Wings sign Filppula to a 2 year deal

[obey86]

Since you edited your post after I quoted it this will be my last response on the topic.

Pointing out people's supposed hypocrisy isn't discussing hockey. It's discussing the person. Calling someone a hypocrite is an insult. So your whole objective is to insult people.

Also, when you're trying to demonstrate how you're so much better than everyone else, it helps if you spell hypocrisy correctly.

Never once did I say I was better than anyone else. Nor did I say I was a better speller than anyone else. I made a spelling mistake on a message board, OH NO.

Saying someone is practicing hypocrisy is not an insult. It's simply stating someone's behavior.

 

[Bench]

Saying someone is practicing hypocrisy is not an insult. It's simply stating someone's behavior.

 

[Oddbob]

OT - I know the NTC probably doesn't prevent a move in the time of the deal, however I hate the whole NHL thing of every marginal or depth veteran gets this sort of protection. To me, if players like Ericsson, Abdelkader, Filppula won't sign without one, than fine, SEE YA!

 

[RedMenace]

I'm no internet doctor, but it seems like this thread is toast.

 

[Invictus12]

Yes, you absolutely did misrepresent my point.

The person does matter. Just not in the way you're representing it. This is not that hard to understand.

People are basing their opinion of the contract in part on the judgment of the GM. Holland was here 20+ years. He has a long track record with the Wings and the highs and lows that go with it. If Holland were the one giving this contract to Filppula some people might be skeptical of the signing given the poor judgment he's shown with former players in the past.

Yzerman on the other hand has been on the job how many weeks now? He is just starting his track record as GM of the Wings. He doesn't have any Dan Cleary's or Abdelkader's with the Wings yet. It's not surprising people might take a "wait and see" approach.

These things don't happen in a vacuum.

Complaining about how people hypothetically would have responded if it were Holland is really just a way to insult the members of this forum and has nothing to do with discussing hockey.

So you're basically saying that Filp is a good signing because Yzerman did it. If it was Holland then the signing is bad?
Do you really think that it's a good way to judge this signing?

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

So you're basically saying that Filp is a good signing because Yzerman did it. If it was Holland then the signing is bad?
Do you really think that it's a good way to judge this signing?

Christ on a cracker. It should be obvious that's not what I'm saying at all but if you want to find something to be upset about, go for it.

Obviously it's worth evaluating and discussing all the moves Yzerman makes here. That's kinda the point of this forum. What isn't, is the crying about how people hypothetically would've reacted if Holland had done it.

 

[Invictus12]

Christ on a cracker. It should be obvious that's not what I'm saying at all but if you want to find something to be upset about, go for it.

Obviously it's worth evaluating and discussing all the moves Yzerman makes here. That's kinda the point of this forum. What isn't, is the crying about how people hypothetically would've reacted if Holland had done it.

With all due respect, it sounded exactly like that. I personally don't hate the signing but it is something like what Holland would have done. From someone who defended Holland, it's interesting to see that there's no bashing this move. There's little doubt on my part that had Holland made this move this offseason, there would have been lots of crying.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

With all due respect, it sounded exactly like that. I personally don't hate the signing but it is something like what Holland would have done. From someone who defended Holland, it's interesting to see that there's no bashing this move. There's little doubt on my part that had Holland made this move this offseason, there would have been lots of crying.

He got crushed the year before when he was rumored to be looking at Flip as insurance for Z before he signed on Long Island... So we actually do know how most of the board felt about Holland looking at bringing back Flip already. So yeah it kind of already happened from what I remember.

Let's try to get back on discussing Filppula.

Most know it has been annoying to be on the other side of the Holland debate for the last couple years. While yes, I as well from time to time ask this question with an incredulous look on my face. It isn't really fostering more discussion and continues to drive thread talk into the toilet.

Kind of like we had to curb Babcock talk at a certain point we need to move on. Holland is in Edmonton, I wish him the best there and think he will prove his HHOF worth out there. But we need to hope Stevie can build off a decent foundation he has inherited. They aren't in as bad of a shape after his final three years. But now it is on Yzerman, it is really time to start evaluating what he does. He is going to be quite similar to Holland. Yzerman himself has always said as much. But we need to evaluate him through his own prism in my opinion. His vision drives us forward, hopefully he has plans. I expect action over the next 12 months on this roster, it is time to start getting better, this should be our last bottom five year so hopefully he gets the next 12 months right in my opinion.

Filppula serves a purpose, he allows Veleno to be developed properly and when he is ready Flip can be pushed down the lineup at either center or wing. He is trustworthy and doesn't impact what we are doing. I still get it, wish we could have kept it to one year, but this won't impact Stevie's picture long-term.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

With all due respect, it sounded exactly like that. I personally don't hate the signing but it is something like what Holland would have done. From someone who defended Holland, it's interesting to see that there's no bashing this move. There's little doubt on my part that had Holland made this move this offseason, there would have been lots of crying.

