Speculation: Yzerman's first move.

[Hen Kolland]

I'm sure they have been following his condition throughout the offseason and have a good handle on the likelihood of recovery. Nobody is correct 100% of the time, but i'm sure the medical professionals understand his prognosis, certainly better than you or I speculating baselessly on a message board.

Using your logic we can't assume Dylan Larkin will play at all next season either. I mean, as you said, he could hurt his back like Green did two years ago and Larkin did hurt his back last year actually. So no point in penciling him into the lineup.

I'm sorry, does Larkin have a history of injury or illness?

 

[obey86]

I'm sorry, does Larkin have a history of injury or illness?

He injured his back last year and missed a bunch of games. Could happen again this offseason, ya never know! No point in penciling him into the lineup.

 

[The Zermanator]

He injured his back last year and missed a bunch of games. Could happen again this offseason, ya never know! No point in penciling him into the lineup.

Ah yes because missing 6 games = missing a combined 55 games over the past 2 seasons (from the same issue).

 

[obey86]

Teams have their own bias though, in terms of favouring a contracted player returning to the ice.

They cleared Franzen to play and now he's suffering a living hell a lot of the time. He should never have set foot on the ice after his last 1-2 concussions but here we are. Even several people on this board thought he shouldn't come back but the doctors cleared him.

So yeah the Wings may be wanting him to play this season. But what we do know is that Green has suffered from a serious recurring issue that has caused him to miss long stretches. It's not unrealistic to think it might come back. Especially given the physical toll of an NHL season. My medical knowledge is very basic granted but if he's already susceptible to this issue reoccurring then rest is probably the best thing to eliminate it entirely. The physical and mental stresses of a hockey season including the exertion, impact, even things like travel and being away from home, are all things that can aggravate the kinds of issues Green has had.


You've never heard of an injury being described as an 'upper body injury' only to later find out it was a concussion?

You're not a medical professional. You don't know Green's medical history or even what virus he has. This is all a bunch of worthless speculation based on absolutely zero factual knowledge.

Not sure what that has to do with anything. And the vagueness for injuries is used during the season when they don't want players targeted in certain areas of their body, not the offseason. Can you point me to a single example where an NHL team used a term like "upper body injury" IN THE OFFSEASON in an attempt to be purposely vague/secretive?

Are you saying he may not really have a virus and the Red Wings are lying?

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

So you're comparing Trouba to Larsson (career high 24 points) and Reinhart (career high 1 point). And also comparing whatever we would give up to Barzal and Hall when the only comparable piece we have is Larkin and absolutely no one has suggested moving him. I'd be shocked if Winnipeg even bothered to bring up his name in negotiations for Trouba. I honestly can't attribute this to anything other than a simple desire to be a contrarian.

No I am not comparing players at all. Far from it. I am comparing situations which are remarkably similar.

An abundance of wingers, a perceived inability to draft and develop a particular position, pressure from media and or fans to react immediately with a new GM and trade for a dman.

I am not saying mantha is hall or trouba is larsson, but I am saying I do not want to make a mistake.

I actually do think Mantha can develop into a player much "closer" to Hall than Trouba can into a Suter or Karlsson.

My reference to the pick (barzal it turns out) is not revisionist history, it's just fact. No more so than those who praise KH for picking datsyuk or zetterberg where at the time, nobody foresaw what they became. I do not think any rebuilding teams should trade away picks, period..

 

[Hen Kolland]

He injured his back last year and missed a bunch of games. Could happen again this offseason, ya never know! No point in penciling him into the lineup.

Larkin had like a strained back muscle. Green had a neck surgery. Do I need to explain why they are different?

 

[obey86]

Ah yes because missing 6 games = missing a combined 55 games over the past 2 seasons (from the same issue).

Mike Green's virus issues all occurred within one season, in a span of 5 months, not over two seasons.. And he missed 39 games, not 55 from it.

