Willy Part XVI - The Zurich Summit

[Ratboy]

If Im Nylander Im seriously looking at the current rumours and wondering how much merit might be to them. Then im gonna seriously look at what playing the next god knows how long in Carolina would look like. Then Im on a plane to Toronto that night.

There are rumours? Nylander for Pesce? What's the source. Is it Eklund?
(E4)

 

[Smif]

If he wants 8M he's untradeable, we're not the only team that only wants him for fair market value. Gross and the Nylander's have backed themselves into a corner with no way out.

Really makes me sick when I have to try and explain to my 7 and 9 year old boys why Nylander isn't on the team.

 

[hector morrison]

The only thing I keep thinking here is a failed attempt by lower level player agency SPM at making a big splash for player and themselves, but now sit due to stubbornness or stupidity.

Their other big contract player mentioned a couple times was RW Johnny Gaudreau. Who in almost an identical frickin situation held out until Oct10th before signing his 6 years x6.75 contract, which was cut one year from 7 with a lower price because Calgary didnt want to sign him higher than Monahan. In a 160 games he had 55goals and 143pts. Compared to our WillNy at 185 games-48goals and 135pts. Also major difference being that Gaudreau is a clear mile more important to Calgary than Nylander is to us. Even with adjusted inflation and CAP increase the maximum Willie should see is still not worth that imo. This is getting super silly.

If it wasn't for that Gaudreau situation and if I didn't know better,I would say Dubas low-balled him...as in less than 6 million ! None of this makes any sense when looking from Willys perspective!

 

[scooter87]

There's only one player in the league I want for Nylander and that's Parayko. We transform into the cup favourite immediately. But it's never going to happen. Just hardball him until he signs for 6M or thereabouts. Easy.

 

[Notsince67]

Educate me then.

What am I missing about him? Mezinger already said it - he's a standard shutdown 2nd pairing D-man. Take him out of that defense-first Carolina system and his partner Slavin and he'd be a fish out of water. He's essentially the Braun to the Vlasic or the Oduya to the Hjalmarrson. What special skills does he have that I'm missing here?

Puck mover, controlled zone exits. Exactly the transition guy we need. Better suited than Hamilton IMO

 

[Ratboy]

If he wants 8M he's untradeable, we're not the only team that only wants him for fair market value. Gross and the Nylander's have backed themselves into a corner with no way out.

Really makes me sick when I have to try and explain to my 7 and 9 year old boys why Nylander isn't on the team.

What do you say? Curious.


Also always trust the gut. I had a bad feeling about this weeks before the season and here we are.

Shit or get off the pot, Willy.

 

[NightTrain1]

If it wasn't for that Gaudreau situation and if I didn't know better,I would say Dubas low-balled him...as in less than 6 million ! None of this makes any sense when looking from Willys perspective!

Yeah maybe he did just that. I can't see Dubas being that stupid as to think it would be acceptable to lowball what was fairly recently the franchises turnaround player and a stellar talent in the making.

We all talk about the 8million rumour, perhaps that was the response from a Nylander camp that received an 8 year x5.5mill offer. Looking in that light I would be pretty pissed too.

However, like I said I dont think Dubas is that stupid and im also thinking SPM isnt that stupid and that the ACTUAL numbers here are much much closer but both sides are hardlined on it or the length, similar to Gaudreau.

 

[hector morrison]

Yeah maybe he did just that. I can't see Dubas being that stupid as to think it would be acceptable to lowball what was fairly recently the franchises turnaround player and a stellar talent in the making.

We all talk about the 8million rumour, perhaps that was the response from a Nylander camp that received an 8 year x5.5mill offer. Looking in that light I would be pretty pissed too.

However, like I said I dont think Dubas is that stupid and im also thinking SPM isnt that stupid and that the ACTUAL numbers here are much much closer but both sides are hardlined on it or the length, similar to Gaudreau.

If Kyle went to the Lou skool,we will likely never know what transpired. We all just want it resolved ! It just seems so ridiculous on the surface,that it makes me suspect there is more to it than money!

 

[Daisy Jane]

I’m more than happy to trade Nylander if a hockey deal came along that benefited us, whether he was under contract or not.

I am opposed to trading Nylander because we can’t come to terms with him. We have all the leverage at this point, and I would use it.

Perhaps he signs an offer sheet, but by that point he is his own worst enemy. If the number is too high, we don’t match, and he loses the privilege of being a Leaf. That’s punishment enough.

Maybe I’m old school, but I have no time for caving into demands of young players that haven’t paid their dues.

that's fair and i'm usually like that too. but this team has lofty goals this year.
if there is a hockey deal that benefits us then we trade him. the reason why it's come to pass is because we haven't come to terms with us that's not at the fault of the Leafs.

quite frankly to me. the Leafs will ultimately hurt. if he Peca's and doesn't sign we are without Nylander, we're without what Nylander can bring, and we have to do this all over again next year.

 

[DanM]

I’m more than happy to trade Nylander if a hockey deal came along that benefited us, whether he was under contract or not.

I am opposed to trading Nylander because we can’t come to terms with him. We have all the leverage at this point, and I would use it.

