GWT: World Cup - Semifinals - Croatia v. Argentina

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Gary Neville said it isn't one. And he's usually right on most things.....

Neville is usually wrong in fact I dont ever remember him being right. Players aren't afraid of Messi is one of the few gems he's given us in the past couple of weeks. He's absolutely brain dead and shouldn't be taken seriously. As a manager, pundit or footballer.

 

[Panteras]

I’m supposed to be at work lmaooo

At least now we know you’re not a rail worker

 

[BMann]

He doesn’t really have a lot of haters.

He does. It amazes me but he does. Some have an unhealthy obsession with it too.

It's pretty sad considering that he is a generational player that comes around only once every thirty years. They mock all his achievements and take any opportunity where he stumbles to deride him as a player and claim he's not all that.

Seriously anyone who thinks the inferior Ronaldo is a better player than Leo in any aspect of the game have zero understanding of football. The metrics are there in black and white as well as to the naked eye.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

He does. It amazes me but he does. Some have an unhealthy obsession with it too.

It's pretty sad considering that he is a generational player that comes around only once every thirty years. They mock all his achievements and take any opportunity where he stumbles to deride him as a player and claim he's not all that.

Seriously anyone who thinks the inferior Ronaldo is a better player than Leo in any aspect of the game have zero understanding of football. The metrics are there in black and white as well as to the naked eye.

I mean he's a better at heading and has a stronger shot but that's pretty much it. Always was the case. Fk ronaldo started better but Messi vastly improved that aspect and over took him in like 2014.

 

[luiginb]

Seriously anyone who thinks the inferior Ronaldo is a better player than Leo in any aspect of the game have zero understanding of football. The metrics are there in black and white as well as to the naked eye.

Dont shoot the messenger but you made me curious, sofascore has Cristiano better at defending, while whoscored has him better at finishing. Messi clear on all the other categories on both sites though.

 

[BMann]

Neville is usually wrong in fact I dont ever remember him being right. Players aren't afraid of Messi is one of the few gems he's given us in the past couple of weeks. He's absolutely brain dead and shouldn't be taken seriously. As a manager, pundit or footballer.

Twas sarcasm. He's a complete dolt and been made to look like the fool he is numerous times. He can join Souness who claimed Lisandro Martinez was too small to be a PL defender.

How these dunderheads get jobs as pundits beats me. I wonder why he's not returned to football management. Utterly clueless as with Ian Wright. Even Roy Keane was wrong on the penalty as the referee Peter Walton tried to patiently explain the laws of the game to them.

But the idiots were not having it. It's best to turn off before, during half time and after matches so you don't have to listen to the drivel that emanates from them. Alex Scott, Martin Keown are their dumb counterparts on the BBC. Utterly awful. Especially Scott gulping her words to show her learned elocution. Painful.

Dont shoot the messenger but you made me curious, sofascore has Cristiano better at defending, while whoscored has him better at finishing. Messi clear on all the other categories on both sites though.

In terms of all attacking metrics luigi for midfielders and attackers. Defending wise his takeaways so to speak and other defensive metrics have declined considerably as he has aged although they showed a resurgence at the Copa.

But I'm strictly talking about attacking metrics. He's off the chart. Diego was born in 1960, Messi in 1987 so the next generational talent should have been born about three years ago. Maybe in Argentina, maybe somewhere else.

 

[Karterthadon]

I don't buy this argument that players of the past could not hack it today either. Or vice versa. That level of innate skill and spatial awareness remains and sets them apart. All the likes of Varela, Puskas, Loustau, Djalma Santos etc etc would stand out today if they had modern physical training and nutrition.

Greatness is greatness, the obvious difference between era's, as far as individual talent goes, is that you average player nowadays is miles better than the average player from the 40's.

I'll disagree with you on one thing, Maradonna would obviously have a much better career in this cupcake era where a foul is called if an opposing player sneezes on you. I also don't think Messi gets to reach these heights if he plays in Maradonna's era where the game plan was litterally "Let's try to break his ankle before half".

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Greatness is greatness, the obvious difference between era's, as far as individual talent goes, is that you average player nowadays is miles better than the average player from the 40's.

