Zach Werenski - Update: Signs 3-yr ELC (p. 15)

[Cowumbus]

We have people saying he's a 5/6 (forever) and people saying he's a 2 (on a bad team). So no, I don't think we all agree he's a middle pairing player.

You're right that it's possible he will not improve, but it's silly also to assume he won't.

He has been given a role on this team. Like any other player, that role is based on not only a player's ability but the needs of the roster. He's had some hiccups this season but in general has been doing what the team needs him to do in order to win. I'm good with that, regardless of his draft position.

I'm not saying I think that he won't improve, but I don't think it would be silly to say he won't. He's been in the league what 4 years now? We wanted Golobeuf to improve and he never did, a lot of people peak at a young age, or don't get better after a few years in the league.

However I think dmen usually peak later maybe around 25-26? So I'm hoping Murray does get better.

 

[major major]

Like I said before, outside of his rookie season he's looked very mediocre. He's obviously not flashy, and he's doing his job because you hardly notice him, but that's not what you draft 2nd overall. Especially when he's pegged as such a good prospect. I get injuries have hurt his development and he'd be further along if he didn't lose his draft+ year and his 2nd NHL year, but I've been underwhelmed with him. Perhaps that's at the fault of management a year or two ago when he was pegged as the guy to save our defense.

The Keith example was about his play style, not about Keith the player.

You can be disappointed in his development. Fine. I think many of us are up to this point. There's nothing wrong with that. The issue is that you took a 23 year old D, and said he'd max out as a bottom pair D, a level he's surpassed since his first year in the league. And then of course you don't want the Keith comparison to be about development path, it sure doesn't help your argument.

And the player I remember him being compared to the most was Dan Hamhuis, stylistically and talent level. And that wasn't by his detractors - there were some people who wanted him #1OA who thought he'd max out as Dan Hamhuis.

Murray would be our #2 this year if Werenski wasn't ready... him and Jones were an amazing pair last year. Murray just made team NA and played top 4 minutes as the best defensemen IN BOTH USA and Canada under 23. He's a solid player who hasn't played his best this year but others are playing so well that him playing average makes him look rough. People like trashing Murray seem like the people that never liked him in the 1st place and he could be playing the same as JJ now but they would find a way to still hate. Same thing that torts haters do.

They were the best pair we ever had. They weren't amazing. And I'm not sure how many folks agree with you that Murray was the best D on Team NA. I thought he was great that tournament, but it's debatable how he ranked among them. It seems every fanbase with a guy in that group thinks their guy was the best.

But I did notice that Murray from the tournament to this season is like two different players. I didn't notice any issue in the first games of the season (prior to injury), so I'm wondering if the injury had anything to do with it.

That and I've also wondered if he's carrying too much mass to play the mobile D game that he's best suited for. D get stockier in part to better absorb hits and avoid injury, so it's understandable in his case if he wanted to go for that. But he came in closer to 190 and now he looks 20 lbs heavier, if not more.

 

[Hello Johnny]

Murray IMO is currently a top 4 defenseman playing in a #5 role due to our depth. I don't think he's been great this year, but look at Savard. People wrote him off years ago and now he looks fantastic. He's 26 and doesn't have Murray's pedigree. Murray will be fine. Defensemen always take time to develop and his development has had some bumps. All that does is set his timetable back a bit.

He's never going to put up a ton of points, but I see a Vlasic-lite player in the making, which I believe will be very valuable to us.

 

[Nanabijou]

I'll just chime in that I do agree that Murray is not where I hoped he'd be at this point in his career. And yes, at least part of that is probably due to the fact that he was drafted #2 overall and was widely considered the 'most NHL-ready' prospect that year.

I feel the knee/ankle injuries really hurt him and he may have lost a half-step off his speed because of them. As he's not the most physical defenseman, that loss in foot speed has hurt him IMO, even though he still thinks the game pretty well.

Regardless, he may still be able to get some of that speed back over time and I think he has space between his ceiling yet. I would not trade him this year, as I still think Werenski/Jones Murray/Savard are a good top 4 to protect and build around next year and beyond.

Back to Werenski (this is his thread) - he's doing great but, with all the games they have in the latter part of the season, I fully expect him to fall back in the lineup from time to time, with Murray jumping up to pair with Jones.

 

[hardkorejackets]

I haven't been too impressed with Murray's play this year, but I am keeping a couple things in check.