First, so what if there would have been lots of crying? You guys are upset because there's less complaining? And frankly I don't think you're giving people here enough credit. There would've been some crying from the usual suspects, but many people who've been critical of Holland have been complimentary of his more recent moves.

If this is a 5 year deal, I'm pissed. A 2 year deal should be fine. Hopefully it gets AA to wing and Abby on the 4th line or press box. If Flip craps the bed it doesn't kill us. Though he may get PTSD when he has to listen to Blashill's constant Babcock impression.

Second, if that's what it sounds like then you're completely misunderstanding my point. I'm not even talking about the Filppula trade specifically or my opinion of it. I'm just trying to explain why people might be more skeptical if Holland made this move. The reality is we don't know if this will be a good or bad deal yet. Flip hasn't played a game. We're evaluating it right now on what little we know and projecting how it will be in the future. Some people will take the track record of the GM into consideration when projecting into the future. That doesn't make them hypocrites. It's like taking into consideration the track record of a scout when evaluating prospects. I don't know another way to explain to make it clearer and I've already helped drag this thread so far off topic.

 

[Invictus12]

He got crushed the year before when he was rumored to be looking at Flip as insurance for Z before he signed on Long Island... So we actually do know how most of the board felt about Holland looking at bringing back Flip already. So yeah it kind of already happened from what I remember.

Let's try to get back on discussing Filppula.

Most know it has been annoying to be on the other side of the Holland debate for the last couple years. While yes, I as well from time to time ask this question with an incredulous look on my face. It isn't really fostering more discussion and continues to drive thread talk into the toilet.

Kind of like we had to curb Babcock talk at a certain point we need to move on. Holland is in Edmonton, I wish him the best there and think he will prove his HHOF worth out there. But we need to hope Stevie can build off a decent foundation he has inherited. They aren't in as bad of a shape after his final three years. But now it is on Yzerman, it is really time to start evaluating what he does. He is going to be quite similar to Holland. Yzerman himself has always said as much. But we need to evaluate him through his own prism in my opinion. His vision drives us forward, hopefully he has plans. I expect action over the next 12 months on this roster, it is time to start getting better, this should be our last bottom five year so hopefully he gets the next 12 months right in my opinion.

Filppula serves a purpose, he allows Veleno to be developed properly and when he is ready Flip can be pushed down the lineup at either center or wing. He is trustworthy and doesn't impact what we are doing. I still get it, wish we could have kept it to one year, but this won't impact Stevie's picture long-term.

I agree, I would have prefered one year as well. However, with the defence as it is, we should focus and development and Filppula allows Veleno to go the proper route.

 

[Invictus12]

First, so what if there would have been lots of crying? You guys are upset because there's less complaining? And frankly I don't think you're giving people here enough credit. There would've been some crying from the usual suspects, but many people who've been critical of Holland have been complimentary of his more recent moves.

If this is a 5 year deal, I'm pissed. A 2 year deal should be fine. Hopefully it gets AA to wing and Abby on the 4th line or press box. If Flip craps the bed it doesn't kill us. Though he may get PTSD when he has to listen to Blashill's constant Babcock impression.

Second, if that's what it sounds like then you're completely misunderstanding my point. I'm not even talking about the Filppula trade specifically or my opinion of it. I'm just trying to explain why people might be more skeptical if Holland made this move. The reality is we don't know if this will be a good or bad deal yet. Flip hasn't played a game. We're evaluating it right now on what little we know and projecting how it will be in the future. Some people will take the track record of the GM into consideration when projecting into the future. That doesn't make them hypocrites. It's like taking into consideration the track record of a scout when evaluating prospects. I don't know another way to explain to make it clearer and I've already helped drag this thread so far off topic.

I'm glad there is no crying but it is weird. And good on everyone but lets not pretend like there isn't a double standard here and that's what get under the skin of some here. It's understandable too. And no, giving Yzerman a pass doesn't make sense to me. You either like the signing or you don't. The person that made it shouldn't play a role but obviously it does.

 

[obey86]

First, so what if there would have been lots of crying? You guys are upset because there's less complaining? And frankly I don't think you're giving people here enough credit. There would've been some crying from the usual suspects, but many people who've been critical of Holland have been complimentary of his more recent moves.

If this is a 5 year deal, I'm pissed. A 2 year deal should be fine. Hopefully it gets AA to wing and Abby on the 4th line or press box. If Flip craps the bed it doesn't kill us. Though he may get PTSD when he has to listen to Blashill's constant Babcock impression.

