Will Zetterberg Be A HHOF'er?

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

If not for back injuries he likely breaks 1000 points this upcoming season. The whole "1000 points" marker is arbitrary. A measly 40 points is not the difference between him getting in or not.

If not for two lockouts he breaks 1000 points even with the back injuries.

 

[GreatGonzo]

The correct question to ask: Why are these guys not in the Hall of Fame but Nieuwendyk is? Why is Andrewchyuk in? Why is Martin St. Louis in? Why is Dave Andreychuck in? Why is Brendan Shanahan, or Mike Modano in?

These are all contemporary players with less productive careers then Sundin who are in the Hall of Fame (and Roenick also was significantly less productive then Sundin). Now sheer numbers are not the only thing that determine HoF candidacy (and some of these guy have sparkling team success and other factors that justify their inclusion). Sundin's raw numbers and p/gp are in line with a Hall of Famer and he did rack up some major achievements in his career, that is why he was voted into the Hall of Fame. That Mogilny or Roenick (particularly Mogilny) got shafted by voters doesn't change that. Looking at raw stats, the same argument is much harder to make for the guys on the list above or Zetterberg or current players like Toews.

NOTE: The rumor I have heard for Roenick is that his "abrasive" personality may be a factor. It shouldn't be, but it is. The off-ice crap he got into in his career obviously also played a role.

You really question why MSL is in the Hall? That should be a no brainer.

 

[bottomofthefoodchain]

He is in the triple gold club, so yes.
People keep thinking its called the NHL Hall of fame.

 

[Voight]

Not first ballet but eventually I think he will.

Helps that he played for an O6 franchise.

 

[VictoriaJetsFan]

Yeah, and he got the Smythe for it. That's kind of why we're having the discussion. Without it, he would have nothing as far as trophies/awards. One playoffs, or one series, or one shift doesn't make a HOF career.

One shift?

Are you serious?

He killed off a 5 on 3 that was a game changer in game 4 and in game 6 . I am sure he did similar over the years many many many times.

Not a Red Wings fan, but Zetterberg deserves far more credit than your giving him. Minimizing his contributions like that is kind of cheap.

 

[psycat]

should he? absolutely not.
will he? probably.

Never even had a top 5 finish for the Hart.

Her should have won the Hart in 07-08.
If Zetterberg was Canadian he would be seen as a Bergeron on steroids, which is also what he was.

Idk if that merits HHOF induction but if you gonna include middle tier players like Bergeron he should defenitely be in.

 

[NoName]

You really question why MSL is in the Hall? That should be a no brainer.

No, I just re-framed the question I was posed if someone is going to suggest that Sundin shouldn't be in the hall of fame due to his stats (with non- hall of famers Mogilny and Roenick put forth of examples) it is then fair to point out the large number of Sundin's (rough) contemporaries who got it with objectively less impressive stats, and St. Louis is part of that group. Now as I mentioned in that response, there are other reasons beyond just stats that justify the inclusion of many of the players on that list including MSL, but this should lay to rest the argument that Sundin doesn't objectively have the stats worthy to be in the Hall of Fame because X exceptional player who isn't in the hall of fame has comparable stats, because Sundin has makedly better stats then a lot of other Hall of Famers, including many from his own era.

I mean honestly, how many guys in NHL history have a 500+ goals, 1300+ points scored at a 1+ ppg pace and are not in the Hall of Fame? Turgeon is literally the only guy I can think of with similar numbers who isn't in The Hall, and that includes all the guys who played in the '80s when tons of people put up 100 point seasons.

 

[GreatGonzo]

No, I just re-framed the question I was posed if someone is going to suggest that Sundin shouldn't be in the hall of fame due to his stats (with non- hall of famers Mogilny and Roenick put forth of examples) it is then fair to point out the large number of Sundin's (rough) contemporaries who got it with objectively less impressive stats, and St. Louis is part of that group. Now as I mentioned in that response, there are other reasons beyond just stats that justify the inclusion of many of the players on that list including MSL, but this should lay to rest the argument that Sundin doesn't objectively have the stats worthy to be in the Hall of Fame because X exceptional player who isn't in the hall of fame has comparable stats, because Sundin has makedly better stats then a lot of other Hall of Famers, including many from his own era.