Dekeyser missed 30 games last year, almost as many as Green. Do you have him penciled into the lineup for next season?

 

[obey86]

Larkin had like a strained back muscle. Green had a neck surgery. Do I need to explain why they are different?

Your original post said nothing about back surgery. You said he "hurt his back."

So is having surgery the qualifier then? Because Mantha had surgery on his hand last year and missed the same amount of games as Green missed two seasons ago. Do you have Mantha in your 19-20 lineup or did you leave him out because of the surgery?

And anyways, what surgery did Green have from his virus?

"It's because he had a back injury!" "No wait, it's because he had surgery!" "No wait, Mantha's surgery doesn't count because reasons!" "No way, i'm just a conspiracy theorist who thinks the Red Wings are lying to me because.....I don't know!"

You keep moving the goal posts.

 

[TCNorthstars]

I'm sorry, does Larkin have a history of injury or illness?

Crushed nuts man, crushed nuts!

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Are you a medical professional? Serious question. Do you have access to his medical records/history? Not a serious question.

Not sure how you knowing the virus name would change anything when the actual medical professionals with access to his medical history are telling the Red Wings he will be ready for the season. Doctors are wrong sometimes of course, but the Red Wings's words (via what they hear from the doctors) have infinitely more credibility to them than your baseless speculation/interpretation.

No offense, but even if you knew what type of virus it was you still aren't informed enough to make a credible statement that he won't be ready, when the medical professionals are saying he will be.

No, but I have watched this play out enough in the past that some of the look of this is familiar. Absent a public diagnosis which I agree we are not entitled to though legalized gambling is about to change this I remain skeptical.

He was shutdown to rest it only to have it return. He has been shutdown to rest it again. What I am saying is I would not be stunned at all to hear about there being an issue when he picks up his training in the summer here shortly or when he ramps it up hard in September or October. Because we don't know what it is specifically it leaves a lot of grey areas. They expected him to return the first time without incident as well.

I trust our team doctors, I have said over and over you have to go with things they are telling you on physicals and things of that nature. In this particular case they have given me reason to pause. I would love nothing more than to watch a right side of defense with Trouba, Hronek and Green until the deadline. I am just not sure how long we will have Green, he is by no means a durable guy historically anyway.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Your original post said nothing about back surgery. You said he "hurt his back."

So is having surgery the qualifier then? Because Mantha had surgery on his hand last year and missed the same amount of games as Green missed two seasons ago. Do you have Mantha in your 19-20 lineup or did you leave him out because of the surgery?

And anyways, what surgery did Green have from his virus?

"It's because he had a back injury!" "No wait, it's because he had surgery!" "No wait, Mantha's surgery doesn't count because reasons!" "No way, i'm just a conspiracy theorist who thinks the Red Wings are lying to me because.....I don't know!"

You keep moving the goal posts.

I didn't move the goal post a single inch? You're just acting extremely arrogant today.

Why is it hard to comprehend that I have doubts about the overall health of a 33 year old player who missed the end of the season two years with an injury that required neck surgery, and missed half the year and the end of the season last year because he had a recurring virus attacking his internal organs?

Mantha's hand is........a hand. Mike Green had surgery on his f***ing neck.

By the logic you are trying to project on to me, the paper cut I got at work today has the same impact on my life as Aron Ralston when he had to cut his own arm off with a pocket knife.

I have never once suggested the team is lying; they very well may believe he will play. I will just have clouds of doubt surrounding Mike Green's health for the rest of his career, which feels increasingly likely to be over after next year.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Crushed nuts man, crushed nuts!

This one I am skeptical of. I won't believe in his ability to reproduce until he has a family.

 

[The Zermanator]

This one I am skeptical of. I won't believe in his ability to reproduce until he has a family.

Would be pretty ironic if D-Boss ended up snipped.

 

[The Zermanator]

You're not a medical professional. You don't know Green's medical history or even what virus he has. This is all a bunch of worthless speculation based on absolutely zero factual knowledge.