Perhaps he signs an offer sheet, but by that point he is his own worst enemy. If the number is too high, we don’t match, and he loses the privilege of being a Leaf. That’s punishment enough.

Maybe I’m old school, but I have no time for caving into demands of young players that haven’t paid their dues.

Great post ^

People can't seem to see this, let him sit, earn your money, earn your role/ice time, take your knocks.

Man this generation, young prima donnas

P.S. I am not that old, I just think people need to actually.... you know, earn shit.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Well I’d have to say looks like we’ll just have to disagree about the development curve, but most things I’ve read suggest D men like forwards tend to hit their primes in that post 22/23 age range, but tend to stay in them a bit longer than forwards.

And he does have qualities that are attractive (never said he was a bad player) I just don’t think he’s quite good enough to justify moving a player of Nylander’s caliber for.

why?
almost everyone in hockey says the same thing.
Forwards usually show a lot of progress earlier
Defensemen takes a lot of time (like you can't even judge a defenseman until 300+ NHL games)
and goalies take the longest

not to mention is individual, and some people need a better environment something a lot of people around here tend to ignore.

quite frankly. i think people get way too wrapped up in winning trades or what it will "look like." i've said all summer people love going "ehmehgerd, Hall v Larsson, Hall v. Larsson. that's so bad." Hall for Larsson was one thing, and Edmonton had other issues that Chiarelli didn't (and hasn't ) addressed. so yes. Hall for Larsson is bad, but if they had addressed the other issues, and not built a slower team is it really that bad? and before someone goes "yes because Hall won the Hart, or quality etc. let's stop and really think about it." Is Larsson that bad for Edmonton? if the answer is yes - Larsson is bad, then it was a bad trade. if it's no, but it's not the 'value' people want - then quite frankly, that's what it is.

I don't know what a Nylander-esque defenseman would be to the point someone would trade him
if someone gave a Pesce-esque + something else for Nylander to a team that has a lot of offense, but will still miss some of the qualities that Nylander brings but it strengthens the team in other areas - is that a bad thing? I personally feel people don't want Pesce because he's not a sexy high event defenseman that you see on 1v1 or doesn't have the potential to be a extremely solid, dependable, defensive defenseman who can skate (key) and help the team in other areas. We HAVE a lot of high event defenseman. what we don't have is a lot of stability units which Pesce could bring.

and so if the argument is we need to have SOMEONE AMAZING. name a name. there are a few teams i'm looking at who can not score at all and I don't know if they have young "they fit" defensemen. Cor and others mentioned Pesce is actually perfect because his contract is a long term one at a really low cap hit (considering) his advance stats are pretty stable, and he's comfortable working with more talented defensemen (Slavin) so if he can find chemistry with Rielly (YAY) if he he has to slot down but he's capable of long term defense first pairing - what exactly is the issue?

 

[Daisy Jane]

There's only one player in the league I want for Nylander and that's Parayko. We transform into the cup favourite immediately. But it's never going to happen. Just hardball him until he signs for 6M or thereabouts. Easy.

you never know.
Parayko would be nice too.

 

[Coatsy79]

Perhaps he's in Zurich to open a Swiss bank account for all his new monies

 

[CanadasTeam]

If he wants 8M he's untradeable, we're not the only team that only wants him for fair market value. Gross and the Nylander's have backed themselves into a corner with no way out.

Really makes me sick when I have to try and explain to my 7 and 9 year old boys why Nylander isn't on the team.

Agreed, with that cap hit it's almost like having a NTC without the actual clause, Willie protecting himself and don't want to be traded after he signs.

 

[eddieO]

why?
almost everyone in hockey says the same thing.
Forwards usually show a lot of progress earlier
Defensemen takes a lot of time (like you can't even judge a defenseman until 300+ NHL games)
and goalies take the longest

not to mention is individual, and some people need a better environment something a lot of people around here tend to ignore.

quite frankly. i think people get way too wrapped up in winning trades or what it will "look like." i've said all summer people love going "ehmehgerd, Hall v Larsson, Hall v. Larsson. that's so bad." Hall for Larsson was one thing, and Edmonton had other issues that Chiarelli didn't (and hasn't ) addressed. so yes. Hall for Larsson is bad, but if they had addressed the other issues, and not built a slower team is it really that bad? and before someone goes "yes because Hall won the Hart, or quality etc. let's stop and really think about it." Is Larsson that bad for Edmonton? if the answer is yes - Larsson is bad, then it was a bad trade. if it's no, but it's not the 'value' people want - then quite frankly, that's what it is.

I don't know what a Nylander-esque defenseman would be to the point someone would trade him
if someone gave a Pesce-esque + something else for Nylander to a team that has a lot of offense, but will still miss some of the qualities that Nylander brings but it strengthens the team in other areas - is that a bad thing? I personally feel people don't want Pesce because he's not a sexy high event defenseman that you see on 1v1 or doesn't have the potential to be a extremely solid, dependable, defensive defenseman who can skate (key) and help the team in other areas. We HAVE a lot of high event defenseman. what we don't have is a lot of stability units which Pesce could bring.

and so if the argument is we need to have SOMEONE AMAZING. name a name. there are a few teams i'm looking at who can not score at all and I don't know if they have young "they fit" defensemen. Cor and others mentioned Pesce is actually perfect because his contract is a long term one at a really low cap hit (considering) his advance stats are pretty stable, and he's comfortable working with more talented defensemen (Slavin) so if he can find chemistry with Rielly (YAY) if he he has to slot down but he's capable of long term defense first pairing - what exactly is the issue?