I'll disagree with you on one thing, Maradonna would obviously have a much better career in this cupcake era where a foul is called if an opposing player sneezes on you. I also don't think Messi gets to reach these heights if he plays in Maradonna's era where the game plan was litterally "Let's try to break his ankle before half".

He absolutely would there isn’t a single player who’s as smart as him past or present.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Twas sarcasm. He's a complete dolt and been made to look like the fool he is numerous times. He can join Souness who claimed Lisandro Martinez was too small to be a PL defender.

How these dunderheads get jobs as pundits beats me. I wonder why he's not returned to football management. Utterly clueless as with Ian Wright. Even Roy Keane was wrong on the penalty as the referee Peter Walton tried to patiently explain the laws of the game to them.

But the idiots were not having it. It's best to turn off before, during half time and after matches so you don't have to listen to the drivel that emanates from them. Alex Scott, Martin Keown are their dumb counterparts on the BBC. Utterly awful. Especially Scott gulping her words to show her learned elocution. Painful.

Oh yea that makes sense. He’s a buffoon

 

[cgf]

Congrats! @Duchene2MacKinnon

Now take care of business in the final

 

[Islesfan22]

Argentina better team and deserved win. Croatia were controlling the game with there midfield up until the pk which was soft but a terrible mistake by the Croatian central defenders. Croatia got exposed with there lack of a threat up front. Messi what can you say he’s the best.

 

[luiginb]

Scaloni needs some credit as well. He saw Tite's side get overrun in midfield cause he only played one defensively sound midfielder, so he started four of them today! That midfield looked like something Simeone uses at Atletico, but with three of them making offensive runs + Messi + Alvarez + Molina and Tagliafico coming up the flanks it worked like a charm.

I was surprised Dalic didn't try and use the flanks more and didn't put his taller strikers in. I'd have started Kramaric-Petkovic-Perisic and put in Budimir too at half time. Crosses were the only way to go against this Argentina side. And just HOW BAD they played the corners, it kills me inside every time when a team has height and plays short corners, it's not like vintage Barcelona where no one except Pique was over 1.80m. Croatia is TALL.

 

[BMann]

Greatness is greatness, the obvious difference between era's, as far as individual talent goes, is that you average player nowadays is miles better than the average player from the 40's.

I'll disagree with you on one thing, Maradonna would obviously have a much better career in this cupcake era where a foul is called if an opposing player sneezes on you. I also don't think Messi gets to reach these heights if he plays in Maradonna's era where the game plan was litterally "Let's try to break his ankle before half".

I don't think this would happen. The great players always have that special sense of balance almost superhuman and agility to avoid the challenges. What would happen though is that the careers of many players like Messi would have shorter peaks because there is only so much avoiding one can do and the injuries do accumulate.

It certainly affected Maradona. You'll have seen those challenges. They would merit several game bans now. The cynicism of certain defenders that were lauded back in the day like Gentile would be severely punished now. Gentile say unlike Scirea would never had a career. He was an out and out thug devoid of any ability but that to hack at players.

 

[Karterthadon]

He absolutely would there isn’t a single player who’s as smart as him past or present.

Nothing to do with intelligence, it was simply a different era.

These things add up, bigly, you don't just brush yourself off from broken things.

Don't know if you're a NFL fan but it's same with the rules now protecting the Qb's. John Elway was every bit as good as Mahomes or Allen yet go check out how poorly his numbers fare compared to the youngs guns of today. Elway played in an era where defenders could chop him off at his knees or try to blow his head off.

 

[BMann]

Scaloni needs some credit as well. He saw Tite's side get overrun in midfield cause he only played one defensively sound midfielder, so he started four of them today! That midfield looked like something Simeone uses at Atletico, but with three of them making offensive runs + Messi + Alvarez + Molina and Tagliafico coming up the flanks it worked like a charm.

None of them are out and out DMs. Paredes should never be considered a DM. I hope once the Mundial is over his time at the seleccion is over.

There is a generation of great midfield talent coming from Argentina led by Enzo to replace him. The current midfield does a bit of everything and does it well.

