Will Zetterberg Be A HHOF'er?

[maacoshark]

He was a very good 2way forward. Not sure he is HOF caliber. I would say he is borderline.

 

[MVP of West Hollywd]

This seems like a toss-up. He was never considered a dominant player and had half the hype of players like Toews, Modano or Sundin. The type of player where the SC and Conn Smythe may make the difference

 

[DitchMarner]

This seems like a toss-up. He was never considered a dominant player. The type of player where the SC and Conn Smythe may make the difference

What about Joe Nieuwendyk? Was he better? Would he be in without his Conn Smythe and Cups?

 

[Arselona]

Easily. Hhof commitee always inducts winners and Z won a lot.

 

[MVP of West Hollywd]

Given that they induct 3-4 people each year, at least 10 people from those 5 years have to go in, even if this period is relatively weak.
So who do we put in HHOF ahead of Zetterberg? Sedins, Datsyuk, Lundqvist, Miller, Keith. That's 6. Who else is clearly ahead of Zetterberg? Kovalchuk, Lecavalier, Ward, and Markov? Not that clear to me.

Are we really going to put Miller in HOF? I guess 18th all time in wins, a Vezina and generally strong GAA/SV% career may get him in but I feel like he's spent most of this decade being overrated.

 

[CascadiaPuck]

"Hall of very good"/ borderline people should show their work or perhaps stay silent. I've said it before: the HHOF inducts 3-4 NHLers each year. I grabbed notable names drafted +/- 5 years of Zetterberg (I may have missed a couple). I'm not saying all of these guys will be in the HHOF. And, of course, there will be older players (e.g. Jagr) and players like Hayley Wickenheiser that get admitted too. About 30+ NHL players drafted in those years (i.e. many of the names below) will likely make it in. Can you find that many people to put ahead of Zetterberg?

1994
- Daniel Alfredson
- Patrik Elias
- Tim Thomas

1995
- Jarome Iginla
- Shane Doan
- Jean-Sebastien Giguere
- Miikka Kiprusoff

1996
- Zdeno Chara

1997
- Joe Thornton
- Marian Hossa
- Patrick Marleau
- Roberto Luongo

1998
- Vincent Lecavalier
- Brad Richards
- Pavel Datsyuk

1999
- Henrik Sedin
- Daniel Sedin
- Henrik Zetterberg
- Ryan Miller

2000
- Marian Gaborik
- Henrik Lundqvist

2001
- Jason Spezza
- Ilya Kovalchuk

2002
- Rick Nash
- Duncan Keith

2003 draft
- Eric Staal
- Ryan Getzlaf
- Corey Perry
- Patrice Bergeron
- Marc-Andre Fleury
- Shea Weber

2004 draft
- Alex Ovechkin
- Evgeni Malkin
- Pekka Rinne

Sundin is in. Toews will get in. Therefore Z will get in. They are all borderline or less but were well respected by "hockey people".

I'm not even close to a Leafs fan, but Mats Sundin was in no way borderline. Come on.

 

[NoName]

PPG finishes among players who played at least 40 games:

Sundin:

10, 12, 13, 13, 17, 17, 18, 20, 23, 23, 23, 28, 29, 39, 49, 52, 88, 105

Zetterberg:

5, 5, 10, 13, 19, 21, 22, 24, 25, 31, 31, 61, 105, 120, 140

Scoring race finishes:

Sundin:

4, 7, 11, 12, 13, 15, 17, 20, 23, 25, 27, 28, 31, 35, 38, 40, 71, 273

Zetterberg:

6, 9, 15, 20, 25, 25, 25, 29, 30, 53, 88, 96, 103, 121, 127

Hart voting finishes:

Sundin:

8, 12, 16, 18, 18

Zetterberg:

10, 16, 20, 22, 23

All-Star voting finishes:

Sundin:

AS-2, AS-2, AS-5, AS-6, AS-7, AS-7

Zetterberg:

AS-2, AS-3, AS-4, AS-5, AS-7, AS-7, AS-8, AS-9, AS-9, AS-10

Selke voting finishes:

Sundin:

32, 37

Zetterberg:

3, 4, 7, 9, 9, 12, 14, 18, 32, 43

Awards:

Sundin:

Messier Leadership Award

Zetterberg:

Conn Smythe
King Clancy

Playoffs:

Sundin:

38 goals, 44 assists, 82 points, +2 in 91 games

Zetterberg:

57 goals, 63 assists, 120 points, +41 in 137 games

Number of times leading a team in scoring:

Sundin:

13

Zetterberg:

5


The argument can be made that Zetterberg had the better NHL career of the two, but Sundin's International career is decidedly better than Z's.