Second, if that's what it sounds like then you're completely misunderstanding my point. I'm not even talking about the Filppula trade specifically or my opinion of it. I'm just trying to explain why people might be more skeptical if Holland made this move. The reality is we don't know if this will be a good or bad deal yet. Flip hasn't played a game. We're evaluating it right now on what little we know and projecting how it will be in the future. Some people will take the track record of the GM into consideration when projecting into the future. That doesn't make them hypocrites. It's like taking into consideration the track record of a scout when evaluating prospects. I don't know another way to explain to make it clearer and I've already helped drag this thread so far off topic.

Can you explain how GM track record would change anything about how well Flip is going to perform or how his signing affects the team given the current roster construction at the time of signing? I guess I just don't understand.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Can you explain how GM track record would change anything about how well Flip is going to perform or how his signing affects the team given the current roster construction at the time of signing? I guess I just don't understand.

GM track record obviously doesn't directly impact Flip's performance but as I said in evaluating this deal we're projecting how we think Flip will do in the next 2 years on the Wings.

So one factor is the judgment of the GM as to how he's playing now, how he might play next year, how he affects the lineup. We have our opinions on that based on what we see in games but we're not in the locker room, or at practice, or on the phones knowing what the UFA market is like. We don't know what the plan is. We're speculating from the outside. So some people factor in the judgment of the GM.

In the past, Holland has shown poor judgment regarding signing former players well after they were useful. It's been several years since he's done that so I wouldn't hold it against him that strongly personally, but I think some people are leery of his judgment with former players. Whereas Yzerman traded Flip a few years ago so it's unlikely this is a sentimental move. So if you think Yzerman has a good handle on Filppula as a player and has some master plan we haven't seen yet, you're probably less likely to freak out.

I guess it comes down to if you think the experts' opinions should influence how you feel about a signing. If I think a player is dogcrap but Hakan Andersson feels strongly the prospect will be a good player, that has weight for me. I'm going to suddenly like that player but it's going to factor into the equation. Sure I may have seen the kid play but I also trust Andersson's judgment based on his track record.

If you think it shouldn't be a factor, that's fine. But it doesn't automatically make people hypocrites because they're reacting differently.

 

[Bench]

I don't think it's controversial and even completely normal to say that the person making the decisions, and their history, influences how we view the moves. It's exactly why Holland had such a long leash in Detroit. He had done so much good, it took a long, long time for the fans to turn a critical eye to his moves. Myself included.

 

[Claypool]

In the past, Holland has shown poor judgment regarding signing former players well after they were useful.

Let's stop pretending Mike Babcock had no influence on these signings. Holland ultimately made the call, yes, but if your Stanley Cup-winning coach says he wants Dan Cleary and Mikael Samuelsson back then you really have no choice.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Let's stop pretending Mike Babcock had no influence on these signings. Holland ultimately made the call, yes, but if your Stanley Cup-winning coach says he wants Dan Cleary and Mikael Samuelsson back then you really have no choice.

If Holland went against his better judgment to sign those players because Mike Babcock wanted them and he "had no choice," Holland should've been fired immediately.

Obviously the GM takes input from the coach but if the coach is pulling the strings then you have a dysfunctional organization.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Let's stop pretending Mike Babcock had no influence on these signings. Holland ultimately made the call, yes, but if your Stanley Cup-winning coach says he wants Dan Cleary and Mikael Samuelsson back then you really have no choice.

The strangest failure of a Babcock directed signing was Weiss. Who he gave up on for being injured. But I have heard Gord Miller and others tell stories about how Stephen Weiss was a Babcock signing. He had campaigned for him. Again in the moment I didn't disagree but that contract went spectacularly belly up in part because of how quick Babcock gave up on Weiss and how Weiss felt pretty pressured to be in the lineup when he wasn't right. You can't always be perfect every once in a while it just goes against you I guess would be some of the point.

 

[MBH]

The strangest failure of a Babcock directed signing was Weiss. Who he gave up on for being injured. But I have heard Gord Miller and others tell stories about how Stephen Weiss was a Babcock signing. He had campaigned for him. Again in the moment I didn't disagree but that contract went spectacularly belly up in part because of how quick Babcock gave up on Weiss and how Weiss felt pretty pressured to be in the lineup when he wasn't right. You can't always be perfect every once in a while it just goes against you I guess would be some of the point.

There's got to be more than meets the eye. Because Weiss's career was just over. Like, nothing. No news. No stories about him trying to come back or get a PTO.

