Would Enforcers have prevented Kassian's kick?

barabas21

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Mar 9, 2016
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Considering Chris Simon did this kind of stuff regularly while guys like Probert and Domi were in the league, I'm gonna say no.

In fact, I'd say rats were more common in those days. Lemieux, Samuelsson, Tucker and Marchment come to mind as worse than anyone in the league today.

How did you decide on making the difference between Probert and Domi with Simon?

Chris Simon scored 29 goals right in the middle of the dead puck era. Probert got 29 in 87-88 with scoring very high and Domi topped at 15 (which too be honest surprised me). The difference is that Simon led his team in goals including having Bondra on the team.

Can you explain why you called out Simon?
 
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You're defeating your own argument, 3 player concussions a goon enforcer would have made sure that didn't happen. I've been watching hockey long enough to remember the self enforcing thing did work, no way Wilson would be running around trying to hurt players or he'd be picking his teeth off the ice.

He absolutely still would have. Self-enforcing never worked, it just looked like it did because people saw the "punishment" doled out live.
 

Betelgeuse

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Sep 21, 2018
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Great question. I think what might be the deeper question is, do enforcers prevent actions like this?

Kassian in another life might be an enforcer, but in today's NHL is probably the modern day enforcer-turned-player.

So... no.
 
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How did you decide on making the difference between Probert and Domi with Simon?

Chris Simon scored 29 goals right in the middle of the dead puck era. Probert got 29 in 87-88 with scoring very high and Domi topped at 15 (which too be honest surprised me). The difference is that Simon led his team in goals including having Bondra on the team.

Can you explain why you called out Simon?

So you made a thread basically advocating for the good old days but also apparently don't know who Chris Simon is? That's odd.
 

barabas21

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Mar 9, 2016
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Cooke existed in the time of enforcers and he literally ended careers.

Enforcement is a myth, legal physical punishing play is not.

Cooke was one player, how do you explain the brutal hits and shots from a number of players around the league?
 

1989

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Aug 3, 2010
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Cooke was one player, how do you explain the brutal hits and shots from a number of players around the league?
What does it matter that Cooke is one player? Is Kassian not also "one player"?

Nothing will really stop dangerous players other than disciplinary action from the League - as in, realistic suspensions for impulsive, dangerous actions.
Problem is that the League is only consistent in how inconsistent and inconsequential their punishments are.
Players are people too. Hit them in the pocketbook. Suspend for 5, 10, 15+ games regularly. Make the impact realistic.

People like to point to McSorley and Gretzky but the truth is nobody was stupid enough to actually run Gretzky if they wanted to continue a career in hockey. Every team had a McSorley back then.
 

barabas21

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What does it matter that Cooke is one player? Is Kassian not also "one player"?

Nothing will really stop dangerous players other than disciplinary action from the League - as in, realistic suspensions for impulsive, dangerous actions.
Problem is that the League is only consistent in how inconsistent and inconsequential their punishments are.

People like to point to McSorley and Gretzky but the truth is nobody was stupid enough to actually run Gretzky if they wanted to continue a career in hockey. Every team had a McSorley back then.

But how does disciplinary action prevent anything? What player has changed because of being suspended? Cooke changed after getting knocked senseless from Kane. Any other players you can reference?
 

Johnnybegood13

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Jul 11, 2003
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Kassian is not a tough player and he would have been a middle weight 10-15 years ago. I think if the Boogaards, Brashears etc. were still in the league Kassian would never have done that. Enforcers won't stop the average player from throwing a cheap shot, and haven't since the instigator. But now guys like Kassian, Lucic, Reaves etc. know they won't be held accountable so they throw cheap shots without any repercussions.

Lucic and Reaves used to play a tough honest game when the enforcers were in the league. They survived the purge and now are predatory and throw cheap shots. Kassian would have been kept in check for sure, because the big guys would have killed him.

So does the league need the atomic option?
Jesus, on what planet are Lucic and Reaves not heavyweights or enforcers? hardly anyone will fight them due to fear! Kassian is just a stupid meathead who picks on middleweights, Lucic asked him for a rumble 3 times this year and Kassian did the smart thing...go full small girl mode!
 

barabas21

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Nope. It's on his suspension record though. He also stomped on Kesler's leg while Hordichuk was playing for the Canucks.