Olympics:

Sundin:

16 GP, 11 G, 9 A, 20 P, +5

Zetterberg:

17 GP, 5 G, 4 A, 9 P, +7

W-Cup:

Sundin:

8 GP, 5 G, 8 A, 13 P, +1

Zetterberg:

4 GP, 1 G, 1 A, 2 P, -7

WC-A

Sundin:

35 GP, 18 G, 26 A, 44 P, +10

Zetterberg:

52 GP, 11 G, 33 A, 44 P, +17

The elephant in the room you aren't mentioning is this:

Sundin
Games: 1346
Goals: 564
Assists: 785
Points: 1349
Points per game: 1.002

Zetterberg
Games: 1082
Goals: 337
Assists: 623
Points: 960
Points per game: 0.887

There really isn't a way to mask over the substantial discrepancy in the production stats of these two players you are comparing.

Sundin has the scoring stats of a typical Hall of Fame player, Zetterberg doesn't (he never even broke 100 points in a single season, has well under 1 ppg and didn't score 1000 points). Now Zetterberg will get their based on being a key guy for a team that had a ton of success and for (like Sundin) being quite successful on the world stage, but it is pretty inarguable that 1 for 1 Sundin way outperformed Zetterberg over their careers.

 

[GreatGonzo]

The elephant in the room you aren't mentioning is this:

Sundin
Games: 1346
Goals: 564
Assists: 785
Points: 1349
Points per game: 1.002

Zetterberg
Games: 1082
Goals: 337
Assists: 623
Points: 960
Points per game: 0.887

There really isn't a way to mask over the substantial discrepancy in the production stats of these two players you are comparing.

Sundin has the scoring stats of a typical Hall of Fame player, Zetterberg doesn't (he never even broke 100 points in a single season, has well under 1 ppg and didn't score 1000 points). Now Zetterberg will get their based on being a key guy for a team that had a ton of success and for (like Sundin) being quite successful on the world stage, but it is pretty inarguable that 1 for 1 Sundin way outperformed Zetterberg over their careers.

Zetterberg was a great player outside of his team success though. Sure it helped, but he was arguably more impactful and better than Datsyuk during his prime. He was by far one of the best two way players in the league for a few years, it’s unfortunate he doesn’t have much to show for it.

I agree though. His stats are sorely lacking. But his production is pretty good overall for the era he played in. He was consistent, just wasn’t consistent enough to reach those big milestones.

 

[GreatGonzo]

This seems like a toss-up. He was never considered a dominant player and had half the hype of players like Toews, Modano or Sundin. The type of player where the SC and Conn Smythe may make the difference

He was absolutely considered a dominant player for a couple of years on both ends of the ice. He just wasn’t putting up the huge numbers like Crosby/Ovi And wasn’t flashy like Datsyuk, but he was just as skilled and impactful.

Toews is mostly hype, but I wouldn’t call Sundin or Modano “hyped.” Sundin was one of the top centers for a majority of his career while being one of the best Swedes to ever play, while Modano was, if not the best scoring American born player ever. As well as being a two way stud. If anything Zetterberg is a notch below Modano, In terms of player to player.

 

[iamjs]

Zetterberg was drafted at round 7, with the 210th pick overall. Lets assume he will be elected to the HHOF, would that 210 be a record, or is there any players in the HHOF who have been picked later in the draft?

Makarov was elected this year, and was drafted at #231.

Prior to Makarov, Hasek (199th) held the record as the latest draft pick to go in.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Great player but he's not quite there. Had he breached 1,000 points and at LEAST 400 goals, that's when I'd start considering him.

If not for back injuries he likely breaks 1000 points this upcoming season. The whole "1000 points" marker is arbitrary. A measly 40 points is not the difference between him getting in or not.

 

[NoName]

Zetterberg was a great player outside of his team success though. Sure it helped, but he was arguably more impactful and better than Datsyuk during his prime. He was by far one of the best two way players in the league for a few years, it’s unfortunate he doesn’t have much to show for it.

I agree though. His stats are sorely lacking. But his production is pretty good overall for the era he played in. He was consistent, just wasn’t consistent enough to reach those big milestones.

Zetterberg was an elite player in the NHL for a long time, but this is the Hall of Fame, everyone even considered for candidacy is supposed to be elite; look at guys like Mogilny and Turgeon who aren't even in. Given Zetterberg being one of the two core guys on a team with a long track record of excellence, he will get in I have no argument about that, but it is hard to claim that he has the numbers to justify being in the Hall of Fame on those terms, particularly looking at the much more gaudy stats of some other guys on the outside looking in, and comparing his production to Sundin is frankly ridiculous; Mats Sundin unequivocally put up better numbers then Zetterberg. Sundin didn't have the Stanly Cup ring to help his case (although he did have that Olympic gold which shows he could win on a big stage), but his sheer individual numbers justify his place in the Hall of Fame in a way that Zetterberg's simply don't.

