Post-Game Talk: Wings def. Canucks - 5-2 (Beauvillier, Pettersson)

[Petey But Really Jim]

Oh look, we are busting our asses as usual to find a way around this being just a group of losers. As if every core of players nurtured in a loser environment breaks free from that oppression to RISE. Just give it a couple more cracks. Yawn.

 

[Sedinery]

People think the convicted criminal coach hold players accountable

How was JT held accountable for his moronic penalty followed by a moronic unsportsmanlike?

Great accountability Rickey Betts

 

[Petey But Really Jim]

If we have Demko next year back in form and healthy all year and still don’t make the playoffs, despite not making them with Demko in God mode all 2021-2022:

But Bruce
But goaltending

will both be expired.

So next year maybe but Tocchet?

Ok.

So what’s 2024-2025’s built in but…?

 

[shottasasa]

I guess they can't take a new photo with Petey or Hughes?

Pretty lazy and unprofessional if you ask me.

No, they probably can’t just take a photo considering the trade happened during the all-star break and the team was on the road straight afterwards. It should also be pointed out that PR photos are way down the priority list for players in the middle of the season, especially for something like a warm up jersey. And that’s also not considering the time needed for post-production work to make a professional product. It won’t just be one photo either.

All this tells me you don’t have much knowledge about any of these topics or put much thought into your posts. Pretty lazy if you ask me.

 

[MS]

People claiming goaltending is the primary problem with the teams win/loss record are correct.

The people arguing against this are acting like people are saying its only goaltending. NO. this team has a ton of issues, just the clear biggest reason for losses is goaltending.

I mean, the goaltending is literally bottom 2 by every metric. The majority of stats sites have the team pegged at about -40 GSAE, and that's a pretty big deal for a team with a goal differential of -32.

If it's not the biggest problem or reason for underperformance, it has to be pretty f***ing close.

People are incredibly invested in this being the WORST TEAM EVER, WORST DEFENSIVE TEAM EVER, NO HOPE, HAVE TO TANK and really don't want to have a discussion about how much the shockingly terrible goaltending has played into the record.

Again, you have to go back 30 years to find a team that was statistically this much worse than league average goaltending.

 

[m9]

It's too simplistic to me to say that Martin has been awful all year. He was okay/bad the first 10+ games, then very bad for the next while, and now truly awful for the last 10+.

Just because he's awful now and the biggest reason the team is losing recently doesn't make it true that it was the same situation going on earlier this year. He has continuously devolved as the season has gone on to get to this point.

So yeah, he's the #1 reason now. But I think those re-writing history in an attempt to claim "goaltending" the whole way are off. The defense has been consistently bad.. it's just that Martin for the last while has been even worse than the defense.

 

[sting101]

People think the convicted criminal coach hold players accountable

How was JT held accountable for his moronic penalty followed by a moronic unsportsmanlike?

Great accountability Rickey Betts

i feel like this was 2 minutes after you posted this

 

[pitseleh]

The thing about the team’s goaltending is they only have the third worst SV% at even strength and aren’t far off from a half dozen other teams. The goalies have been bad but within a normal range.

It’s the penalty kill that’s driving the historically bad results: the team is running a .761 SV%, when the next worst team is at .813. I’ve never seen anything like this.
The gap between first and 29th in the league is almost as big as the gap between the Canucks and second worst.

I’d love to see an analysis of how much of that is bad PK by the skaters, bad goaltending during PKs, and just bad luck.

 

[m9]

The thing about the team’s goaltending is they only have the third worst SV% at even strength and aren’t far off from a half dozen other teams. The goalies have been bad but within a normal range.

It’s the penalty kill that’s driving the historically bad results: the team is running a .761 SV%, when the next worst team is at .813. I’ve never seen anything like this.
The gap between first and 29th in the league is almost as big as the gap between the Canucks and second worst.

I’d love to see an analysis of how much of that is bad PK by the skaters, bad goaltending during PKs, and just bad luck.

I wonder how much an analysis would even uncover. It seems to me like the skaters have been bad on the PK for the last two years but the goaltending has been the difference this year vs last. PK is 8% worse this year overall.

Teams have also killed them all season on cross-ice one-timers which you can probably blame on everyone.. but Martin sure seems to suck more than most at it.

 

[MS]

It's too simplistic to me to say that Martin has been awful all year. He was okay/bad the first 10+ games, then very bad for the next while, and now truly awful for the last 10+.

Just because he's awful now and the biggest reason the team is losing recently doesn't make it true that it was the same situation going on earlier this year. He has continuously devolved as the season has gone on to get to this point.

So yeah, he's the #1 reason now. But I think those re-writing history in an attempt to claim "goaltending" the whole way are off. The defense has been consistently bad.. it's just that Martin for the last while has been even worse than the defense.