 

[CupsOverCash]

TB fan just stopping by in peace. I know you guys know SY will be fine for you guys. Just wanted to say that I wouldnt expect the same job SY did for us right away. 2011 TB was a different team than this Detroit team is. TB then had Lecavelier, St. Louis, Stamkos, Hedman, etc. Some veteran guys who were ready to win and compete. SY was able to make now moves then but heres the thing. He still worked with the future in mind. He preached patience with TB fans and he was right. After that year we rebuilt the team. It took a little while as we didnt have playoff success until 2015 again. With SY in charge he will do the right thing. Even if it means building the team up for a few years before competing. When they compete though they will compete. Just my .2 cents from TB fan who has a lot of respect for SY.

 

[Retire91]

Who said Yzerman wasn't trashed for this signing? I hate it and I called it out. Yzerman is not criticism proof but he is not going to get the same level as Holland at this stage because Yzerman hasn't been here and doing terrible contracts for like 8 seasons in a row. Is it a crummy pointless signing? Yes. Is is it a red flag to be concerned about, not without more of the same behavior to indicate a pattern. Holland had that pattern and he probably also would have signed 5 years, more $, and NMC.

 

[Gniwder]

Holland had that pattern and he probably also would have signed 5 years, more $, and NMC.

Yeah, this is where I had huge issues with Holland. He always gave UFA signings (internal or external) term AND money AND NMC/NTC. None of those bad contracts (BigE, Abby, DDK, Helm, Weiss, Nielsen) look as bad if the term was shorter, say 3 years or if the cap hit was smaller. He did not know how to negotiate with UFAs.

I'm pretty much OK with signing anyone for 2 years or less. Didn't mind the Vanek signing or Green. Flip/Nemeth, they're just fillers until the kids are ready, and make the games a little bit more watchable, especially if it means Abby plays on the 4th line.

 

[obey86]

Who said Yzerman wasn't trashed for this signing? I hate it and I called it out. Yzerman is not criticism proof but he is not going to get the same level as Holland at this stage because Yzerman hasn't been here and doing terrible contracts for like 8 seasons in a row. Is it a crummy pointless signing? Yes. Is is it a red flag to be concerned about, not without more of the same behavior to indicate a pattern. Holland had that pattern and he probably also would have signed 5 years, more $, and NMC.

Your last sentence is exactly why the Holland bashers are so ridiculous. You always have to exaggerate to make a point. No, Holland wouldn’t give a 5 year contract, with a higher cap hit, to a low tier free agent 35 year old coming off a 30 point season, no matter how much you hate him.

He wouldn’t give a 36 year Datsyuk a deal over 3 years but he totally would have given a 5 year deal to a 35 year old mediocre player. Ok.

 

[Gniwder]

Your last sentence is exactly why the Holland bashers are so ridiculous. You always have to exaggerate to make a point. No, Holland wouldn’t give a 5 year contract, with a higher cap hit, to a low tier free agent 35 year old coming off a 30 point season, no matter how much you hate him.

He wouldn’t give a 36 year Datsyuk a deal over 3 years but he totally would have given a 5 year deal to a 35 year old mediocre player. Ok.

You mean the same guy that signed 32 year old Nielsen to 6 year contract? Or the guy who signed back injury prone Helm to 5 years?

Overpaying mediocre talent is Holland's MO. Maybe not 5 years for a 35 year old, but no doubt in my mind he would have paid more than $3M because he likes to outbid himself, and the team had cap space.

Regardless of who's in charge, it's a meh deal that won't change the long term trajectory of the team.

 

[Ezekial]

Your last sentence is exactly why the Holland bashers are so ridiculous. You always have to exaggerate to make a point. No, Holland wouldn’t give a 5 year contract, with a higher cap hit, to a low tier free agent 35 year old coming off a 30 point season, no matter how much you hate him.

He wouldn’t give a 36 year Datsyuk a deal over 3 years but he totally would have given a 5 year deal to a 35 year old mediocre player. Ok.

I thought the line 8 years in a row comment was pretty telling they didn't consider the actual contracts KH signed after Nielsen.

https://i.ibb.co/RC8ZZm7/ba.png

Worst contract he signed after Nielsen was Daley at 3x3.166

 

[Ezekial]

You mean the same guy that signed 32 year old Nielsen to 6 year contract? Or the guy who signed back injury prone Helm to 5 years?

Overpaying mediocre talent is Holland's MO. Maybe not 5 years for a 35 year old, but no doubt in my mind he would have paid more than $3M because he likes to outbid himself, and the team had cap space.

Regardless of who's in charge, it's a meh deal that won't change the long term trajectory of the team.

Nielsen turned down more money to stay with the Isles to come to Detroit.

Comments by general manager Garth Snow have indicated that Kyle Okposo will not be back with the team next season, and the New York Post reports that Frans Nielsen has turned down a deal that was worth $5.5 million annually.

Islanders Rumors: Frans Nielsen Turns Down Contract