TheDaysOf 04
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Seems like he just wanted to come back to Tampa really bad. Glad it worked out for both sidesI thought Toronto were in love with him. Maybe it wasn't mutual.
Seems like he just wanted to come back to Tampa really bad. Glad it worked out for both sidesI thought Toronto were in love with him. Maybe it wasn't mutual.
I did not say Hedman needed Bogo to be "that good", nice strawman. The fact is Rutta hadn't played since January, Cooper isn't such an idiot to throw Rutta into the lineup unless Bogo was injured after one bad game.
Hedman was able to play a more aggressive game thanks to Bogosian being a more defensively responsible and mobile defender than Rutta, Schenn, or whatever other musical chair defender Cooper paired him with to that point. You could see the difference in Hedmans play immediately, and that extra gear offensively was enough to win the Smythe over Point. I've watched just about every game Hedman has played since entering the league and the last time he played like that 5v5 was when he had Stralman as a partner. Coincidence? Believe what you want, but I don't get the fascination of Rutta as the better choice except recency bias.
Let's see how the pairings turn out in camp, go ahead and bet on Rutta being Hedmans partner
You said "I don’t think Hedman wins the Smythe without him." Either you think Hedman need Bogo to have that level of success, or you don't. Pick a lane. But I can tell you one is the expressway to crazytown.
There's a reason Cooper played Rutta over Bogo when Rutta got healthy.
It's the same reason why we turned around and signed Rutta to $1.3m per yr for two years, while we watched Bogo walk to Toronto for a 1-year $1m prove-it deal. And I can assure you that reason ain't that Bogo is better than Rutta.
And after the one-year prove-it didn't work out, he walked and took another pay cut.
It's perfectly reasonable to be happy with the signing. We need cheap guys who are NHL-capable, especially on D, and Bogo isn't going to keep us from winning another Cup. But it's gonna get ugly in here if his slow ass is playing significant minutes every night.
You sound like the kind of person who has trouble with nuance, but to be clear I was speaking specifically to that postseason because Hedman was playing babysitter to that point. It's hilarious that you think I was implying that Hedman can't play that well without Bogosian.
He didn't, Rutta was a healthy scratch until ZB got hurt against Dallas
We attempted to sign ZB but he chose Toronto on the 1st day, not the other way around. Rutta was such a highly sought after free agent that he went unsigned for months until we offered him a deal on the cusp of training camp. He was a real priority
Toronto offered him more money to return, but lets act like he was failure and was forced out for less
You think Bogosian is slow? Okay
You sound like the kind of person who has trouble with nuance, but to be clear I was speaking specifically to that postseason because Hedman was playing babysitter to that point. It's hilarious that you think I was implying that Hedman can't play that well without Bogosian.
He didn't, Rutta was a healthy scratch until ZB got hurt against Dallas
We attempted to sign ZB but he chose Toronto on the 1st day, not the other way around. Rutta was such a highly sought after free agent that he went unsigned for months until we offered him a deal on the cusp of training camp. He was a real priority
Toronto offered him more money to return, but lets act like he was failure and was forced out for less
You think Bogosian is slow? Okay
Oh, I understand nuance. The nuance here is that you want to say that Hedman wouldn't have won the Smythe without Bogosian, then backpedal rapidly when called on it. Hella nuance.
Love your narrative on how Zach _succeeded_ his way into an $850k contract with Tampa while the inferior Rutta is taking home $1.3m. Remind me to shoot myself in the head if I ever decide to hire Bogo's agent.
Anyway, I'm gonna leave this where it is for now. Will check back in to see all the praise (or perhaps something a little more septic) showered on Bogo if Cooper ends up forced to give him Hedman minutes every night.
Seriously. Can't believe what I'm reading. He's not the fastest but he's not slow... he absolutely held it down against Columbus and had a memorable dog walk of an assist to a diving Coleman goal. He's basically another Rutta. Able to log heavy minutes, he actually has a heavier shot and can play physical though unlike Rutta. The one thing that surprised me is how well positioned he was next to Hedman. He was not out of his element and contributed to that cup run. The idea that he's some liability as a consistent 6th d in comparison to someone who is ACTUALLY slow in Foote is a f***ing reach and a half.
For clarification.... I'm agreeing with you...
Me clarifying what should have been an obvious point a day after you misinterpreted it is a big time backpedal
I gotta admit it’s difficult to lose an argument when you can just be obtuse and ignore the context and narrative of the other person
Christ dude, you said it. Did you mean it or no? Are you saying that if we hadn't picked up Bogosian, Hedman wouldn't have won the Smythe? Or are you not saying it?
If you're gonna drop that position, then bully for you. Because it's dumb.
That is exactly what I said, Bogo enabled Hedman because he wasn't playing with Rutta or Schenn. I think Point beats him if he's playing with one of those two. You inferred earlier that I was saying he won exclusively because of Bogosian, when I wasn't.
I'll argue the former if you disagree, but I won't continue nonsensical back and forth over the intended meaning of my words after it's been clarified for you.