Not sure what that has to do with anything. And the vagueness for injuries is used during the season when they don't want players targeted in certain areas of their body, not the offseason. Can you point me to a single example where an NHL team used a term like "upper body injury" IN THE OFFSEASON in an attempt to be purposely vague/secretive?

Are you saying he may not really have a virus and the Red Wings are lying?

Mike Green's virus issues all occurred within one season, in a span of 5 months, not over two seasons.. And he missed 39 games, not 55 from it.

Dekeyser missed 30 games last year, almost as many as Green. Do you have him penciled into the lineup for next season?

No I'm not going to do all that because it's a waste of time. I just find it curious how the thought of a virus that has already re-occurred once could re-occur again is so inconceivable to you.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I would say tsweeny I would be 100% fine with that happening.

I think he is good but not great

I do not think he is worth considerable assets

I do not care for his attitude whatsoever whether it was holding out, publicly indicating he wants to be traded or publicly indicating he wishes to not play in an entire country, all while as a RFA.

There you go. I understand where you are coming from then. I don't agree because I think he's good and that we'd be paying a reasonable price for a guy very likely to stick around who is a top pairing guy... but I understand the feeling. The whole reason I'm so in favor of it is that I don't think it was take "considerable" assets. At least not anywhere near comparable to what landing a bona-fide top pairing D would usually cost. But as long as you're cool with missing Trouba in 2020 and don't hang it over the head of the GM for not being able to sign him, I understand the point of view totally.

 

[obey86]

No I'm not going to do all that because it's a waste of time. I just find it curious how the thought of a virus that has already re-occurred once could re-occur again is so inconceivable to you.

The original point of contention I was arguing against was that the Red Wings proclamation that Green is expected to be ready for the season "means nothing." It definitely means a heck of a lot more than "nothing," even if doctors can't always 100% predict the future.

Do you agree the Red Wings saying Mike Green is expected to be ready to start the season is a positive thing for his health more than if they didn't say anything? Because it certainly doesn't mean "nothing," which again, was my main contention if you look where the thread started.

As for if the virus can re-occur? I don't know. I'm not a doctor, don't have access to his records. Don't even know what virus it was. Maybe he's getting a 4 month long treatment which has a 99.9% success rate. I have no f***ing clue. Do you? It's fair to somewhat cautious that he may never be at 100% heath or make it through an entire season I suppose - it's not fair to believe that the Red Wings statement he will be healthy to start the season means absolutely nothing or that your skepticism based on nothing should supersede what the doctors believe.

 

[obey86]

I didn't move the goal post a single inch? You're just acting extremely arrogant today.

Why is it hard to comprehend that I have doubts about the overall health of a 33 year old player who missed the end of the season two years with an injury that required neck surgery, and missed half the year and the end of the season last year because he had a recurring virus attacking his internal organs?

Mantha's hand is........a hand. Mike Green had surgery on his ****ing neck.

By the logic you are trying to project on to me, the paper cut I got at work today has the same impact on my life as Aron Ralston when he had to cut his own arm off with a pocket knife.

I have never once suggested the team is lying; they very well may believe he will play. I will just have clouds of doubt surrounding Mike Green's health for the rest of his career, which feels increasingly likely to be over after next year.

There's a huge difference between A) being skeptical/cautious with one's future health and B) believing that the Red Wings saying he is expected to be heathy means "nothing"

 

[The Zermanator]

The original point of contention I was arguing against was that the Red Wings proclamation that Green is expected to be ready for the season "means nothing." It definitely means a heck of a lot more than "nothing," even if doctors can't always 100% predict the future.

Do you agree the Red Wings saying Mike Green is expected to be ready to start the season is a positive thing for his health more than if they didn't say anything? Because it certainly doesn't mean "nothing," which again, was my main contention if you look where the thread started.