If the Leafs win the cup after trading for Pesce, nobody will think twice about what Nylander does. I agree with you, if the trade makes sense for your team, you do it. It’s not NHL on PS4, the “better” player could be the best for the team. And btw, a lot of people who think Pesce is a bad return for Nylander haven’t seen a lot of Pesce.

On another note, I’m impressed with Dubas. I honestly thought he might be taken for a ride. I’m sure Gross thought he could take advantage. Now it’s Gross and Nylander’s camp that looks bad.

 

[Daisy Jane]

If the Leafs win the cup after trading for Pesce, nobody will think twice about what Nylander does. I agree with you, if the trade makes sense for your team, you do it. It’s not NHL on PS4, the “better” player could be the best for the team. And btw, a lot of people who think Pesce is a bad return for Nylander haven’t seen a lot of Pesce.

On another note, I’m impressed with Dubas. I honestly thought he might be taken for a ride. I’m sure Gross thought he could take advantage. Now it’s Gross and Nylander’s camp that looks bad.

right?
Like right now people are still kvetching that we didn't get a buttload for Kessel.
ignoring the fact of the factors, and that other players of his ilk didn't get that much.
ignoring the fact that two key bits (Andersen (via 1st round pick) and Kapanen is paying off. but we didn't "WIN" or get more value.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

If the Leafs win the cup after trading for Pesce, nobody will think twice about what Nylander does. I agree with you, if the trade makes sense for your team, you do it. It’s not NHL on PS4, the “better” player could be the best for the team. And btw, a lot of people who think Pesce is a bad return for Nylander haven’t seen a lot of Pesce.

On another note, I’m impressed with Dubas. I honestly thought he might be taken for a ride. I’m sure Gross thought he could take advantage. Now it’s Gross and Nylander’s camp that looks bad.

Well it is Pridham leading the negotiations.

 

[taurine330]

Well it is Pridham leading the negotiations.

Source?

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

Source?

Dubas said it, that Pridham is the lead guy on negotiations.

 

[eddieO]

Dubas said it, that Pridham is the lead guy on negotiations.

Again, source?

 

[DanM]

Again, source?

He said it a few times on sportsnet interviews.

 

[Ciao]

If you give Nylander a 1 year 12 mil offer, you have to give him a 12 mil qualifying offer next season if he decides he doesn’t want to hold his end of the bargain up. No GM in the league would risk it

It would never happen, and especially not with this player.

The team would have to trust the player not to take advantage of the the situation. Aside from all else (issues of cap circumvention, business ethics and risk to the player) that level of trust would not be there. The Leafs simply could not trust Nylander not to screw them.

 

[Not My Tempo]

Again, source?

Not quite what he was saying but this was a tidbit from the Athletic interview a little while ago.

When you make the complexity of it — and this is something I’ve wondered about — how do you hit on the exact number that makes sense for the Leafs while projecting long-term? How do you decide X is good?

(Assistant GM) Brandon Pridham is in charge of all that for us. And he’s one of the best in the sport at that, because of his unique experience of being with the league and now being here for five years. You see his intelligence and his ability to build these things out and model them. We also have an excellent R&D department, led by Darryl Metcalf, and they’re able to work with Brandon, work together and model things out. We try to project everybody out — the players, the salary cap, what our team structure is going to be...)

I’m not gonna post the rest for obvious reasons but yea I think that’s what he might be referring to.

 

[eddieO]

Yeah it’s still Dubas I’m complimenting here. You know, the guy who took all the flak for when things were looking better for Gross? The GM of the Leafs? Until I see a quote specifically saying he’s not involved and Pridham is running all the talks, I stand by the fact that he’s done a decent job here not letting Gross take advantage.

 

[Zrinski]

That he's gonna hold out & we'll be forced to pay him more next year or walk ?

Ya OK....both contracts would be negotiated at once silly boy.

And the agents NHL career would be over if he broke his word.

It's illegal to agree to terms on a second contract before you've signed the first one. The Leafs would be required to qualify him for his previous salary + the minimum legal increase (around 10%? I can't remember that detail).

And in what imaginary world does the agent lose his career? Would he piss off the GM he was dealing with and potentially many others? Sure he would - I guess it's lucky for him then that GMs don't employ him, players do. If anything that'd be a major selling point for the agent. "I was supposed to get my client a deal for 12 and another for 5x5, instead I got him 12 and 8x7" or whatever money Nylander would get as a 23 year old UFA because the Leafs sure as hell wouldn't be able to keep him if it means 12+.

People brought this idea up with Tavares in the summer - there's a reason it didn't happen with him, and there are 20 reasons it won't happen with Nylander. There is so much more risk in doing that in this situation. Don't waste your time day dreaming about it.