Zach Bogosian is a Schenn-level talent who was a healthy scratch in 4 of our 6 Stanley Cup Finals games the year Hedman won the Smythe.
Hedman got 15 points in the 18 games that Bogo actually played in that playoff run, and 6 points in the 4 games where Bogosian was scratched. On the nights Bogo played, Heddy was +17, yet somehow Bogosian was only +2 -- Hedman was on the ice for a lot of even strength scoring, but Bogo wasn't there. And of course Bogo wasn't on the ice for any of Hedman's PP success either.
Bogosian averaged 17.5 minutes in the games he played (16 minutes if you take out the 5 OT game) to Hedman's 28 minutes in the same set of games (26.5 ignoring the 5 OT game).
All these stats shouldn't be necessary -- it should be blindingly obvious to anyone who remembers the games -- but it's just silly to say that Hedman wouldn't have won the Conn Smythe if we hadn't picked up Zach Bogosian. But you seem to have concocted some fantasy about what Bogo was able to do for Heddy on the ice. Why or how you came up with this, I have no idea.
Loved the +/- utilization there. A real slam dunk lmao.This again. Rutta was actually the one who was a healthy scratch for weeks until Bogo was hurt against Dallas with an "undisclosed" injury. Cooper even said that he didn't want to insert Rutta back into the lineup because of how well the team was playing without him, i.e. Bogosian was doing such a good job.
The nights that Bogosian played, Hedman was +17; and on the nights that he did not play, he was -4. This should trump your other stats, but I'll bite. If you watch the games, you should know that our defensemen are deployed differently depending on the situation. Hedman had so many more points, minutes, and +/- than Bogosian because Bogo took mostly defensive zone draws and was used in a shutdown role. Sergachev and Shattenkirk were many times rotated in on offensive opportunities.
Right, Hedman is a beast and used in all situations. Was there another point to the TOI differential?
Instead of blindingly obvious, I think you would just be blind if you couldn't see Bogosian's positive impact for the team and how he freed up our offensive minded defensemen to be more aggressive.
Loved the +/- utilization there. A real slam dunk lmao.
Before I take my summer holiday, everyone chill.
Bogo just wants a piece of the Bud Light contracts.
He's perfect for it.
As is Hedman.
Loved the +/- utilization there. A real slam dunk lmao.
PTS | %Total | Line Combination |
---|---|---|
4 | 33.3 | HEDMAN,VICTOR - SHATTENKIRK,KEVIN |
2 | 16.7 | HEDMAN,VICTOR - BOGOSIAN,ZACH |
2 | 16.7 | HEDMAN,VICTOR - RUTTA,JAN |
2 | 16.7 | HEDMAN,VICTOR - SCHENN,LUKE |
1 | 8.3 | HEDMAN,VICTOR - SERGACHEV,MIKHAIL |
1 | 8.3 | HEDMAN,VICTOR - CERNAK,ERIK |
PTS | %Total | Line Combination |
---|---|---|
7 | 70 | HEDMAN,VICTOR |
2 | 20 | HEDMAN,VICTOR - SHATTENKIRK,KEVIN |
1 | 10 | NO LINEMATES |
Freq | Line Combination |
---|---|
30.8% | HEDMAN,VICTOR - SHATTENKIRK,KEVIN |
27.5% | HEDMAN,VICTOR - BOGOSIAN,ZACH |
13.2% | HEDMAN,VICTOR - RUTTA,JAN |
9.2% | HEDMAN,VICTOR - SCHENN,LUKE |
8.8% | HEDMAN,VICTOR - SERGACHEV,MIKHAIL |
7.3% | HEDMAN,VICTOR - CERNAK,ERIK |
2.4% | HEDMAN,VICTOR - MCDONAGH,RYAN |
0.6% | HEDMAN,VICTOR |
0.1% | HEDMAN,VICTOR - CERNAK,ERIK - SERGACHEV,MIKHAIL |
0% | HEDMAN,VICTOR - SCHENN,LUKE - SERGACHEV,MIKHAIL |
Are y’all really arguing whether Hedman, the greatest defenseman in the league, is a product of Bogo or Rutta? Give it a rest guys.
Ah, lovely, I found the stats I was looking for: Victor Hedman - Fantasy Hockey Game Logs, Advanced Stats and more - Frozen Tools
Heddy had 22 postseason points in 2019-20, the year we had Bogosian and Hedman won the Smythe. He got 12 of his point at ES and 10 on the power play.
