Speculation: XLIV - Nylander's Wednesday or Thursday Discussion

[Walshy7]

And he's only a 20 goal scorer at the end of the day. On pace for another 20 goal season.

im not as big a G>A guy as some they are obviously better but I don't give as much credence as ive seen some do, so marner being a 25-75 guy is unreal to me.

just using the "logic" used in these threads to tear down nylander a peg or 2, for Marner

 

[Mess]

Yet you've been on the sign Nylander at any cost bandwagon.

Nope, never once said that..

I've thought Nylander would likely be forced out for cap reasons, made even more likely post JT signing or Leafs need to sign him a lower bridge deal to stay for now and let him "prove it", if he wants a big $$ LT contract.

Sitting out the year is illogical to Leafs Cup aspirations this season, so that wouldn't be a smart move by Leafs, which is the same position Bob McKenzie was saying just the other day.

So my positions are 2 year bridge deal in the $5-5.5 mil range, or a trade now (which I believe is inevitable eventually), and not forced to sit the year which would be poor asset management.

Your stated position hasn't ever been my position.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Timing my friend !!! .. .Kanes and Toews signed their $10.5 mil AFTER they won their 3 Cups..

Year 1 of their big cap hits started in 2015-16 and their 3rd and last Stanley Cup 2014-15.

They won their first Cup when they were on their ELC still and won Cups 2 & 3 while Toews ($6.3 mil) & Kane ($6.3 mil) .. That $6.3 mil isn't even going to get Nylander signed never mind Matthews and Marner and the already have JT at $11 mil more than either Hawk player.

FYI.. No NHL team has ever won a Stanley Cup with even 1 single player making double digit and Leafs already have 1 and AM is an automatic and maybe even 3 with Marner.

LOL You say that as if there's been double digit cap hits for 100 years.

Come talk to me in 5 years and we'll see what cap hits are winning Cups.

They're all not waiting until their late 20's to get paid properly.

As much as you want Dubas to manage like it's 2010....it simply proves you've seemed to have missed almost a decade of evolution of the game getting us to a point where youth coming out of ELC's are getting paid as they're now the dominant players on their teams.

And you try to bring in Nylander in 2018 by comparing him to $6.3 mil cap hits of many years ago.

 

[Notsince67]

Marner could score 100 points and he's still not touching 10 mil this season lol. That's how unprecedented it is.

RFA Wingers don't get deals like that. Him getting 8.5, which I COULD see happening, in itself would be ridiculously unprecedented for a star RFA Winger coming out of his ELC.

Kind of an unprecedented season. Beyond that, if the Cap moves to 85MM, it isn't hugely out of line with Patrick Kanes $$ as an RFA if you look at cap% and Kane's contract was only 5 years. $10MM x 8 wouldn't be that unprecedented.

 

[leburn98]

Well we are 2 and a half days away; would you still say in hindsight what dubas has done was a good strategy? I think it was a bad move; nylander's value has dropped significantly in trades; nylander wouldn't sign and dubas has wasted an asset (basically devalued the leafs asset) by wasting an entire year if willy doesnt sign

Until we see a trade, we won't know what his value is. An argument could be made that a team like Carolina may feel a bit of desperation to get a deal done given their scoring woes this season. While it would suck to not have Willy for a playoff run, the reality is that Nylander will remain an asset for the Leafs even if the deadline passes and continue to hold all of the leverage. This situation isn't a case of losing an asset for nothing (like the NYI with Tavares).

 

[Kiwi]

true; but i think his value is not going to be that much higher at the draft either.

dubas messed up big time there is no denying that. however, i am glad that he didn't bendover and give into the over inflated demands of nylander camp

Dubas is playing the cards he's delt, I can't blame him for this situation because I don't see what he could have done differently if Nylander was going to be this difficult

If he's getting delta do it at the draft

More teams with cap space, more interested teams, no deadline

 

[hockeywiz542]

Babcock doubles down on Nylander: 'We think he’s going to be a career Leaf'

With the William Nylander deadline inching closer, Mike Babcock was asked once again how he thinks things will play out come Saturday and the Leafs' coach doubled down on his previous comments.

 

[kb]

im not as big a G>A guy as some they are obviously better but I don't give as much credence as ive seen some do, so marner being a 25-75 guy is unreal to me.

just using the "logic" used in these threads to tear down nylander a peg or 2, for Marner

I forgot to put in the sarcasm font, lest people think I am being serious in calling Marner a 20 goal guy to bring him down. I don't. I think that points is the better barometer, specifically primary points. And if Marner does break 100 points, I still don't feel he is worth Kucherov money simply because of the lesser amount of UFA years bought.

But I agree. Some of the stances here are used to undermine and further agendas. I want to walk that middle ground because I can see the value, but definitely not "overpaid" value.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Dubas is playing the cards he's delt, I can't blame him for this situation because I don't see what he could have done differently if Nylander was going to be this difficult

If he's getting delta do it at the draft

More teams with cap space, more interested teams, no deadline

You also may have fallen in love with a top pick and want into the top end of the draft by that point.

And have teams currently scared to make a move that have moved on to looking to the future and are more willing to move pieces they won't consider moving right now.

A draft week trade makes way more sense then being backed into a corner over the next 48 hours.

 

[kb]

Timing my friend !!! .. .Kanes and Toews signed their $10.5 mil AFTER they won their 3 Cups..

Year 1 of their big cap hits started in 2015-16 and their 3rd and last Stanley Cup 2014-15.

They won their first Cup when they were on their ELC still and won Cups 2 & 3 while Toews ($6.3 mil) & Kane ($6.3 mil) .. That $6.3 mil isn't even going to get Nylander signed never mind Matthews and Marner and the already have JT at $11 mil more than either Hawk player.