Hordichuk was playing with Nashville that year....The year after that incident happened Vancouver signed Hordichuk. So at the time of the stomp they did not have an enforcer. The year after they signed Darcy Hordichuk
 

barabas21

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Jesus, on what planet are Lucic and Reaves not heavyweights or enforcers? hardly anyone will fight them due to fear! Kassian is just a stupid meathead who picks on middleweights, Lucic asked him for a rumble 3 times this year and Kassian did the smart thing...go full small girl mode!

If you watched Hockey prior to 2015 you would know they weren't heavyweights....They are now by default.
 

Snakepit

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Nov 19, 2013
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No, the wires crossed and he sees red. Consequences don't matter in those moments, be it from the league or from an enforcer
 

Countdown0

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So, the thing about having enforcers around to keep the rats and dirty players in line runs into two different problems that haven't been mentioned in this thread yet.

The first is the fact that the other team probably would have had an enforcer too. So sure, in theory, if "Rat" takes a cheap shot at someone on "Team 1", then "Enforcer 1" goes to address it. Thing is, then "Team 2" also has an enforcer, who we'll call "Enforcer 2". So, Rat just hides behind Enforcer 2, and then Enforcer 1 fights Enforcer 2, meanwhile Rat doesn't get so much as a scratch, and thus get's to keep being a dirty player.

The second problem is that the notion of "enforcers keep guys in line and protect the code" is clearly relying on intimidation. Now here's the thing about intimidation: its an extremely binary tool. By which I mean, intimidation doesn't really serve any purpose if it doesn't accomplish its primary purpose. This is especially true in any sport where violence is either allowed or is the whole point. Whether its hockey or its boxing, if you try to scare your opponent into behaving or competing a certain way, and your opponent isn't intimidated by you, then any effort and time that you put into trying to intimidate them is entirely wasted.

Simply put, intimidation either works, or it doesn't. Now I know someone is going to be tempted to be a smart ass and say "well, duh, everything either works or doesn't work!" But what I mean is that intimidation doesn't really have a gradient of success. Think of it like a math test that only has a single question, which is only worth a single point. In that case, there are two options. You either get 1/1, and so score 100%, or you get 0/1, and so score 0%. There isn't really any middle ground.

Compare this to, say, body checking, which DOES have a gradient of success. Sometimes you try to hit a guy, and either miss or just bounce off, failing entirely. Sometimes you bump him and he loses puck control a bit, and now the pair of you battle for it. Sometimes you pin him along the wall and, again, you have to battle for the puck. Then, sometimes, you just run him completely over, knocking him to the ice, and entirely separating him from the puck.

Given that intimidation is unreliable and highly binary in its effectiveness, and Kassian would probably have had a goon of his own on his team too who would step in and fight for him against the other goon, then I'm going to say that no, Enforcers wouldn't have prevented the kick. Kassian having some discipline and controlling his temper would have prevented the kick.
 
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1989

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But how does disciplinary action prevent anything? What player has changed because of being suspended? Cooke changed after getting knocked senseless from Kane. Any other players you can reference?
I'm not going to explain to you how removing a person from the game for extended periods of time, in which they are not paid, is a deterrent. That's just being obtuse.

Nearly every player who has ever received a suspension for over 20+ games never committed a serious infraction again; the only notable exceptions being Chris Simon and Raffi Torres who also hold reputations as being "unhinged" at times, similar to Kassian now.

Cooke changed so much he got suspended two more times after the Kane fight and injured one more star in Karlsson. So much for deterrence. Do you think Cooke also stopped getting into fights with "deterrents" after?

The majority, if not all, of the most dirty, suspendable plays all happened in NHL's much more violent past, with "enforcers" and "tough guys" across every team. Didn't seem to stop the long list of dirty plays back then either. They just answered The Code™ while the other non-enforcer star player's career got cut short from injury.

What the NHL hasn't tried is extremely punishing suspensions. 10 game minimums and 20 games suspensions including playoffs with regular enforcement.

When you're suddenly losing a quarter of your annual salary (and let's be honest, goon types are bottom sixers who aren't paid much in the first place) and not helping your team by being legally physical (fighting is not legal, it's why there's a penalty for it) and playing, a person might just reconsider what their actions are worth.