Our goaltending has gone from really bad to generationally awful.

Martin's first 10 or so games he looked like an OK backup which was better than Demko struggling mightily. Since then it's tracked further and further downhill to the point where this guy's save % is in the .820s over his last 9 or 10 appearances.

 

[Josepho]

I wonder how much an analysis would even uncover. It seems to me like the skaters have been bad on the PK for the last two years but the goaltending has been the difference this year vs last. PK is 8% worse this year overall.

Teams have also killed them all season on cross-ice one-timers which you can probably blame on everyone.. but Martin sure seems to suck more than most at it.

I think in the case of Martin he has a lot of issues with overcommitting on one side and 2 of the 3 PPG from Detroit today showcased that pretty well. The other one was just a whiff on his part.

FWIW our GA - XGA on the PK is also awful. Team Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

 

[m9]

Our goaltending has gone from really bad to generationally awful.

Martin's first 10 or so games he looked like an OK backup which was better than Demko struggling mightily. Since then it's tracked further and further downhill to the point where this guy's save % is in the .820s over his last 9 or 10 appearances.

I don't disagree with how bad he has been the last 10-15 games. I just think people have a habit of using recent data to try to validate prior opinions and we're seeing that a bit here. Conversely, others are stubbornly sticking to their opinions even with new information and that is also wrong.

I just thought the defense was the bigger issue up until sometime in December. Now that's not the case, it's more on the goaltending. But I don't feel like I was wrong about what I watched early this year. In my opinion, it's an obvious difference in play from Martin.

I have also found it difficult to quantify the cross-ice goals this year. Are we just bad at defending them? Are our goalies just bad at defending them? Are we just being continuously outcoached and haven't adjusted our coverage? Is the whole league this bad at saving these kind of shots? We must have 30-40 cross-ice one-timer goals given up this year and there's no way our save percentage is higher than 60% on them.

 

[credulous]

the problem with the 'but goaltending'/"historically" bad narrative is that the canucks aren't even the worst team in the league at even strength. san jose have been significantly worse

the canucks can't defend the cross ice pass. particularly on the penalty kill. of course the canucks goaltending numbers are bad

 

[VanJack]

In terms of the cross-crease pass goals, I think we were spoiled by Demko's athleticism the past couple of years.

When he was fully healthy, there wasn't a better goalie in the league with lateral movement. He was literally lightning quick in moving across the goal to thwart back-door scoring chances. Of course maybe that's one of the reasons he broke down, because the Canucks give up so many quality chances down low. And moving laterally is physically one of the most difficult movements for a goaltender.

I notice that both Delia and Martin hesitate for just a milli-second and then just throw themselves across the crease--usually arriving far to late to stop a one-timer. When an NHL goalie is forced to move after the guy has actually fired a shot, chances are it's going in.

But Delia and Martin are what they are--minor league goaltenders. If the Canucks had a better defensive system, maybe they could shelter these two guys and survive to win some games. But of course the Canucks are a defensive catastrophe, so the goalies get hung out to dry.

 

[VanillaCoke]

But goaltending crowd already trying to change their stupid stance to but goaltending but other things too

lol some laughable takes the past year around here

 

[timw33]

Well, when you're getting an unprecedented run of horrendous goaltending performances in a year where you could have a shot at a generational Vancouver-born prospect (albeit a 6-10% shot), just take the hint and lean into it. We should expect some level of regression (the good type) back to the mean at the very least, and there should be several changes to personnel and structure/systems this offseason, so let's just embrace this rare opportunity, we are not a bottom 10 team if we were getting Demko-normal goaltending.

 

[Josepho]

literally no one has said that goaltending is the only issue with this team.

 

[sting101]

But "not goaltending" crowd trying to hold the stupid stance that goaltending is not a huge issue

lol some laughable flavours of Coke out there. Personally i prefer Rum and Coke

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

But goaltending crowd already trying to change their stupid stance to but goaltending but other things too

lol some laughable takes the past year around here

'But goaltending'...absolutely...Is it 'the' reason the team has a crap record this season.?....no, its not..Is it a primary one..?, it most certainly is...(along with other things like the PK)

Demko and Martin have been downright awful.

Obviously ,there's the crew here trying to push the 'but the defence' narrative..Our D is discombobulated, and ill conceived, but when you put a goaltender in that can actually 'make a save' when it counts..we've gone 7-3-1 ..which tells me our goaltending has outright sucked.

 

[racerjoe]

The team is NOT playing better. Losing record against what was an “easy stretch” in the schedule. We can’t even look good against the bad teams

People drink the koolaid about playing better

You sound like imac

Read his article on sportsnet.ca today….moral victories

If you keep mentioning moral victories I am sure you point will finally become clear...

No one is drinking cool aid. Again no one things the team is good. You are just hearing what you want to hear.