1. We are 20-5-4 so far this season. It's a good season. I don't feel like dwelling on the slight negatives

2. He is 23 years old.

3. He is playing on the 3rd pairing this season on the right side for the first time in his career with Markus Nutivaara who is 22 years old and in his 1st season in North America.

4. He's not going to rack up many points as a 3rd pairing D-man and PK units with no chance of power play time at all this season. I do like that he is a bit more willing to shoot the puck a bit this year.

I don't necessarily think that Ryan Murray will ever be a #1-#2 D-man in the NHL now, but I certainly think he can be a #4 D-man.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Ohhh, that's it. He's a higher draft pick and he's Not Our Glorious Savior, therefore he sucks and we need to get rid of him and he'll never do any better.

Jesus. I said nothing of this magnitude.

 

[Viqsi]

Jesus. I said nothing of this magnitude.

You didn't come out and say it, but you did go on and on about "second overall" and "Werenski was 8th" and "he's replaceable" and "one-dimensional" and "never will be more" and posted one or two typical sell-him-before-they-realize-he-sucks style trade proposals. All while referring to him repeatedly as "bottom pairing" despite the fact that this is the only year in his career he's been there and he's still over eighteen minutes per game.

I recognize that you've been backing off on some of that since, but come on, hon. You started out deep in the crazy and you're only slowly making your way out.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

You didn't come out and say it, but you did go on and on about "second overall" and "Werenski was 8th" and "he's replaceable" and "one-dimensional" and "never will be more" and posted one or two typical sell-him-before-they-realize-he-sucks style trade proposals. All while referring to him repeatedly as "bottom pairing" despite the fact that this is the only year in his career he's been there and he's still over eighteen minutes per game.

I recognize that you've been backing off on some of that since, but come on, hon. You started out deep in the crazy and you're only slowly making your way out.

No, hon, I am not. I stick by what I said.

 

[JacketsDavid]

The Jackets set the expectation for Murray back in his second season (when we did nothing in the off season) and kind of said our big addition was a full season of Murray.
I have no idea what he'll be. More than likely over the last 50+ games one of the top 4 dmen will get hurt and more than likely Murray will get more minutes.
Also some where in here someone was saying how well he and Jones played last season. They played a lot of minutes but not sure they played "well". I know Jones in 41 games was a -11 along side Murray. Granted the tending was average at best last season but I don't think he excelled with first line minutes.
But he's 23 years old and can be very good. I have no idea where he will be at 24, 27 or 30 years old. But I still think later this season he will get an opportunity to show what he can do with bigger minutes in meaningful games.

 

[Viqsi]

No, hon, I am not. I stick by what I said.

So now you're steadfast on "he's a higher draft pick and he's Not Our Glorious Savior, therefore he sucks and we need to get rid of him and he'll never do any better", where earlier you objected, and in later posts you tried to suggest otherwise, thereby staying firmly in the crazy. Gotcha.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

So now you're steadfast on "he's a higher draft pick and he's Not Our Glorious Savior, therefore he sucks and we need to get rid of him and he'll never do any better", where earlier you objected, and in later posts you tried to suggest otherwise, thereby staying firmly in the crazy. Gotcha.

 

[Old Guy]

I took the opportunity last evening to watch the Flyers - Capitals (Wednesday Night Rivalry) game on NBCSN. Among other things I wanted to get a look at Philadelphia, as the Jackets have not seen them yet this year. Plus, I wanted to get a look at their 19 year old phenom - D-man, Ivan Provorov. Specifically, I wanted to compare what he showed in just one game to another certain 19 year old phenom D-man.

Before the 2015 draft, Provorov was getting much more hype than Werenski. When the Jackets were unable to complete a trade to move up and get Hanifin, and Philadelphia took Provorov one pick before #8, I was afraid that the Blue Jackets had to "settle" for Werenski. I kept that feeling until last year's AHL playoffs. Then I was sold. In fact, I saw it as possible that Columbus got the best player.

So to last nights game, I thought Provorov played pretty well. I'm biased, so this is difficult. Provorov has a pretty decent shot. I think Werenski might be able to get his off just a bit quicker. Provorov made a nice move to slide along the blue line to let a shooting lane open so his vision and decision making was good. Provorov skated the puck into the O-zone a couple times and looked good doing it. No real flaws or problems in that limited aspect I watched.