I mean honestly, how many guys in NHL history have a 500+ goals, 1300+ points scored at a 1+ ppg pace and are not in the Hall of Fame? Turgeon is literally the only guy I can think of with similar numbers who isn't in The Hall, and that includes all the guys who played in the '80s when tons of people put up 100 point seasons.

I see and totally agree. Sundin was a model of consistency, and mostly in a lower scoring era. I think people enjoy running his name through the mud in terms of his worthiness for the Hall because he didn’t “win anything” and didn’t have many big seasons. But he did better than that IMO, like you said, you can’t beat a guy that put up that kind of production. He should definitely be rewarded and praised for being able to play so well for such a long time. I think the one thing that separates him from Turgeon is the era they played in. Sundin was able to be a two time second team AS center while maintaining nearly a PPG for 15 years.

If anything Zetterberg from ‘06-‘13 was similar to Sundin....only worlds better defensively. He wasn’t always up there among the top producers, but he produced at a great level and maintained his defensive play for the most part, he just couldn’t maintain the same level of production. It’s a shame injuries hindered him so much.

 

[Sam Spade]

The standards have lowered for the Hall so yep he'll get in.

Does a player have to go in every season?

#halloftheverygood

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

I think he will eventually, deserves it. If you're a member of the triple gold club you for sure get consideration; some could argue about Modin and Samuelsson. But not just that, he has a Conn Smythe, 1,000 games, 100 playoff games, almost at 1,000 points but still good enough for me.

But call me crazy, but I think all members of the triple gold club should be inducted at some point. Only eight of them are retired and not in the NHL; the others will likely be inducted at some point or another.

 

[McVespa99]

Sundin was never borderline, he was going to be a HOFer.

Sorry but if he was not a Leaf he probably would not have gotten in.

 

[DitchMarner]

Her should have won the Hart in 07-08.
If Zetterberg was Canadian he would be seen as a Bergeron on steroids, which is also what he was.

Idk if that merits HHOF induction but if you gonna include middle tier players like Bergeron he should defenitely be in.

There was no beating Ovechkin for the Hart that season.

 

[DitchMarner]

Sorry but if he was not a Leaf he probably would not have gotten in.

He's the highest scoring Swede in NHL history and arguably Sweden's best player in International play all-time. Why wouldn't he have gotten in? Every other player who is a top 40 scorer in NHL history and is eligible is in except Pierre Turgeon (who I think will be inducted eventually).

 

[McVespa99]

He's the highest scoring Swede in NHL history and arguably Sweden's best player in International play all-time. Why wouldn't he have gotten in? Every other player who is a top 40 scorer in NHL history is in except Pierre Turgeon (who I think will be inducted eventually).

If he was the highest scoring German of all time should he be in? Sorry I just think Sundin was a very good but not hall of fame worthy player. Is a PPG player in a higher scoring period really a hall of famer?

 

[McVespa99]

It is just my opinion but I think a Hall of Famer should be or have done something special. What did Sundin or Z do that was special? A HOF player should have a couple scoring titles, or a couple Con S, or something.

 

[DitchMarner]

If he was the highest scoring German of all time should he be in? Sorry I just think Sundin was a very good but not hall of fame worthy player. Is a PPG player in a higher scoring period really a hall of famer?

If he was the highest scoring German player with more than 1300 points and his International resume, he would absolutely be in.

He played throughout the dead puck era and then after the 2004 lockout, which weren't high-scoring eras compared to the 1980s. Gartner and Andreychuk played the majority of their primes in high-scoring eras and made it in. Andreychuk was well below a PPG for his career, with no International resume. Dino Ciccarelli also played his prime years in a high-scoring era and made it; he was under a PPG for his career and won no awards or Cups.

If you score enough points, you're almost always inducted.

 

[DitchMarner]

It is just my opinion but I think a Hall of Famer should be or have done something special. What did Sundin or Z do that was special? A HOF player should have a couple scoring titles, or a couple Con S, or something.

Well, that's your personal criteria; it's not what the HHOF uses or has used.

Also, Z won the Conn Smythe, which is one of the most important awards.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Sorry but if he was not a Leaf he probably would not have gotten in.

That doesn’t make any sense.

 

[McVespa99]

That doesn’t make any sense.

It makes perfect sense.

 

[GreatGonzo]

It is just my opinion but I think a Hall of Famer should be or have done something special. What did Sundin or Z do that was special? A HOF player should have a couple scoring titles, or a couple Con S, or something.

