Will habs ever be successful if they keep Price/Weber?

[Miller Time]

I don't think that would be fixed but for the sake of discussion. MB gone, your top pick is in. What should he do? Who should he go after?

personally, i think the circumstance is ripe for a "re-tool"... use the upcoming season to drive for more top-60 picks by signing a few (1-3) mid-level vets looking for a reclamation year & give them every opportunity to "shine" enough to be worth decent picks as the deadline approaches.

2018-19 season becomes all about evaluating the young talent we have, Julien implementing the culture/defensive-commitment mindset he built in Boston (for all his shortcomings, hard to dismiss how well several young players evolved and became high quality end-to-end hockey players in beantown), and shipping out as many non-core assets as possible for picks/prospects.

should leave us with another bottom 10 finish (or, worst case, young guys push us into PO's despite vets being shipped out, so we don't pick quite as high, but still have a boat load of top-60 picks)

Julien either thrives (evidenced by the compete level and buy-in of the group, especially young players), or sets the stage for Ducharme to take over in 2019...

2019-20 becomes the target year to focus on getting back to playoffs... we hit the 2019 offseason with some money to spend (given all the vets shipped out by then... Shaw/Alzner/Benn/Schlemko/Byron/

Galch or Scherbak are still here, the other likely moved since Zadina seems like a shoo-in to earn a top-6 W spot by then.

Price/Weber are either kept for their leadership and stability in key areas, or traded next year for a premium assuming they have re-emerged as elite and there is a buyer willing to pay a premium (return available, provided they are being the leaders they are paid to be through another transition year, dictates wether they are kept for the return to competitive focus or not).

I'd also push hard to get RNH from the Oilers (for patches?)... I feel like he would be a great piece to add to our top-6 that is realistically available and who has both the floor and ceiling that we need at top-6 C. Worst case, he's a solid #2C that can play well at both ends, best case, he blossoms in his 25-30 years into a quality #1 (the guy has the tools, and given how/when he came into the league + his physical make-up, I really think he's a player that will hit another gear as the years of pro level conditioning catch his slighter frame up to full "man-strength". He has an incredible work ethic and hockey iq, that he was able to be the player he was in his first few seasons, despite having a teenage boy's physique, flies under the radar).

By 2019, we'd be left with a decent skeleton that, with either a few young players arriving fast or a few strategic signings/trades, would give us a solid playoff team with the youth and cap room to grow into a contender by 2020-2021

Drouin - ? - Zadina
Lekhonen - RNH - Galch/Scherbak
Hudon - Danault - Gallagher
DLo - JDR - Rychel (or whaterver 4th line players make the cut by then)

Mete - Weber?
? - Petry
? - Juulsen

Price?/Lingren

our 4x 2nds, Poehling, Ikonen, Vejdemo, Evans, plus our (multiple?) 1st & 2nd 2019 picks providing additional young assets either that grow into those ? gaps or that are used tactically to acquire 1-2 key pieces.

The elusive "#1C" role gets filled by either RNH (either directly, or as a 1A/B situation with Poehling or one of the other young players evolving better than expected) or by a 2019 or 2020 UFA signing or trade

 

[Habaneros]

Price at 36 and Weber 38? No, not even close to a comparison.

the Jets best enjoy this run...I mean Blake Wheeler is UFA next year ....Stastney is UFA end of this year..Hellebuck needs a brand new deal end of this season..he wins the cup or regardless, goona be a major pay raise over the 2.25 million he is making now....Jacob Trouba needs a new deal end of this season..so does some other RFA...

Jets window is not real wide,cap goona catch up with them.......IMHO

 

[WeThreeKings]

the Jets best enjoy this run...I mean Blake Wheeler is UFA next year ....Stastney is UFA end of this year..Hellebuck needs a brand new deal end of this season..he wins the cup or regardless, goona be a major pay raise over the 2.25 million he is making now....Jacob Trouba needs a new deal end of this season..so does some other RFA...

Jets window is not real wide,cap goona catch up with them.......IMHO

They will have to make some tough decisions, but they can move players like Enstrom or Myers and get back young players to fill the void. Connor and Roslovic still on rookie deals, they do a tremendous job of drafting and development. As long as they manage it well, they will be fine.