NOTE: Maybe I was a bit more enamored with Datsyuk; but when he and Zetterberg (and their generation of the Red Wings) were both at their peaks in the mid to late aughts, Datsyuk always seemed like "the guy" whereas Zetterberg was the second best player. Maybe it was Datsyuks elite 2-way game or insane stick-handling that are biasing me a bit, but he always seemed a on a level above Zetterberg in my eyes.

 

[NoName]

If Sundin is in...

Sundin is in. Toews will get in. Therefore Z will get in. They are all borderline or less but were well respected by "hockey people".

If Sundin's in, Zetterberg is in yesterday.

This seems like a toss-up. He was never considered a dominant player and had half the hype of players like Toews, Modano or Sundin. The type of player where the SC and Conn Smythe may make the difference

You and others are saying there is ABSOLUTELY no way he belongs. That’s just objectively wrong.

Lots of people forgetting about him being a member of the Triple Gold club.

Do you think Sundin belongs? Andreychuk absolutely deserves it but Hank absolutely does not? Cmon

Sundin's sheer production stats are in line with a Hall of Famer:
Games: 1346
Goals: 564
Assists: 785
Points: 1349
Points per game: 1.002


He is in because he unequivocally put up Hall of Fame numbers. He also had international success (Olympic Gold medal, 16 GP, 11 G, 9 A, 20 P, 3x WC gold medal 35 GP, 18 G, 26 A, 44 P). The only knock on him is the lack of a Stanley Cup... which can be made about a lot of Hall of Fame players.

It is continually mystifying why people just ignore Sundin's raw statistics when they compare his production numbers. He was simply scored a lot more points a lot more efficiently then Zetterberg or Toews or Andreychuk and it isn't particularly close.

This really shouldn't be all that controversial: Sundin is deservedly in the Hall of Fame because he flat-out put up Hall of Fame level production and had a fair amount of team success over his career.

Sometimes I wonder if Sundin had played for a team like say Minnesota his entire career if there would be so much "controversy" about him being in the Hall here on HFBoards, because there certainly wasn't among actual voters because Sundin got in on the first ballot.

 

[Gunnersaurus Rex]

First ballot HOF'er !!

 

[Aladyyn]

Sundin's sheer production stats are in line with a Hall of Famer:
Games: 1346
Goals: 564
Assists: 785
Points: 1349
Points per game: 1.002


He is in because he unequivocally put up Hall of Fame numbers. He also had international success (Olympic Gold medal, 16 GP, 11 G, 9 A, 20 P, 3x WC gold medal 35 GP, 18 G, 26 A, 44 P). The only knock on him is the lack of a Stanley Cup... which can be made about a lot of Hall of Fame players.

It is continually mystifying why people just ignore Sundin's raw statistics when they compare his production numbers. He was simply scored a lot more points a lot more efficiently then Zetterberg or Toews or Andreychuk and it isn't particularly close.

This really shouldn't be all that controversial: Sundin is deservedly in the Hall of Fame because he flat-out put up Hall of Fame level production and had a fair amount of team success over his career.

Sometimes I wonder if Sundin had played for a team like say Minnesota his entire career if there would be so much "controversy" about him being in the Hall here on HFBoards, because there certainly wasn't among actual voters because Sundin got in on the first ballot.

Then why are Roenick and Mogilny not in and Sundin is?

 

[thekernel]

They elect 4 players every year.

You do the math.

They will run out of worthy dead puck era guys within the first 2 years.

My favorite take ITT. But, it's kind of true though. Either they scale back how many people they vote in, or people are going to have to adjust their point total expectations for who makes it. To me the voters already know -- I think back to Brian Burke talking about if the Sedins make it with no cups, and he seemed bothered that he had to point out how much the league and game has changed in the past 30 years; how hard it is to win a cup, how hard it is to be so good for so long.

It's a shame Zetterberg didn't get to break 1,000 career points because that would likely make for a lot better visual argument from a stat sheet perspective. As it stands, two cups, Triple Gold Club, and a Conn Smythe is a hefty resume. But you can still see doubters. I think he'll make it in eventually. Not first ballot, but eventually. He's a warrior, a true leader, and a winner.

 

[DitchMarner]

Sundin's sheer production stats are in line with a Hall of Famer:
Games: 1346
Goals: 564
Assists: 785
Points: 1349
Points per game: 1.002


He is in because he unequivocally put up Hall of Fame numbers. He also had international success (Olympic Gold medal, 16 GP, 11 G, 9 A, 20 P, 3x WC gold medal 35 GP, 18 G, 26 A, 44 P). The only knock on him is the lack of a Stanley Cup... which can be made about a lot of Hall of Fame players.