You talk like every HOFer has won a scoring title or Smythe.....I mean only 3 players won scoring titles from ‘91-‘01, a majority of Sundins prime. While Sundin wasn’t exactly an offensive powerhouse, he was consistent through two decades and three different scoring eras. Does consistency not count? Is being 3rd in points, 5th in goals, and 10th in assists overall during the DPE, while being 1st in goals, 2nd in points, 3rd in PPG(500 games played), and 7th in assists among ALL centers, which including guys like Sakic, Forsberg, Modano, and Oates.....not special enough?

He’s 23rd all time in goals and 28th all time in points at a PPG. That’s incredible. Your entitled to your opinion, but at the same time your going to have to face the fact that your standards aren’t exactly bulletproof.

 

[GreatGonzo]

It makes perfect sense.

How did being a Leaf propel his HOF chances into the voters liking, rather than his stats and international resume?

 

[SantosHalper]

Yes, Captain Z is bonafide hall of famer. Stanley Cup 2008 and Conn Smythe, is already enough to choose him. And if he would have played this season, he would scored remaining 40 points to get to the 1000 points.

 

[Neutrinos]

I see Zetterberg on the same tier as Alfredsson and Elias

 

[NoName]

Sorry but if he was not a Leaf he probably would not have gotten in.

You quote me noting Sundin's stats and yet don't comment. Then you just say he only got in "because he was a Leaf".

To reiterate:

Games: 1346
Goals: 564
Assists: 785
Points: 1349
Points per game: 1.002

How many point-per game players with 1300+ points are not in the Hall of Fame? In all NHL history? I actually looked it up, it is precisely one: Pierre Turgeon. These simply are "automatic Hall of Famer" stats.

Sundin is 28th in all NHL history for total points... and all the eligible players from 1-31 are already in the Hall of Fame (#33 is, you guessed it, Pierre Turgeon) and of the top 50 list only 5 who are eligible are not in the Hall: Turgeon (#32), Roenick (#43), Nicholls (#45), Damphousse (#46) and Brind'Amour (#48).

And Sundin's place on that list isn't just due to extreme longevity offsetting a sub-par per game scoring pace (eg. like say Alex Develcchio), if you rank the Top 50 list by points per game played Sundin is right there at the same place at #28 (a few thousands of a % behind Selanne and ahead of Jean Rattelle).

You can look at the list yourself if you want: List of NHL statistical leaders - Wikipedia

To be blunt, the numbers say Sundin is easily a Hall of Fame player regardless of which team he played for. That is why he is in the Hall of Fame, and why this "controversy" seems to be within a certain sub-set of posters here on HFBoards rather then the HoF voters themselves (who elected Sundin on the first ballot). I get that some hockey fans greatly dislike the Leafs franchise; they have half a century of post-season failure and yet still have an enormous fan base (and consequently the biggest media presence in Canada) which can seem like it crowds out other teams, but you should be cautious not to let any personal bias colour your opinion of a player's career.

If he was the highest scoring German of all time should he be in?

Yes, except unlike Germany, Sweden has multiple gold-medal winning national teams (including during the best-on-best era) and a history of elite NHL players going back decades... you know guys like Lidstrom, Salming, Forsberg and current players like Karlsson and Backstrom. You know, your average 3rd pair/bottom-6 scrubs

Is a PPG player in a higher scoring period really a hall of famer?

That is a good question. Why don't you ask it of all those guys from the 80s in the Hall of Fame who got in... with lesser numbers then Sundin (eg. Ciccarelli, Andreychuck, Robitaille), playing in an era where it was much easier to get points then Sundin's era (90s to early 2010s).

If you want to make the argument that Sundin's numbers are not worthy of a Hall of Famer, you have to deal with the fact that there are dozens of players out there who are in the Hall with worse numbers. Simply put your argument doesn't hold up.

 

[Dotter]

He was a superstar in the league with Olympic gold, Captain of his Olympic team, a cup winner, a Conn Smythe, O6 team captain and one of the best post season reputations in the league. He wasnt just "above average".

And its not like the standard for the hall is very high. Lots of people complain all the time how low the standard is, but the hall has its standard for players, it doesnt care what other people persoally think the standard should be. Zetterberg definitely has a resume that puts him very borderline. I wont say hes a lock, but the fact that you seem so sure he shouldnt get in means youre underrating him

^This

HHOF = Hockey. Not just NHL. The triple gold seals it for me.