Willy Part XVI - The Zurich Summit

[New Liskeard]

I've been pretty confused at Lewis Gross' stance for a while now

- Apparently William Nylander doesn't want to get traded, so Gross is asking for an amount that the Leafs are totally unwilling to do, which has increased, even just slightly, the odds of Nylander getting traded
- Apparently Gross is using the Draisaitl contract as the main comparable, despite every other comparable deeming Nylander's value to be in the 6.5M range, 2M less.
- Gross and Nylander have continued this hold out, despite the team showing more each game they can score at a high level without Nylander, there is a potential replacement for Nylander in his current spot, and Mike Babcock getting more dimissive of Nylander each post-game interview he's asked about him.

It's been a very very odd negotiation from the Nylander camp.

To add to your post, I mentioned this in another post. Whats just as surprising and disappointing is all signs point to the fact that he loves Toronto and his team mates, they seem to like him and has close relationships, They are all mostly young and have come up in the system together, They have a legit chance to win it all and Nylander plays with one of the best players in the world. With all of these things that Nylander has it is disappointing he cant find a fair deal.

 

[Cor]

so they can sign Nylander+Matthews+Marner in the same offseason? They'd be better off trading him

I mean, it’s not the ideal scenario. But that will happen before Nylander sits out the year

 

[inthe6ix]

Everyone keeps pointing at Gross for this mess, but I wouldn't be surprised if Willy's dad Michael had a very big say in everything that is going on as well.

Back in his day, he was known to be selfish and difficult to negotiate with.

Good read for those who haven't yet:

Big Read: What the Maple Leafs risked by drafting William Nylander - Sportsnet.ca

Check this out from back in 2007 too:

Oilers statement regarding Michael Nylander

 

[kb]

I mean, it’s not the ideal scenario. But that will happen before Nylander sits out the year

They can sign him for 7 years at $6.8 million on Dec 1st, but have a cap hit of less than $6.5 million from years 2 thru 7. And Nylander gets well over $2 million more than if he signed a 7 year, $6.5 million contract in the summer - providing the Leafs give him a huge signing bonus and pay him the league minimum salary this season.

Both sides win big time.

 

[Not My Tempo]

I doubt he's lost money because of this

I feel like the Leafs camp would have put something acceptable to them in the "general range" of Nylander’s comparables and told him to give them a call when he's ready to sign

Why budge if all the leverage is on your side in the first place?

I meant lost money as in lost wages. Even if he signed a deal saying he’ll get 6.5 mil for the first year, his actual salary will be less because he doesn’t get paid for the days he missed

 

[deletethis]

"Sorry William, we're going to increase our asking price an extra $1M per year AAV to make up for the $6.5M you would have made in 2018-19."

"But first we have to wait for Matthews, Marner and Kapanen to sign their contracts."

 

[Buds17]

IMO, it would take a lot for the team and player to not agree to something (likely a contract, smaller chance of a trade) by Dec. 1st. Just doesn't seem like it would be beneficial in the current NHL to not have things settled one way or another by then.

 

[Kiwi]

I meant lost money as in lost wages. Even if he signed a deal saying he’ll get 6.5 mil for the first year, his actual salary will be less because he doesn’t get paid for the days he missed

I believe there is a way the team can still give him the full amount in that first season

Something to do with signing bonuses, I haven't looked into it but I think it's been discussed in here before

 

[Daisy Jane]

Because most players are finished developing by that age. And he’s never really shown the offensive ability/puck skill at any other point in his career.

He likely is what he is, a good “shut down” 2nd pairing guy.

um. most defensemen do not finish developing at that age.
and who gives a poo if he's an offensive defensemen. we have A LOT OF THOSE.
having a defenseman who can "shock" be defensive is not a bad thing.

 

[Not My Tempo]

Lol well I just found out that even if he sits out the entire year he still doesn’t have arbitration rights next year, so yea I’m not sure what his game plan is.