This really shouldn't be all that controversial: Sundin is deservedly in the Hall of Fame because he flat-out put up Hall of Fame level production and had a fair amount of team success over his career.

Some others brought up Sundin and I presented some statistical information. I don't think Zetterberg's offense is as good, especially considering linemate and teammate support and Sundin's superior durability during his prime, but Zetterberg does have some elite PPG finishes among players that played at least 40 games in seasons.

Both Zetterberg and Sundin are better than HOF'ers Duff, Gillies, Glenn Anderson, Lanny McDonald, Gartner, Andreychuk, Federko, Ciccarelli, Mullen and Nieuwendyk.

 

[DitchMarner]

Then why are Roenick and Mogilny not in and Sundin is?

Do you really think either player was better than Sundin? JR will be inducted anyway.

 

[Aladyyn]

Do you really think either player was better than Sundin? JR. will be inducted anyway.

No but I think Zetterberg was better than him.

And Mogilny has a pretty similar resume to Sundin statistically if that's enough...

 

[DitchMarner]

No but I think Zetterberg was better than him.

And Mogilny has a pretty similar resume to Sundin statistically if that's enough...

Sundin has a better Hart voting record and better International career than Zetterberg. He's also better offensively.

Zetterberg has more hardware, more team success and a better Selke voting record.

They're close enough that I don't think it's clear who the better player is (I think a lot of Swedes would say Sundin is better), and I do think Zetterberg will be inducted, as I said in my OP. There are multiple HHOF'ers that both of these players are superior to anyway.

 

[NoName]

Then why are Roenick and Mogilny not in and Sundin is?

The correct question to ask: Why are these guys not in the Hall of Fame but Nieuwendyk is? Why is Andrewchyuk in? Why is Martin St. Louis in? Why is Dave Andreychuck in? Why is Brendan Shanahan, or Mike Modano in?

These are all contemporary players with less productive careers then Sundin who are in the Hall of Fame (and Roenick also was significantly less productive then Sundin). Now sheer numbers are not the only thing that determine HoF candidacy (and some of these guy have sparkling team success and other factors that justify their inclusion). Sundin's raw numbers and p/gp are in line with a Hall of Famer and he did rack up some major achievements in his career, that is why he was voted into the Hall of Fame. That Mogilny or Roenick (particularly Mogilny) got shafted by voters doesn't change that. Looking at raw stats, the same argument is much harder to make for the guys on the list above or Zetterberg or current players like Toews.



NOTE: The rumor I have heard for Roenick is that his "abrasive" personality may be a factor. It shouldn't be, but it is. The off-ice crap he got into in his career obviously also played a role.

 

[Bacon Artemi Bravo]

If not for back injuries he likely breaks 1000 points this upcoming season. The whole "1000 points" marker is arbitrary. A measly 40 points is not the difference between him getting in or not.

Yeah but I didn't say just 1000 points, I said AT LEAST 400 goals too. Honestly I feel like that total is even low.

 

[MVP of West Hollywd]

He was absolutely considered a dominant player for a couple of years on both ends of the ice. He just wasn’t putting up the huge numbers like Crosby/Ovi And wasn’t flashy like Datsyuk, but he was just as skilled and impactful.

Toews is mostly hype, but I wouldn’t call Sundin or Modano “hyped.” Sundin was one of the top centers for a majority of his career while being one of the best Swedes to ever play, while Modano was, if not the best scoring American born player ever. As well as being a two way stud. If anything Zetterberg is a notch below Modano, In terms of player to player.

They deserved it but just saying Sundin and Modano were bigger "stars" to me. Sundin as the franchise player of the Leafs and Modano as the best American player and also longtime franchise player of a successful champion team. Growing up it felt to me like they where on the short list of most famous players in the game. I just think Zetterberg was more overshadowed as the 3rd star on his team most of his best years behind Datsyuk and Lidstrom

I don't know if impacts their HHOF case at all though since it didn't help Alfredsson that much to be a franchise face of a Canadian team

 

[GreatGonzo]

They deserved it but just saying Sundin and Modano were bigger "stars" to me. Sundin as the franchise player of the Leafs and Modano as the best American player and also longtime franchise player of a successful champion team. Growing up it felt to me like they where on the short list of most famous players in the game. I just think Zetterberg was more overshadowed as the 3rd star on his team most of his best years behind Datsyuk and Lidstrom

I don't know if impacts their HHOF case at all though since it didn't help Alfredsson that much to be a franchise face of a Canadian team

This is true. He has a good reputation as a solid competitor and player, but he definitely took a back seat to Datsyuk and Lidstrom during the Wings best years. It definitely didn’t help his status as a top star for sure.

 

[Son of Petter]

Yes he will.