 

[Burke the Legend]

The good news is that both Price and Weber have a style that should age well. Neither relies so much on athleticism. Obviously a lot can go wrong with any player, but the normal ageing issues of a loss of speed/athleticism creating a steep decline shouldn't be such a worry.

Now for getting rid of them. The first problem is there's not much talent out there to easily replace them. What's out there would be either flawed, or very expensive, or both. Even if a really great premium trade could be arranged in a sale, a trade for a replacement will be just as expensive, or you're signing a UFA to big term, or you just go bargain hunting and forget a #1 goalie + D for now, and just try and find a new one by drafting.

If you're advocating the last option, then you're advocating a Buffalo style teardown, deep dive into the basement, 5-10 years at bottom 5. It's a possibility but I just don't think ownership & management is going to go for that.

 

[Laurentide]

I never said Weber or Price are the problem in terms of talent or impact. I'm saying the window is closing with no reinforcements. Why are we holding onto them?

Let's fire MB, perfect. Now ask yourself, what should next GM do? Should he hope for a miracle C to appear? Should he rebuild?

The real problem, of course, is that there is a huge disconnect between the Habs front office and a little thing I like to call "reality".

The reality is simple: the Habs need to rebuild; not just a little bit, but a full tear-down job. This is apparent to everyone except the people who's job it would be to actually do that. Those people have no interest in undertaking such measures because a rebuild of that magnitude takes a relatively long time. Years, in fact. But people like Bergevin don't have years; they've got perhaps 6 months and if things aren't looking up by then they know that they're going to walk the plank. So there is no incentive for anyone in a position of power to do anything except try to patch things up and hope for a fluke playoff run. Hope is not a plan unless you're going into year 7 of your 5 year plan and you're on a short leash like Bergevin. He's in panic, crisis management mode now. He's not going to rebuild. He's going to try and stay employed. He can't do both.

And when he is inevitably fired, his replacement will be under the same mandate to win now, so he's not going to undertake a protracted rebuild either.

They may as well remove the "To you from failing hands we throw the torch..." stuff from the dressing room walls and just replace it with "Rinse and repeat" because that's all that's ever going to happen. You've got a team run by a manager who's probably only got the job because he speaks French doing his utmost to try and keep it and his boss is an owner who's addicted to short-term profits. That's not a recipe for developing a long-term management strategy.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

That's wishful thinking. The get out of jail free card is because of changes to the player's share of HRR.

I doubt the players go even more under this time, I don't see a big change.

The battle will be for guaranteed contracts.

 

[Beer and Chips]

They haven't addressed a 1C in 25 years.

Next year's draft could be the best window to draft a #1 C.

 

[Kriss E]

personally, i think the circumstance is ripe for a "re-tool"... use the upcoming season to drive for more top-60 picks by signing a few (1-3) mid-level vets looking for a reclamation year & give them every opportunity to "shine" enough to be worth decent picks as the deadline approaches.

Gonna have to disagree here. Habs will need a few years to rebuild, they can't retool, they need big changes so we aren't talking about a retool here.

2018-19 season becomes all about evaluating the young talent we have, Julien implementing the culture/defensive-commitment mindset he built in Boston (for all his shortcomings, hard to dismiss how well several young players evolved and became high quality end-to-end hockey players in beantown), and shipping out as many non-core assets as possible for picks/prospects.

should leave us with another bottom 10 finish (or, worst case, young guys push us into PO's despite vets being shipped out, so we don't pick quite as high, but still have a boat load of top-60 picks)

Julien either thrives (evidenced by the compete level and buy-in of the group, especially young players), or sets the stage for Ducharme to take over in 2019...

Can agree here. Habs need to focus on getting prospects and finish in the bottom again.

2019-20 becomes the target year to focus on getting back to playoffs... we hit the 2019 offseason with some money to spend (given all the vets shipped out by then... Shaw/Alzner/Benn/Schlemko/Byron/

Galch or Scherbak are still here, the other likely moved since Zadina seems like a shoo-in to earn a top-6 W spot by then.