As for if the virus can re-occur? I don't know. I'm not a doctor, don't have access to his records. Don't even know what virus it was. Maybe he's getting a 4 month long treatment which has a 99.9% success rate. I have no ****ing clue. Do you? It's fair to somewhat cautious that he may never be at 100% heath or make it through an entire season I suppose - it's not fair to believe that the Red Wings statement he will be healthy to start the season means absolutely nothing or that your skepticism based on nothing should supersede what the doctors believe.

Well I never said it meant nothing so I can't really speak to that.

But those same doctors cleared him to play after his first bout with the virus. So clearly something happened that made it re-activate. Was it the grind of the NHL season? I would think that would be the biggest factor why he wouldn't have gotten completely healthy. Spending half the year away from home, jumping on red eye flights to make it to the next city in time for a game, playing a grinding and physical sport, heavy exercise almost daily, etc, etc...

They may expect him to play now but there's no telling if the same issue will not flare up once all those aggravating factors come into play again.

 

[Richard Gibson]

@m_bultman 6m6 minutes ago
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Red Wings have informed the agents for Fraser, Webb, Zablocki, Gilmour they won't be signing them. I'm not sure about Gallant, who is currently on an ATO in the ECHL Finals.

 

[The Zermanator]

He's not making it to UFA, book it. Will the Wings be the ones who pay the price? Everything I know about Yzerman as a GM tells me yes.

 

[Hen Kolland]

He's not making it to UFA, book it. Will the Wings be the ones who pay the price? Everything I know about Yzerman as a GM tells me yes.

He's certainly not afraid to make moves that will draw controversy. And generally speaking he comes out on the right side of things.

 

[vladdy16]

TZE already touched on this but I'd love to know about any other #3/4 who can put up 50 pts while being a defensive rock who plays a physical game and skates well. Those are all top pair guys.

If you're ready to move AA/Mantha in a couple years to round out the top 4 why wouldn't you just move them now for a top pair dman? You're favouring foregoing a real opportunity now for a potential opportunity in the future which isn't even defined. Why do you think we will ever get an equal player for cheaper than what Trouba is now?

Tyler Myers does not have the same untapped potential as Trouba, not even the same ballpark. He's 4 years older and about to enter his 30s. He's not physical at all, he's not nearly as good defensively, skating is about par, and he is worse offensively. He is what he is at this point. Trouba is 25 and this season is the 1st he got a real opportunity to be the #1 for a long stretch while Byfuglien missed ~40 games. And he had a career year. He wants that kind of role permanently which is a big part of why he wants out of Winnipeg and I think he can handle it (at worst a very good #2).



DK-Green
Kronwall-Hronek
Ericsson-Daley
Cholowski-Kaski

What part of that makes you think we're in a position to turn our noses up at a top 30 dman because he's not a championship calibre #1? I'd love to get that player (and there's one available this offseason) but beggars can't exactly be choosers. And at this point I've yet to hear a name (not from you specifically) about who that could possibly be.

It's fine if we're able to leverage assets for a top 4 dman like you mentioned in your first post there. But if a top pair continues to elude us then we're in the same position that we've always been. Our problem has never been 2nd/3rd pair dmen. Our problem has been that we have no top pair so our 2nd pair dmen like DK, Green, and Kronwall have been tasked with containing top lines when they are way out of their depth doing so. If Cholowski, Hronek, or McIsaac never become more than a #3 (which is realistically the most likely scenario), then our problems persist.

I get preferring not to part with Cholowski, I like him too, but the odds of him ever becoming better than what Trouba is now are incredibly slim. Ideally he'd be left out and we could do something around AA/Mantha who would be much easier to replace in FA. But Winnipeg is giving up a top pair dman and they're going to want what they're going to want so if they insist on Cholowski I'm not holding him back (provided the balance of the trade is still fair value).