​

 

[luiginb]

None of them are out and out DMs. Paredes should never be considered a DM. I hope once the Mundial is over his time at the seleccion is over.

There is a generation of great midfield talent coming from Argentina led by Enzo to replace him. The current midfield does a bit of everything and does it well.

​

I didn't say they were DMs, I said they were all defensively sound. And I still think that if I need to protect a lead Paredes is the one I'd go to out of those four in terms of defensive responsibility (the Netherlands game notwithstanding)

 

[BMann]

I didn't say they were DMs, I said they were all defensively sound. And I still think that if I need to protect a lead Paredes is the one I'd go to out of those four in terms of defensive responsibility (the Netherlands game notwithstanding)

Paredes is a hothead and lacks discipline. Always makes a rash challenge and concedes needless free kicks like he did today as usual. I'd rather have Guido is is well disciplined and patrols his area or even Licha. Not Paredes.

He was lucky not to be sent off against Holland and completely caused the side to lose focus against Holland as did Scaloni. Awful substitution.

 

[luiginb]

Hey I love Guido and was on record saying this is going to be his coming out party cause whoever doesn't watch Betis doesn't know what a complete midfielder he is, but Scaloni obviously doesn't trust him to start, I think he only got 45 minutes or so this WC.

 

[Live in the Now]

Just saw a video of Scaloni after the first goal and man that's a guy who somehow keeps everything bottled up inside until the game is over. I couldn't do it. Very close to breaking down after the goal this guy.

 

[Power Man]

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Congrats! @Duchene2MacKinnon

Now take care of business in the final

Here’s hoping. 2018 rematch proved successful maybe 2/2??

Nothing to do with intelligence, it was simply a different era.

These things add up, bigly, you don't just brush yourself off from broken things.

Don't know if you're a NFL fan but it's same with the rules now protecting the Qb's. John Elway was every bit as good as Mahomes or Allen yet go check out how poorly his numbers fare compared to the youngs guns of today. Elway played in an era where defenders could chop him off at his knees or try to blow his head off.

Messi is very strong and elusive as well as having the ability to ride challenges. He’D be the best in any era or league. Too smart, fast and talented not to. Remember how physical madrid teams were they would legit try to injury him and he just coming back for more. Ask pepe, ramos or Simeones goons.

None of them are out and out DMs. Paredes should never be considered a DM. I hope once the Mundial is over his time at the seleccion is over.

There is a generation of great midfield talent coming from Argentina led by Enzo to replace him. The current midfield does a bit of everything and does it well.

​

I don’t want Enzo as a out an out DM. There are others coming through in waves. Varela, Vera, perrone and more.

Paredes is a hothead and lacks discipline. Always makes a rash challenge and concedes needless free kicks like he did today as usual. I'd rather have Guido is is well disciplined and patrols his area or even Licha. Not Paredes.

He was lucky not to be sent off against Holland and completely caused the side to lose focus against Holland as did Scaloni. Awful substitution.

Guido was bad and shouldn’t be playing

 

[Maestro84]

It's hard to determine who the GOAT is becase I feel like there have been so many special players in this sport in each era, but I can say that both Messi and Ronaldo are easily among the greatest to ever do it.

In chronological order you have Puskas, Pele, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Maradona, Platini, Brazil Ronaldo, Zidane, C Ronaldo, and Messi (those are the gods of gods in football)

 

[les Habs]

Big win for Argentina and I thought they should’ve had another penalty with Gvardiol‘s intentional handball. Messi coming up big when the chips were down, yet again. Have to note Alvarez though. As I said prior to the tournament, he’d be one to watch if he got the minutes and he certainly has been. I recently traded for him in the keeper league I’m in and was thrilled to get hIm. Glad to have concluded that deal before the WC. Also, have to say the fullbacks were tireless today for Argentina.