 

[drewjenks]

If you give him a $13 million dollar contract for this season, that is the minimum he will get next season BY NOT SIGNING OR DOING ANYTHING. The Leafs HAVE TO offer him that by CBA rules or he is a UFA. And if he signs for less, 30 teams will be calling them out on it.

You are a smart guy. Just recognize this. Please.

Calling them out on it?

 

[biotk]

YES! Been saying this for a while.

The league might investigate....but they can't prove collusion.

So it would work out fine.

If his agent even joked about pulling that s*** he'd be black balled by every GM in the NHL.

The extension would be pre-negotiated (regardless of performance this year).

Collusion so subtle that the league wouldn't be find evidence for it, despite it being so obvious that every GM would know about it.​

 

[drewjenks]

Collusion so subtle that the league wouldn't be find evidence for it, despite it being so obvious that every GM would know about it.​

Great.

So we get called out. We get called out for things all the time.

 

[BayStreetBully]

I actually think the best possible outcome for the Leafs would be to bridge Nylander at HUGE money -- $12-13m, whatever takes them up to the cap on Dec 1 -- and then sign him for 8y at much a lower AAV next season. Willie gets paid what he would be missing out otherwise, Leafs get to keep the team together now and in the future. Everyone wins.

I wouldn’t do it out of principle. What the hell has Nylander ever done to deserve $13 million a year?

It’s Nylander’s responsibility for missing the start of this season, he shouldn’t get rewarded for that.

In fact, the longer he holds out should be his very punishment. You want more money? Sign now. You want less money? Sign later.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Lol and as the Leafs are off to a 6-1 start, there’s suddenly “leak” of a KHL team looking at Nylander. I’d say his agent might be starting to sweat lol. Not only is he not gonna get Willy the contract he said he would, but this holdout has made him lose considerable amount of money.

this reminds me of the Cody Franson situation when he was a Leaf.
this was the year Kadri had to sign his first deal out of ELC and the Leafs were bumping at the cap ceiling and we had enough money but it would be. one would have a "good" deal and someone would have a bridge, and it really came down to whomever signed first. we all thought it would be Franny who would take the good deal, an Kadri would bridge but Kadri took the deal.

and Franson sat out and skated with Ryerson and signed for a really bad deal without arb rights to boot. (he fired his agent soon after). but just horrid horrid advice. This - is what screams at me with Gross. Whatever he thought, (which was probably "take advantage of Dubas.) totally blew up in his face.

 

[Daisy Jane]

It is called trade your pending UFAs at the deadline if you can't re-sign them, and replace them with the Johnson's, Kapanen's, etc from your farm for the playoff push instead of this self rental nonsense. Look at the assets we lost last year with keeping JVR, Bozak and Komarov, and likely this year with Gardiner.

can you name off the top of your head how many teams traded their impending UFAs at the deadline who were expecting to make noise in the playoffs?
i get what you mean but you also can't strip off big pieces off a team that has plans to make some noise. now if you want to argue that it should have been done in the summer or christmas, and adjust - I'm with you there, but loping off a chunk of team before the playoffs i've never seen done before. maybe one - but not 2-3+ of a contending team.

and people will go yah but we lost in the first round. yah we did, and that's the gamble, and you can say we could have done that without them. but that's hindsight (and the risk).

 

[Daisy Jane]

I actually think the best possible outcome for the Leafs would be to bridge Nylander at HUGE money -- $12-13m, whatever takes them up to the cap on Dec 1 -- and then sign him for 8y at much a lower AAV next season. Willie gets paid what he would be missing out otherwise, Leafs get to keep the team together now and in the future. Everyone wins.

then you have to qualify him at 13 m silly.
or his numbers throughout the 8 years (sorry i read it) have to match the highest amount. that's a no go.