As for your 2nd last paragraph re:Heiskanen. Yeah I'd love Heiskanen, and honestly would prefer the 19 year old over the 25 year old. But there are only so many Heiskanen's to go around. We don't have any of them, and the teams that do won't be giving them up.

Why have an argument instead of a disucussion? I've made very few determinations if any.

Replying bottom up. My reference to Heiskenen is that I believe his class is deeper, and plays a style that will be relevant further into the future. So saying opportunities like this one wont come along again is dubious to me.

I've never argued for turning our noses up to anything, thats a strawman. I am very interested in the scenario and excited to see how it plays out. But my point is, if you trade #1 assets for a guy, and you pay him #1 money for 6 years, if he's not a championship caliber #1, you've handicapped your teams potential for a whole cycle.

You say at worst Trouba is a very good #2. I'm Pretty much on board with that.

As for Meyers, at his size I consider him to be a stage of development behind his age. A 6'8" 29 year old has as much room to mature his game as an average sized 26 year old imo. Trouba is a better player for sure, but your skating comp highlights my point a bit.

Meyers is not an example of how we can fix our top pair, but we can bring him in for free to solve a depth issue/increase the likelihood 17 or 21 develop into top pair guys. Meyers would be a champ level #3-5 for the long term. (If the price is right)

What do you mean 'cheaper than he is now'? We dont know what the price is. As for 39/72, I think it's reasonable to expect that their trade value will continue to rise for a couple years. And again, I havent even said I wouldnt trade them for Trouba today.

And lastly, I'm sticking with my Brad Stuart comp. His age 26 year was very similar to Troubas age 25, and Stuart settled in to the #2-4 role from there. And the list of current players that could put up 50pts playing 22 minutes with that crop of forwards and play style is way longer than just boneafide #1's.

 

[obey86]

He's not making it to UFA, book it. Will the Wings be the ones who pay the price? Everything I know about Yzerman as a GM tells me yes.

Agreed, he's not making it to UFA. If the Wings want him they will have to trade for him.

I don't want to give up too much, so i'm fine not trading for him and moving on and taking my chances he doesn't sign with someone else. If he does, oh well.

 

[Winger98]

No, but I have watched this play out enough in the past that some of the look of this is familiar. Absent a public diagnosis which I agree we are not entitled to though legalized gambling is about to change this I remain skeptical.

He was shutdown to rest it only to have it return. He has been shutdown to rest it again. What I am saying is I would not be stunned at all to hear about there being an issue when he picks up his training in the summer here shortly or when he ramps it up hard in September or October. Because we don't know what it is specifically it leaves a lot of grey areas. They expected him to return the first time without incident as well.

I trust our team doctors, I have said over and over you have to go with things they are telling you on physicals and things of that nature. In this particular case they have given me reason to pause. I would love nothing more than to watch a right side of defense with Trouba, Hronek and Green until the deadline. I am just not sure how long we will have Green, he is by no means a durable guy historically anyway.

quit questioning authority @The Zetterberg Era, you're just going to spread conspiracies and craziness. I'm not sure how this and reasons why the Wings might be less than forthcoming have become a point of contention. It can be just as simple as shielding the player from hassle. If it came out that Green got Hep B/C what's the first question he's going to get? How did he get it? And how many answers to that question don't become a massive crap storm?

And we just went through this with zetterberg with the club slowly evolving it's line from looking to be ready to start the next year to maybe not going to be ready to, well, he's done. we saw it with Franzen, too. Even after everyone knew he had a concussion problem no one had any real clue as to the severity until fairly recently when his wife has started talking about how Mule is still having issues.

 

[Mister Ed]

I have a feeling that Trouba to DET will be made before the draft IF it happens. If he only wants to be traded to DET, the price won't be as high as everyone thinks, too - Cheveldayoff can only negotiate with one other GM and can't ramp up the asking price by comparing the deal to another team's deal.

I think that Cholowski gets moved in a deal for Trouba, but other than him, I have no idea what else will be a part of the deal.