FYI.. No NHL team has ever won a Stanley Cup with even 1 single player making double digit and Leafs already have 1 and AM is an automatic and maybe even 3 with Marner.

Question. You are always a big percentage of the cap person. What was the exact percentage of the cap that Toews and Kane took on their second deals, and compare it to say a $9 million hit for Marner?

 

[Crazy Monkey]

Timing my friend !!! .. .Kanes and Toews signed their $10.5 mil AFTER they won their 3 Cups..

Year 1 of their big cap hits started in 2015-16 and their 3rd and last Stanley Cup 2014-15.

They won their first Cup when they were on their ELC still and won Cups 2 & 3 while Toews ($6.3 mil) & Kane ($6.3 mil) .. That $6.3 mil isn't even going to get Nylander signed never mind Matthews and Marner and the already have JT at $11 mil more than either Hawk player.

FYI.. No NHL team has ever won a Stanley Cup with even 1 single player making double digit and Leafs already have 1 and AM is an automatic and maybe even 3 with Marner.

You're ignoring the increase in the salary cap and changes in contract structure to make your point, Mess. It's not an accurate reflection (percentage of cap would make more sense)

Also, Crosby was making double digits when they won. Just saying

Sidney Crosby's contract: The breakdown | CBC Sports

(I know it's salary and not cap hit)

 

[Nooodles]

Babcock doubles down on Nylander: 'We think he’s going to be a career Leaf'

With the William Nylander deadline inching closer, Mike Babcock was asked once again how he thinks things will play out come Saturday and the Leafs' coach doubled down on his previous comments.

But is he gonna be a gud gud pro Mike?

 

[Kiwi]

You also may have fallen in love with a top pick and want into the top end of the draft by that point.

And have teams currently scared to make a move that have moved on to looking to the future and are more willing to move pieces they won't consider moving right now.

A draft week trade makes way more sense then being backed into a corner over the next 48 hours.

A top 10 pick could certainly be a part of a package, but I'd imagine you'd want to know that's not Hughes before you trade it

It opens up more avenues for value imo, which is what I think a Nylander trade needs to look like

Max value for the asset

 

[kindalaidback]

but the team hates him and there is some bad blood and the relationship is damaged and he is cancer and disrupting the locker room and he is not good enough and doesn't help the team to win and he doesn't compete and the coach hates him and babcock doesn't know anything about anything because he and kyle avoid each other

live look into all your parlors (and friedman's)

babcock telling the media to f*** off- i'm loving it. it's also a direct shot at 95 percent of you.

 

[Notsince67]

does he? no other leaf got A bonuses at that time except Matthews, It seems a stretch to just assume marner chose to forgo going for A bonuses. Most likely the leafs refused like they did with Willy.

Unless you are talking about another instance he didn't take his advice?

Marner was the number 4 of an elite drafting class. He could have pushed it easily. His agent said that he didn't listen to him. Not sure why you are pushing this point because the comments are in the public domain.

 

[Menzinger]

Babcock doubles down on Nylander: 'We think he’s going to be a career Leaf'

With the William Nylander deadline inching closer, Mike Babcock was asked once again how he thinks things will play out come Saturday and the Leafs' coach doubled down on his previous comments.

Babs signalling to both Dubas and Nylander with stuff like this.

He knows what he’s doing.

 

[Daisy Jane]

marner took the b level bonus package, his agent wanted the a package... marner did not sign for no bonuses

that's what i meant. the A bonuses is where you make the real money. he didn't. so any "discount" marner gave the team already has been applicable.

 

[Not My Tempo]

 

[ULF_55]

Where are Scully and Mulder.

I'd really like to know the truth.

Unfortunately, those that know aren't talking and those that are talking don't know.

 

[leburn98]

Is Babcock a credible source?

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Wow is Babcock ever going all out here... this must have the consent of Dubas.

Maybe trying to apply some pressure on Nylander to sign?

 

[Notsince67]

I forgot to put in the sarcasm font, lest people think I am being serious in calling Marner a 20 goal guy to bring him down. I don't. I think that points is the better barometer, specifically primary points. And if Marner does break 100 points, I still don't feel he is worth Kucherov money simply because of the lesser amount of UFA years bought.

But I agree. Some of the stances here are used to undermine and further agendas. I want to walk that middle ground because I can see the value, but definitely not "overpaid" value.

I agree that Marner right now does not merit equality of circumstance with Kucherov. That being said, why isn't anyone talking about the fact that every star on that team appears to be paid a discounted amount due to the tax situation there? Everyone is hung up on 10MM as unprecedented and that Marner isn't worth it. I disagree. I think he is worth it...but the leafs can't afford it. That is why I think we are taking about a contract between a 3 year bridge or a 5 year deal to bring the cap hit in line. The leafs simply can't buy up UFA years

 

[Walshy7]

Marner was the number 4 of an elite drafting class. He could have pushed it easily. His agent said that he didn't listen to him. Not sure why you are pushing this point because the comments are in the public domain.

Toronto Maple Leafs sign Mitch Marner to entry-level contract | Maple Leafs Hotstove

this article said he got A bonuses. With quotes from Friedman saying he got them. But im not sure that's true, do you remember them getting Marners contract wrong in the media the first time? it also says salary is $925K which capfriendly says it is $894K so this article could very well be wrong.

 

[Burnie97]

Is Babcock a credible source?

No... only the media "insiders" know.

 

[DarkKnight]

Dubas was dealt a chronological hand. You can't sign Marner first, it was always Willie. The problem is, if they could have worked something out with Nylander during camp, Marner just might be signed already. Dubas had an order, and he couldn't just cave to keep some timetable. Unfortunately, this negotiation has had ripple effects, but that's nobody's fault.