Having said that, beside a game the team does look better, its not like that should be a big deal we have been brutal.

 

[Diogenes92]

All this tells me you don’t have much knowledge about any of these topics or put much thought into your posts. Pretty lazy if you ask me.

They could've advertised the jersey/gear/logos without having Bo in the photo.

It's pretty simple to put something like that together (if you had any knowledge or experience in the subject).

Having Bo in the advertisement is embarrassing and lazy.

How many days has it been since the Bo trade? Plenty of time to put something different together without any roster players being involved.

It's hilarious how far people will go to defend this organization on such random topics.

Feelings seem to be getting hurt so bad. It's entertaining.

 

[orcatown]

Canucks had some long periods of dominance and might have even been the better team. But dreadful goaltending and too many penalties undid some good efforts. Tanks afoot as long as Martin-Delia gong show is still n town.

Good

DiGuiseppe - created many chances and mostly good on the PK. Player is looking like he should be re-signed. You wonder about the contract situation. Think they are at 47 at present and need room to go after free agents like Livingstone. Note, however, DiGuiseppe is a free agent and if the team doesn't think they can get him back and he keeps up this kind of play maybe Canucks could trade to a team looking for depth. (maybe mid to late rounder). Right now, he's looking like found money and does not appear to be flash in the pan. Probably can't always sustain this effort but right now showing he has the ability to a good fourth liner.

Miller - not perfect but solid again.

Beauvillier - working well on the line with Pettersson. Competes hard and has the speed to make something out of that compete level. Showed a good stick again. We'll see over time, but so far has been a good addition.

Hughes - controlled the play over sustained periods of the game. You wish he could shoot a little more effectively but he facilitated a ton in this game

Joshua - looks like a player breaking through to the next level. Is staying in the play much better and is getting chances. If he can tidy up his play around the net, goals will certainly come. Seems like he has used this season to adjust to NHL speed and tempo. Tocchet has a good effect on this player

Not Good

Martin - whatever Clark thought he could make out of this player, he seems now far too optimistic in his projection. Garrett might be as effective. Has lost any semblance of composure or confidence. However, if the Martin -Delia combo can get us into prime drafting position then maybe they deserve a statue outside the arena. Could be something comical showing them thrashing around together in the crease

Dries - tried and wasn't terrible. But he simply isn't good enough

Lazar - a do nothing player. Skates around but can do zero with the puck and is so-so defensively. A body to be thrown out. Amazing how many chances a first rounder gets

Others

Kuzmenko - some good shifts but still having trouble adjusting to the expectations of Tocchet. Not easy having to adapt to North American hockey let alone to two different coaches

Stillman - continued improvement reflected in his amount of game time. Beginning to make his trade look borderline acceptable. Skating looks far better then previously.

Boeser - had to ask yourself, through much of the game, whether he was playing. Too bad since there were a lot of scouts in the building.

Even though you hope otherwise, Canucks likely win the return match.

 

[shottasasa]

They could've advertised the jersey/gear/logos without having Bo in the photo.

It's pretty simple to put something like that together (if you had any knowledge or experience in the subject).

Having Bo in the advertisement is embarrassing and lazy.

How many days has it been since the Bo trade? Plenty of time to put something different together without any roster players being involved.

It's hilarious how far people will go to defend this organization on such random topics.

Feelings seem to be getting hurt so bad. It's entertaining.

Well done with trying to change the goalposts tho about the players being involved. You’re still wrong tho, making up new professional marketing material takes a bunch more time than you seem to think it does and I’m fairly sure they’re already busy enough.

My point (and this is for all readers), is that it is still worth trying to be fair in criticisms of the organisation to have meaningful or useful conversations.

Not everyone is emotionally involved with posts on an anonymous message board, but if putting out lazy hot takes and then trolling entertains you, have at it.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Regarding the goaltending ... no shit, the team is playing two journeyman goaltenders who had 38 games of NHL experience between them before this season, and who in their late 20s haven't been consistently good in the AHL. You can't do that. All a goaltending tandem in the NHL has to do to completely sink a team's season is let in one more goal than any of the best goaltenders in the league might, out of 30-40 shots from NHL shooters. It's a tiny margin and you can't play with it.

 

[Zippgunn]

The screen shot goal from Hronek? The two tic-tac-toe passing plays on the powerplay?

That's just off the top of my head. Nice argument, though.


Key word is "some". I never said "many". Understanding of English helps in these types of arguments.

..and I said that he made maybe 5 saves that were straightforward and without drama. The rest either resulted in mad scrambles at his feet or gigantic uncontrolled rebounds. Since the definition of a "key save" can mean a save that prevented a goal from going in I guess you are right because not every shot on goal went in. I still think Delia is 10 times the goalie Martin is.