 

[BayStreetBully]

I would just let him sit until he signs for $6 million. No trade, no nothing. If he sits, same thing next year. No trade. $6 million or Russia.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I would just let him sit until he signs for $6 million. No trade, no nothing. If he sits, same thing next year. No trade. $6 million or Russia.

honestly, if we could get a player out of it, i'd trade Nylander.

I personally feel that way too many people here live in the past, and they don't want to do it because oh my god what if he becomes amazing. Okay. so he becomes amazing. good for him. We've got Amazing players on our team, and if we can get a player that can continue to help us win a cup, who fits in the same age bracket then I do not see the issue here. at all.

I like will, but i love my team, and this is a moving train. the Leafs can't really afford this crap to go on much longer and i'd rather benefit from moving Nylander than wait an wonder when he comes back. Because for all we know, he could easily decide to do a Peca and sit out the year (and play in europe).

 

[BayStreetBully]

honestly, if we could get a player out of it, i'd trade Nylander.

I personally feel that way too many people here live in the past, and they don't want to do it because oh my god what if he becomes amazing. Okay. so he becomes amazing. good for him. We've got Amazing players on our team, and if we can get a player that can continue to help us win a cup, who fits in the same age bracket then I do not see the issue here. at all.

I like will, but i love my team, and this is a moving train. the Leafs can't really afford this crap to go on much longer and i'd rather benefit from moving Nylander than wait an wonder when he comes back. Because for all we know, he could easily decide to do a Peca and sit out the year (and play in europe).

I’m more than happy to trade Nylander if a hockey deal came along that benefited us, whether he was under contract or not.

I am opposed to trading Nylander because we can’t come to terms with him. We have all the leverage at this point, and I would use it.

Perhaps he signs an offer sheet, but by that point he is his own worst enemy. If the number is too high, we don’t match, and he loses the privilege of being a Leaf. That’s punishment enough.

Maybe I’m old school, but I have no time for caving into demands of young players that haven’t paid their dues.

 

[pcruz]

Has anyone ever had their salary reduced after going through arbitration?
I don't mean the demands reduced, I mean, the arbitrator awarding the player less money than he was making the previous season.

If it hasn't happened before, then giving Nylander a large contract this winter and running the risk of him taking the team to arbitration would be the dumbest thing in the world.
Not to mention the qualifying offer would have to be....110% of the previous salary I believe.

If it were to happen, the NHLPA might actually fight against the lower salary contract as well.
Other teams would almost certainly file grievances alleging foul play.

 

[Voodoo Child]

Nylander will be traded if he's still sitting in a month.

 

[LaPlante94]

I don't think Nylander is dumb enough to sit an entire year. If his agent is that dumb though Nylander should fire him immediately.

 

[Menzinger]

um. most defensemen do not finish developing at that age.
and who gives a poo if he's an offensive defensemen. we have A LOT OF THOSE.
having a defenseman who can "shock" be defensive is not a bad thing.

Well I’d have to say looks like we’ll just have to disagree about the development curve, but most things I’ve read suggest D men like forwards tend to hit their primes in that post 22/23 age range, but tend to stay in them a bit longer than forwards.

And he does have qualities that are attractive (never said he was a bad player) I just don’t think he’s quite good enough to justify moving a player of Nylander’s caliber for.

 

[NightTrain1]

The only thing I keep thinking here is a failed attempt by lower level player agency SPM at making a big splash for player and themselves, but now sit due to stubbornness or stupidity.

Their other big contract player mentioned a couple times was RW Johnny Gaudreau. Who in almost an identical frickin situation held out until Oct10th before signing his 6 years x6.75 contract, which was cut one year from 7 with a lower price because Calgary didnt want to sign him higher than Monahan. In a 160 games he had 55goals and 143pts. Compared to our WillNy at 185 games-48goals and 135pts. Also major difference being that Gaudreau is a clear mile more important to Calgary than Nylander is to us. Even with adjusted inflation and CAP increase the maximum Willie should see is still not worth that imo. This is getting super silly.