Price/Weber are either kept for their leadership and stability in key areas, or traded next year for a premium assuming they have re-emerged as elite and there is a buyer willing to pay a premium (return available, provided they are being the leaders they are paid to be through another transition year, dictates wether they are kept for the return to competitive focus or not).

I think there is a massive difference in direction taken if you keep Price-Weber or trade them.
Personally, I think Habs should look to move those guys asap. I don't believe the opinion around these boards that we would find no takers for Price right now. NHL is a league based on reputation. Price, despite his recent struggles, is still talked about as a premiere goalie. If he became available, I have no doubt in my mind the Flyers would dish out a lot to get him.

Get rid of those guys, don't commit to any big UFAs unless there are some young solid ones available depending on how our prospects are coming along.

I'd also push hard to get RNH from the Oilers (for patches?)... I feel like he would be a great piece to add to our top-6 that is realistically available and who has both the floor and ceiling that we need at top-6 C. Worst case, he's a solid #2C that can play well at both ends, best case, he blossoms in his 25-30 years into a quality #1 (the guy has the tools, and given how/when he came into the league + his physical make-up, I really think he's a player that will hit another gear as the years of pro level conditioning catch his slighter frame up to full "man-strength". He has an incredible work ethic and hockey iq, that he was able to be the player he was in his first few seasons, despite having a teenage boy's physique, flies under the radar).

Disagree with RNH. I want no part of him. If we trade Patches, we should look to bring in solid prospects and picks, of youngsters with very high upside.
I don't think RNH is going to hit another stride. He's been in the league for 6 years..It's like Galchenyuk, he isn't going to now become a beast. That ship has sailed.
Even if RNH did have that possibility, I see no reason why the Oilers would trade him for Patches, who's a year away from UFA. We would have to package in a Dman, when we are already extremely weak.
We are just not good trading partners with the Oilers unless we are talking about sending them Price or Weber, and if we're going to do that, better to just tank and get prospects/picks in return.

By 2019, we'd be left with a decent skeleton that, with either a few young players arriving fast or a few strategic signings/trades, would give us a solid playoff team with the youth and cap room to grow into a contender by 2020-2021

Drouin - ? - Zadina
Lekhonen - RNH - Galch/Scherbak
Hudon - Danault - Gallagher
DLo - JDR - Rychel (or whaterver 4th line players make the cut by then)

Mete - Weber?
? - Petry
? - Juulsen

Price?/Lingren

Honestly, I don't think this is a decent skeleton. It's very weak with tons of holes. It can be pretty decent if everyone plays up to par, which never happens.

our 4x 2nds, Poehling, Ikonen, Vejdemo, Evans, plus our (multiple?) 1st & 2nd 2019 picks providing additional young assets either that grow into those ? gaps or that are used tactically to acquire 1-2 key pieces.

The elusive "#1C" role gets filled by either RNH (either directly, or as a 1A/B situation with Poehling or one of the other young players evolving better than expected) or by a 2019 or 2020 UFA signing or trade

I think that would be a terrible team. I mean, sure, if all the kids play awesome and develop into solid players, then we could be decent, but given how things have went over the past few years, I have no reason to believe that.

 

[jackeymoon]

Why are people putting so much effort into this?
They WONT be successful with Price and Weber still here nor will they have success if they trade them because the owner is a cheapskate who values ethnicity over competence at the GM and Coaching position. "But Julien is good!" He hasn't coached well in 3 years but yea sure, he's great because he had Tim Thomas carry his team to the promise land...

Best of all? Marc Bergevin still legitimately believes that Drouin can be an elite C in the NHL....

 

[Milhouse40]

Do you think it's fair Stamkos would get more endorsement money in Canada than USA that wouldn't count against the cap?

One of Toronto's pitches was having the Canadian tire CEO there. it's that much money. Will that count on the cap too?

Yeah sure....Canada has much more business than the US (NOT)
Not to mentions that those endorsment are worth 25% less than in the states because it's in Canadians money.

Having said that, i don't think players are choosing the team they are going to live and play in because of endorsment. It helps, but it's like top try to include weather and cost of living into the Cap Space.

