guy can get the timing down with a stiffer flex, what's to say his shot will be any worse than the next guy, let alone "the average," which you're saying Seider doesn't even meet? You have to take into consideration things like leverage, stick speed, wrist movement, etc, not just stick flex.

 

[Gniwder]

Not to derail, but you're almost contradicting yourself here. A lot of flex doesn't mean automatically hard shots, and it varies wildly between players. Do harder shooters generally have more stick flex? Yes, but too much flex is a bad thing, just like in golf, or string tension in tennis. If a guy can get the timing down with a stiffer flex, what's to say his shot will be any worse than the next guy, let alone "the average," which you're saying Seider doesn't even meet? You have to take into consideration things like leverage, stick speed, wrist movement, etc, not just stick flex.

You want to match the flex to your swing, you should have an optimum flex. A stiff flex is no good unless you have the power to flex it. Certainly a big guy could overflex a soft stick and not optimize the output, but it'll still go. So I agree with you there.

However, if there's no flex in the stick when you're taking a shot, you've got issues. That's what I see with Seider. Watch the video.

Absolutely, there are other factors. But try hitting just the puck without flexing the stick, and you'll see how hard it is to get power with just speed or wrist action.

In any case, show me a video where Seider gets real speed on a puck... I have yet to see one.

 

[RedMenace]

You want to match the flex to your swing, you should have an optimum flex. A stiff flex is no good unless you have the power to flex it. Certainly a big guy could overflex a soft stick and not optimize the output, but it'll still go. So I agree with you there.

However, if there's no flex in the stick when you're taking a shot, you've got issues. That's what I see with Seider. Watch the video.

Absolutely, there are other factors. But try hitting just the puck without flexing the stick, and you'll see how hard it is to get power with just speed or wrist action.

In any case, show me a video where Seider gets real speed on a puck... I have yet to see one.

That video shows, and let's be reality, not much. He wasn't putting any effort into the power of the shots, especially the wristers, and his wind-ups on the "slapshots" weren't even 1/3 of a back scratcher. I honestly don't know how you could come to any kind of conclusions about a player's shot from a clip like that.

I can't, because I don't have access to SHL replays, and I'm too lazy to look for them.

 

[Gniwder]

That video shows, and let's be reality, not much. He wasn't putting any effort into the power of the shots, especially the wristers, and his wind-ups on the "slapshots" weren't even 1/3 of a back scratcher. I honestly don't know how you could come to any kind of conclusions about a player's shot from a clip like that.

I can't, because I don't have access to SHL replays, and I'm too lazy to look for them.

I've already agreed that practice shots aren't the most ideal way to judge a recruit, but I'd still expect a little more than that even if it was just for the cameras.

I don't have SHL access either, I'm just wondering why everyone is now proclaiming that he's elite after 10 games in the SHL. All I see are replays of very solid defensive plays, nothing spectacular. Sure, I like what I see, but the original argument was he's top pair on a Cup contender and an elite NHL defender. I just wouldn't take it that far yet.

 

[Pavels Dog]

The word elite gets thrown around here so often it's hilarious. For me, elite means top 10, for example Larkin's speed. I'm not putting any player on that list until they go up against NHLers.

Decent might be an understatement, he's on target with his passes, but he also telegraphs them. That could be dangerous with some of the speedsters in the NHL.

How often have people here thrown around the word elite about prospects in recent years? I really don't think it's as frequent as you imply. I certainly don't recall anyone thinking Sproul, Ouellet, Cholowski, Kindl, Smith, Almqvist or even Hronek projected as elite on the defensive side of the puck. But we could project that Larkin would be an elite skater before the reached the NHL, and he became one.
You simply don't defend like Seider does at 17-18-19 years old without projecting as elite defensively.

Telegraphing passes seems like a weird critique. He makes quick decisions and strong, accurate passes. Look at the pass at the end of this clip:

I've already agreed that practice shots aren't the most ideal way to judge a recruit, but I'd still expect a little more than that even if it was just for the cameras.