Here are Hedman's even strength point totals, split by pairing:
And power play point totals, split by what other defenders were on the ice:[TBODY] [/TBODY]
PTS %Total Line Combination 4 33.3 HEDMAN,VICTOR - SHATTENKIRK,KEVIN 2 16.7 HEDMAN,VICTOR - BOGOSIAN,ZACH 2 16.7 HEDMAN,VICTOR - RUTTA,JAN 2 16.7 HEDMAN,VICTOR - SCHENN,LUKE 1 8.3 HEDMAN,VICTOR - SERGACHEV,MIKHAIL 1 8.3 HEDMAN,VICTOR - CERNAK,ERIK
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
And just for completeness, here is how Heddy spent his even strength shifts, by pairing:[TBODY] [/TBODY]
PTS %Total Line Combination 7 70 HEDMAN,VICTOR 2 20 HEDMAN,VICTOR - SHATTENKIRK,KEVIN 1 10 NO LINEMATES
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
So to summarize: In five games where Rutta played, Hedman scored 2 ES points with Rutta on the ice. In Bogo's twenty games, Hedman scored the same -- 2 ES points -- with Bogo on the ice. Hell, Schenn only played 11 games, and how much ES scoring did Heddy do with Schenn on the ice? Yep, another 2 goddamned points.[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Freq Line Combination 30.8% HEDMAN,VICTOR - SHATTENKIRK,KEVIN 27.5% HEDMAN,VICTOR - BOGOSIAN,ZACH 13.2% HEDMAN,VICTOR - RUTTA,JAN 9.2% HEDMAN,VICTOR - SCHENN,LUKE 8.8% HEDMAN,VICTOR - SERGACHEV,MIKHAIL 7.3% HEDMAN,VICTOR - CERNAK,ERIK 2.4% HEDMAN,VICTOR - MCDONAGH,RYAN 0.6% HEDMAN,VICTOR 0.1% HEDMAN,VICTOR - CERNAK,ERIK - SERGACHEV,MIKHAIL 0% HEDMAN,VICTOR - SCHENN,LUKE - SERGACHEV,MIKHAIL
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Hedman was actually at his LEAST productive when paired with Bogosian, on a per-minute basis. Worse than with Cernak. Worse than with Luke f***ing Schenn. Worse than with every other defender we've got.
Rschmitz, I don't know what fever dream you have mistaken for reality, but this idea that having Bogo on the ice allowed Hedman to go wild on offense is just the purest horseshit.
(Note that all the above includes the 3 prelim games and treats them as if they were playoff games, but that hardly matters. Rutta played in the first prelim game, and Bogo in the other two. Hedman only had one point, a PP assist, during the prelim games.)
Freq | Line Combination |
---|---|
87.6 | HEDMAN,VICTOR - RUTTA,JAN |
7.2 | MCDONAGH,RYAN - RUTTA,JAN |
4.7 | RUTTA,JAN - SERGACHEV,MIKHAIL |
0.3 | CERNAK,ERIK - HEDMAN,VICTOR - RUTTA,JAN |
0.3 | CERNAK,ERIK - MCDONAGH,RYAN - RUTTA,JAN |
Freq | Line Combination |
---|---|
45.7 | BOGOSIAN,ZACH - HEDMAN,VICTOR |
36.7 | BOGOSIAN,ZACH - MCDONAGH,RYAN |
10 | BOGOSIAN,ZACH - SERGACHEV,MIKHAIL |
No. One guy is arguing that Hedman wouldn't have won the Smythe without Bogosian, because otherwise he would've had to play with Rutta or Schenn, which is dumb as f***.
First off, please relax. Now try and follow
Here is Rutta's parse
Here is Bogosian's parse[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Freq Line Combination 87.6 HEDMAN,VICTOR - RUTTA,JAN 7.2 MCDONAGH,RYAN - RUTTA,JAN 4.7 RUTTA,JAN - SERGACHEV,MIKHAIL 0.3 CERNAK,ERIK - HEDMAN,VICTOR - RUTTA,JAN 0.3 CERNAK,ERIK - MCDONAGH,RYAN - RUTTA,JAN
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Freq Line Combination 45.7 BOGOSIAN,ZACH - HEDMAN,VICTOR 36.7 BOGOSIAN,ZACH - MCDONAGH,RYAN 10 BOGOSIAN,ZACH - SERGACHEV,MIKHAIL
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Notice how Rutta played almost the entire game with Hedman, and notice how Bogosian split his minutes?
Bogosian played almost exclusively as a shutdown defenseman with Hedman or McDonagh. He had primarily dzone starts against the other teams top lines, and on offensive zone draws he was rotated out for Shattenkirk or Sergachev. You are continuing to go on and on and on about how Bogosian's point totals and his +/- is so much lower than Hedman's, so I guess that means that obviously Bogosian is a drag on Hedman right? You completely throw out the context. He received some of the toughest matchups each game, and when the team was in a favorable position to score he was on the bench.
So, how did Bogosian help Hedman win the Smythe if he didn't contribute offensively? Easy, instead of the 2 points Hedman scored with Rutta or 2 points with Schenn, he was allowed to play with Shattenkirk and Sergachev. Instead of having to babysit Rutta for the entire game, he had a competent partner defensively and was given a capable offensive partner when on the attack.
This is why Hedman's +17 while playing with Bogosian and -4 without is more important than the point totals and +/- differential you continue to persistently mention.