Like somebody else told you...the league, teams and owners don't like guaranteed contracts. It hurts the teams, owners and the products on the ice. Like i said, they're will be many battle and there's a lot of things that will change.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Yeah sure....Canada has much more business than the US (NOT)
Not to mentions that those endorsment are worth 25% less than in the states because it's in Canadians money.

Having said that, i don't think players are choosing the team they are going to live and play in because of endorsment. It helps, but it's like top try to include weather and cost of living into the Cap Space.

Like somebody else told you...the league, teams and owners don't like guaranteed contracts. It hurts the teams, owners and the products on the ice. Like i said, they're will be many battle and there's a lot of things that will change.

You’re one who argued it’s unfair because of taxes. I’m saying guys make money back in other ways anyway. More business in states but hockey is more recognizable here. I don’t think a Nike ad with Crosby has same impact in Phoenix as it does in Toronto, do you?

Also big market teams like us can afford better facilities, pay more for staff, etc.

Do you think Arizona can afford babcock’s Contract? And yet...we should get an advantage because we have to pay a million more.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

I'm more worried about Price than Weber. Defencemen like Weber age well, not going to let a flukey broken foot from a shotblock change that. Price seems to be breaking down though, that contract scares the shit out of me...

 

[LaFloater]

I would argue that both are vastly overrated. Weber is a solid defenseman but needs to be on stacked team. He will never be a leader or enough of a presence to get this team singlehandedly to a cup, that's not his role and never will be. He needs someone else to compliment him on D. Ironically I think him and Subban would have been an incredible tandem on the blue line. As for Price, last season was scary because he looked mediocre at best. In comparison to previous seasons where he has stood on his head with a terrible team, he looked as bad as some of the driftwood out there. In addition Price has always had a lot of hype and aura as the next greatest goalie ever but so far has not shown enough to deserve it. He has not won a cup and he has not carried this team or stolen a series in the playoffs when the pressure is on like Roy. Price can be a part of a cup winning team but theres a snowflakes chance in hell of MB ever having the brains to assemble such a squad. So I suppose in the end the answer to the question originally being asked is a definite NO to both of these players if MB is here and a possibly if MB was canned.

 

[David Suzuki]

I'm more worried about Price than Weber. Defencemen like Weber age well, not going to let a flukey broken foot from a shotblock change that. Price seems to be breaking down though, that contract scares the **** out of me...

I don't think you go from a vezina candidate to trash in one year. It's obvious something else was forcing Price to be off this year. I think he will be fine. The question is how "fine" is "fine" going to be. I don't know if he will ever be at his 2014-2017 level again.

Although I don't know if prime Hasek could have been good behind the defense he had.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

I don't think you go from a vezina candidate to trash in one year. It's obvious something else was forcing Price to be off this year. I think he will be fine. The question is how "fine" is "fine" going to be. I don't know if he will ever be at his 2014-2017 level again.

Although I don't know if prime Hasek could have been good behind the defense he had.

The thing is both Niemi and Lindgren were better than him, so I'm not just going to blame the defence. The guy was terrible. Not sure if it's mental or physical, but he needs to get it sorted out ASAP.

 

[habsfan909]

Next year's draft could be the best window to draft a #1 C.

Ya well we can pretend like we're getting Tavares for a little longer and then we can move on if we don't. And it's obviously not likely that he comes here. Without him, we'll be back on track for another top pick next season.

 

[nhlfan9191]

I'm more worried about Price than Weber. Defencemen like Weber age well, not going to let a flukey broken foot from a shotblock change that. Price seems to be breaking down though, that contract scares the **** out of me...

The broken foot isn’t what fans should be worried about with Weber. It’s the damaged tendons they found from excessive wear that required surgery that should scare the crap out of people. That type of an injury can slow players down a lot, and even if Weber was never the fastest, it can still severely effect his ability to keep up with the play. Not to mention surgery isn’t a permanent fix because of the nature of that injury. It can be a reoccurring theme.

 

[Laurentide]

I don't think you go from a vezina candidate to trash in one year. It's obvious something else was forcing Price to be off this year. I think he will be fine. The question is how "fine" is "fine" going to be. I don't know if he will ever be at his 2014-2017 level again.