Regarding Messi and Ronaldo, I have to say that Ronaldo deserves a ton of respect for the physical condition he’s maintained which has played a large part in his success. That said, and I’ve had to say this before on this forum, Messi is on his own tier. Plenty of ways to compare them, and I hear a lot about Ronaldo’s goals. Well if you compared their goals you’d quickly realize during that comparison just how many of Messi’s goals are amazing. So much so that it seems commonplace for him and thus nothing special despite the fact that nobody else scores that many amazing goals.

Tournament isn’t over, but I’ll get ahead of a potential Argentine loss. Argentina could have gone out in the group stage and Messi would still be the best ever. Still, here they are now in the Final, again, thanks in large part to him. People talking about winning a WC as the measuring stick. It’s not, the CL is and has been for a long time. Still, making the WC final, twice, whether you win it or not, is still huge. Add to that a Copa America win and Messi’s international reputation is secured.

Final though, Gvardiol should sign for Barca. In about 8 months he can face that same scenario in practice against Messi every day.

It was settled a long time ago. This is just more stuff on the pile.

Yeah, when Messi was about 19 years old.

Messi just strapped Argentina on his shoulders today

I wasn’t aware he ever took them off his shoulders.

 

[Corto]

I was surprised Dalic didn't try and use the flanks more and didn't put his taller strikers in. I'd have started Kramaric-Petkovic-Perisic and put in Budimir too at half time. Crosses were the only way to go against this Argentina side. And just HOW BAD they played the corners, it kills me inside every time when a team has height and plays short corners, it's not like vintage Barcelona where no one except Pique was over 1.80m. Croatia is TALL.

Croatia isn't really tall though. Nor fast. We are tall if we put in Petkovic and Budimir, but they're useless at actually playing football at this level.

Nothing surprising about the game really, we can control the game (with very few actual scoring chances) and win 1-0 etc - this has been the case since Mandzukic retired and Rebic fell off (and later fell out with Dalic).

The penalty... Meh, I dunno... It's 50/50, Livakovic had his feet set by the time Alvarez ran into him, the Croatian refs on the national TV are saying it's not a pen, but to me it's 50/50 and I'd want one whistled for us if the tables were turned.
Lovren has been a rock for the NT for years, but he messed up that play badly.

Anyway... Look, we scored 2 goals in 5 games (plus another 60 mins of extra time) if you take out the Canada game.
We have the mentality, the defenders, the midfield, etc.... But our scoring is dog poo.
It's not that our forward misplay chances, they lack the awareness and quality to even get into scoring chances. The few guys that do it at their clubs at a high level, do it in different systems (Kramaric, Pasalic).

We got good talent coming up, with Gvardiol spearheading them. Sutalo, Erlic and Stanisic as defenders, Sosa is 24, Majer and Sucic in the midfield, etc. What we sorely need is for one of the forward talents to develop properly, Simic from Salzburg, Vidovic from Bayern, maybe even if Musa continues to develop he might be "good enough" for big tournaments. Couple of those and one more midfielder to go with Majer and Sucic and we're good for the next decade.

We didn't really need a world class striker with this midfield - we just needed a mediocre one - but we just don't have one (though Dalic could've tried Musa).

Anyway, GG to Argentina, they were tidy, they were better, and well, Messi is Messi.

 

[Evilo]

He was rarely average. And if he had not fallen into the wrong crowd who knows what he might have achieved. He had no team around him like modern players do.

Many truly great players have suffered as a result. Garrincha, Corbatta, Best to name three.

I don't buy this argument that players of the past could not hack it today either. Or vice versa. That level of innate skill and spatial awareness remains and sets them apart. All the likes of Varela, Puskas, Loustau, Djalma Santos etc etc would stand out today if they had modern physical training and nutrition.


Gary Neville said it isn't one. And he's usually right on most things.....

He was average for many stretches, probably under influence of various substances.
Yes, he was a could have been.
The same way people think Mario could have been at Gretzky's level and was arguably more talented.
I have no problem saying Maradona was the most talented player ever. But IMO, he didn't even have the best career of the 80s. His 86 WC is one to remember, he was unplayable. But so was Platini in 84.

I agree some players from the past would be very competitive now with the current methods. Especially players relying on their IQ rather than explosiveness. Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Maradona, Pele or Platini were above all players with absolute uber football IQ.