The difference I did notice was that he seemed to make more d-to-d passes in getting set up for the counter attack. Tortorella has the Jackets making one or almost no passes between defensemen. That's coaching, not a player/skill issue.

I saw Provorov turn the puck over a couple times when pressured. Not a lot, but a couple. Zach seems better at puck control when being pressured. I also didn't see Provorov being the offensive catalyst that Zach has become. But that is only one game, and again I'm biased.

All that being said, Provorov looks like he is going to live up to the advance billing. The Flyers have themselves a very nice D-man that should be solid for years to come. It will be interesting to watch the #7 and #8 overall draft picks from 2015 compete in the same division for the next several years.

 

[DarkandStormy]

I'd take Werenski over Hanifin in a re-draft.

ESPN's recent podcast did a hypothetical "re-draft" of both the 2015 and 2016 classes, together. It went something like this:

1) McDavid (duh)
2) Matthews
3) Laine
4) Werenski
5) Eichel
6) Marner
7) Provorov

I think Hanifin was picked either 9th or 10th.

 

[Byrral]

It's kind of strange that when I do the eye test watching Provorov he appears to me to be bigger and more solid than Werenski. When I looked up their vitals Werenski is not only taller but heavier

 

[Old Guy]

I think Hanifin was picked either 9th or 10th.

Hanifin was taken 5th overall in the 2015 draft. The CBJ are on record of trying to trade up to get him.

When that didn't work and Provorov was taken at #7, the CBJ then "settled" for Werenski.

 

[DarkandStormy]

Hanifin was taken 5th overall in the 2015 draft. The CBJ are on record of trying to trade up to get him.

When that didn't work and Provorov was taken at #7, the CBJ then "settled" for Werenski.

I was referring to the re-draft of the '15-'16 classes.

 

[major major]

Hanifin was taken 5th overall in the 2015 draft. The CBJ are on record of trying to trade up to get him.

When that didn't work and Provorov was taken at #7, the CBJ then "settled" for Werenski.

Jarmo's order was Hanifin, Werenski, and Provorov. They were on video celebrating when the Flyers picked Provorov ("We got our guy!"). We can also infer from the offers to move up to 4th and 5th (that the Jackets rejected) that they had Werenski very close to Hanifin, and were moving up to be sure of getting one of them, but they balked at the offers because they thought that they could still get him at 8.

 

[99 CBJ]

Yes, I pictured it at the time that they wanted to move up to make sure they would get Werensky and were not trying to make a move for Hanifin. I thought they wanted Werensky the whole time.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Hanifin was taken 5th overall in the 2015 draft. The CBJ are on record of trying to trade up to get him.

When that didn't work and Provorov was taken at #7, the CBJ then "settled" for Werenski.

To be fair, the Jackets had a deal to move up for Hanifin. With Toronto they demanded our first (8th overall) and all three of our second round picks that year. We mulled it over, Jarmo even said he was leaning on doing it, but he held off because he believed Werenski was very close to Hanifin in skill and was pretty sure we could get him at 8th. So while yes we did have Hanifin ranked higher than Werenski, it wasn't enough to lose draft picks over.

 

[Old Guy]

I watched Zack interviewed recently and had a fleeting thought. But I was reading the PLD thread and the prospects thread and that same thought returned.

Imagine the player Zach will become after he has about 2 more summers to hit the weight room and build some more muscle on that body. He plays so smooth now with the puck on his stick. It will be amazing to watch the next couple seasons as he develops and builds up more to handle the rigors of the the NHL game and schedule.

 

[The Jones Zone]

Yahoo Fantasy has Werenski listed day to day

what I miss

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

 

[The Jones Zone]

more Lysol

 

[GoJackets1]

4 points in the last 2 games- heating up again hopefully?

Zach is only 8 points away from Nash's rookie points record.

 

[JohnnyJacket13]

4 points in the last 2 games- heating up again hopefully?

Zach is only 8 points away from Nash's rookie points record.

Really since the game he nearly missed because of a cold (I think the Ottawa game where Condon stood on his head?), Z has been way more active and free-wheeling - which is great. When he can be so dynamic going through the neutral and into the offensive zone with the puck, the team is at its best.

Hopefully he's able to keep this "second-wind" up through the rest of the regular season and into the playoffs. Once we're healthy on the blue line, I would still like to see his 5-on-5 minutes reduced a bit to keep his legs fresh.