Although I don't know if prime Hasek could have been good behind the defense he had.

You go from Vezina candidate to trash if your knee turns to jello. That could be a thing and if it is then the Habs just wasted a ton of money buying damaged goods.

I don't worry about Price reverting to form provided that whatever was ailing him this past season is not related to a chronic and career-limiting injury. But given the degree of transparency with this team who knows? To steal a line from Bergevin and turn it on its head, you can have all the attitude in the world but if you physically are unable to do the things you used to be able to do because of a chronic injury, then it's all for nothing.

This is my only worry with Price. Not the psychological stuff or even the technical stuff. He can overcome any and all of that. But if his knee is shot then we are screwed. Same goes for Weber. If his foot heals up properly then I'm not worried. But if it's going to become a chronic condition that forces him to play less effectively, then that's a huge problem. And I don't trust this team enough to take their word for it regarding any injury status report.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

The broken foot isn’t what fans should be worried about with Weber. It’s the damaged tendons they found from excessive wear that required surgery that should scare the crap out of people. That type of an injury can slow players down a lot, and even if Weber was never the fastest, it can still severely effect his ability to keep up with the play. Not to mention surgery isn’t a permanent fix because of the nature of that injury. It can be a reoccurring theme.

I heard the same about Gallagher last year.

If Weber relied on his speed I'd be more concerned. But the guy relies on his absurdly high hockey IQ to always be in position, and plays a power game. Not worried.

 

[nhlfan9191]

I heard the same about Gallagher last year.

If Weber relied on his speed I'd be more concerned. But the guy relies on his absurdly high hockey IQ to always be in position, and plays a power game. Not worried.

Doesn’t matter if he relies on speed or not, this is a speed game and you have to have a certain amount of it to play in this league. If the surgery causes him to dip to low in that department, he can have all the hockey IQ in the world but it won’t save him from looking like a pylon if his body can’t react. Obviously I’m speaking from a hypothetical stand point. He could come back fine. But it’s still very concerning for a player in his mid 30’s signed for many more years to have a body showing early signs of breaking down.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Doesn’t matter if he relies on speed or not, this is a speed game and you have to have a certain amount of it to play in this league. If the surgery causes him to dip to low in that department, he can have all the hockey IQ in the world but it won’t save him from looking like a pylon if his body can’t react. Obviously I’m speaking from a hypothetical stand point. He could come back fine. But it’s still very concerning for a player in his mid 30’s signed for many more years to have a body showing early signs of breaking down.

This fear is irrational. Also, the guy is 32 lol since when did that become mid-30s?

 

[nhlfan9191]

This fear is irrational. Also, the guy is 32 lol since when did that become mid-30s?

He’s going to be 33 at the start of next season. One year shy of mid 30’s, close enough.

 

[habsgirl5000]

If you're advocating the last option, then you're advocating a Buffalo style teardown, deep dive into the basement, 5-10 years at bottom 5. It's a possibility but I just don't think ownership & management is going to go for that.

ownership doesn't have to agree with it....all they need to do is keep MB as GM and we will be there without even trying....that is the road we are currently on

 

[Sorinth]

Personally I doubt we will ever be successful so long as Molson is in charge regardless of whether we tank or go for it with Price and company.

With a good owner/gm I think we could build a team while keeping Price. If we also wanted to keep Weber I think it would be harder, as he's not the guy who you want as your #1 guy so it might be better to trade for a potential one who you can develop into a #1 PMD.

 

[OnTheRun]

What they should do and what they will do are 2 very different things.

They want to make the playoffs next year and they really don't care if they are the 2nd Wildcard or a legit contender. So where does Weber/Price/Max fit into that? If one or all of them are going to be traded it's going to be for roster players. Realistically, the guy they are really burning to move is Galchenyuk and it won't be for picks either, expect the return to be a... hmm... more "mature" player, and one of the kind that fit right in their ideology.

The rest is business as usual, operate around short term gains and hope to strike gold with the picks from 2017&18 to fill the blanks as they go. It's actually not that different than the last 6 years really...