I don't have SHL access either, I'm just wondering why everyone is now proclaiming that he's elite after 10 games in the SHL. All I see are replays of very solid defensive plays, nothing spectacular. Sure, I like what I see, but the original argument was he's top pair on a Cup contender and an elite NHL defender. I just wouldn't take it that far yet.

- Take "very solid defensive plays", multiply by 100 instances of them, add in nearly a point-per-game, throw in some physical play, a pinch of league-best advanced stats.. yeah you have a prospect with a very high ceiling.

He's scored on two nice shots, but you disregard them because they weren't really booming slapshots. I've watched all games and he extremely rarely pulls out a slapshot, at least not one with the kind of wind-up and flex you require. I think we have enough data to say he's got a decent shot from the point, he gets it through and it's hard enough for rebounds/deflections or even the ocassional goal. We don't have enough data to really see what his slapshot is like if he actually lays into it. He clearly doesn't make it a priority to use the slapshot and he usually defers to others for the shot.

 

[Henkka]

I don't have SHL access either, I'm just wondering why everyone is now proclaiming that he's elite after 10 games in the SHL. All I see are replays of very solid defensive plays, nothing spectacular. Sure, I like what I see, but the original argument was he's top pair on a Cup contender and an elite NHL defender. I just wouldn't take it that far yet.

Guy is the hardest player currently at SHL to score against.

That's defenceman's job. And at same package, he has superior transition game, either skating with puck or stretch passing. He'll impact mostly to our 5-on-5, which is most important part at hockey. We still have Hronek for slapshot fans and on the PP.

Seider will instantly change one 5-man unit for 20-22 minutes for 55% corsi (as a unit) and it will be biggest factor to our turnaround as a team.

That impact will be funny when we see it on reality. Lots of Michiganers eyes wide open, what a hell is happening. We are good again?

 

[SirloinUB]

A slap shot is such a weird singular thing to dwell on here. He might never score 20 goals but that doesn’t mean he can’t be a high end/elite 1st pairing guy.

That’s like saying a forward can’t be elite if he isn’t an excellent two way player. It’s Such a bizarre and narrow line of thinking.

 

[jkutswings]

Could the lack of a slapshot prevent Seider from being top notch in every single aspect of the game? Possibly.

Am I at all concerned about any limitations in his development or eventual ceiling based on his play thus far? No.

Everything about Seider since drafting him has been:

 

[odin1981]

I think what Gniwider is saying is more to temper expectations a bit than to automatically assume Seider will be a top pairing stud. The slapshot or lack there of is just his main example (if your a lady my apologies) as to why his point of contention that we shouldn't just assume that he is a homerun of a sure thing.

I could be getting this incorrectly, but that is the gist of what he is saying. I very well could be wrong. But that is to me at least why he is saying to slow down a bit on expectations. While Seider is doing excellent so far at the levels he has played at to this point he I believe is more or less saying "Don't count your chickens before they hatch".

 

[Gniwder]

Telegraphing passes seems like a weird critique. He makes quick decisions and strong, accurate passes. Look at the pass at the end of this clip:

What exactly is that pass supposed to prove? Holds the puck, looks forever, and basically just sends it up ice.

Watch any highlight and you can tell where he's going with the puck before he sends the pass. Not a big deal if he's sending the puck up the ice, but could be a problem if he's sending it across the ice. We've seen LGD, Helm, and AA break on passes like that. NHL players are faster than SHL.

As for the word "elite", there's been at least 2 posters here that have used that term for Raymond earlier this SHL season. I get he's good, but elite is a strong word, same with Seider.

 

[Ezekial]

What exactly is that pass supposed to prove? Holds the puck, looks forever, and basically just sends it up ice.

Lol.

He baits the defender to think he's sending it up the boards then no looks it across ice to the stick of his breaking forward.

Sure, just held it too long and sends it up ice though.