The dumbest thing about it all is the fact that these players all participate in the same NHLPA which protects them while they go out and destroy each other's careers.
 
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I'm not going to explain to you how removing a person from the game for extended periods of time, in which they are not paid, is a deterrent. That's just being obtuse.

Nearly every player who has ever received a suspension for over 20+ games never committed a serious infraction again; the only notable exceptions being Chris Simon and Raffi Torres who also hold reputations as being "unhinged" at times, similar to Kassian now.

Cooke changed so much he got suspended two more times after the Kane fight and injured one more star in Karlsson. So much for deterrence. Do you think Cooke also stopped getting into fights with "deterrents" after?

The majority, if not all, of the most dirty, suspendable plays all happened in NHL's much more violent past, with "enforcers" and "tough guys" across every team. Didn't seem to stop the long list of dirty plays back then either.

What the NHL hasn't tried is extremely punishing suspensions. 10 game minimums, 20 games, the entirety of playoffs, with regular enforcement.

The dumbest thing about it all is the fact that these players all participate in the same NHLPA which protects them while they go out and destroy each other's careers.

The irony is Cooke admitted that the 2011 suspension was a wakeup call. Obviously he didn't change into a completely clean player, as seen by the Barrie suspension(certainly not the Karlsson thing, that's very different), but he did seem to knock off the headhunting.

Its actually a good example of the league being much better at policing than the players are.
 

barabas21

Registered User
Mar 9, 2016
294
342
I'm not going to explain to you how removing a person from the game for extended periods of time, in which they are not paid, is a deterrent. That's just being obtuse.

Nearly every player who has ever received a suspension for over 20+ games never committed a serious infraction again; the only notable exceptions being Chris Simon and Raffi Torres who also hold reputations as being "unhinged" at times, similar to Kassian now.

Cooke changed so much he got suspended two more times after the Kane fight and injured one more star in Karlsson. So much for deterrence. Do you think Cooke also stopped getting into fights with "deterrents" after?

The majority, if not all, of the most dirty, suspendable plays all happened in NHL's much more violent past, with "enforcers" and "tough guys" across every team. Didn't seem to stop the long list of dirty plays back then either. They just answered The Code™ while the other non-enforcer star player's career got cut short from injury.

What the NHL hasn't tried is extremely punishing suspensions. 10 game minimums and 20 games suspensions including playoffs with regular enforcement.

When you're suddenly losing a quarter of your annual salary (and let's be honest, goon types are bottom sixers who aren't paid much in the first place) and not helping your team by being legally physical (fighting is not legal, it's why there's a penalty for it) and playing, a person might just reconsider what their actions are worth.

The dumbest thing about it all is the fact that these players all participate in the same NHLPA which protects them while they go out and destroy each other's careers.

I actually agree if major suspensions were handed out it would decrease dirty hits big time. I also think it would take a lot of the hitting out of hockey, maybe you would watch hockey without physicality but I won't.
 

barabas21

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Mar 9, 2016
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The irony is Cooke admitted that the 2011 suspension was a wakeup call. Obviously he didn't change into a completely clean player, as seen by the Barrie suspension(certainly not the Karlsson thing, that's very different), but he did seem to knock off the headhunting.

Its actually a good example of the league being much better at policing than the players are.

Of course the player that wants to continue making 6 or 7 figures a year will say the suspension has changed him. Could you imagine if he came out and said the suspension did nothing but me getting slapped around for the world to see actually changed me
 

1989

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The irony is Cooke admitted that the 2011 suspension was a wakeup call. Obviously he didn't change into a completely clean player, as seen by the Barrie suspension(certainly not the Karlsson thing, that's very different), but he did seem to knock off the headhunting.

Its actually a good example of the league being much better at policing than the players are.
Can't give him the benefit of the doubt due to history. Yes, it may have been purely accidental but there's just no way to know for sure, though I understand why it's "different."

On the other hand we have Kassian who repeatedly admits in post-game interviews that he rarely ever regrets his on-ice actions and repeats things like "I wish I only hit him harder." And like him and Chris Simon they do not learn from anything other than the most serious of punishments because they grew up fighting and being aggressive, what's another big fish in a small pond? Make your questionable hit, get your 5 minutes in the box, rinse and repeat. The NHL as it is now can't even be guaranteed to pass on meaningful disciplinary action so there's even less deterrence.
 

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